Wedge Loft and bounce

Euphoriasean

Ok so first year playing competition golf and playing off 16(should be higher).

I know it's not the most important aspect of my game right now but in need of new wedges, current ones are fairly rusty and who doesn't like nice shiny clubs.

Currently have 2 vokeys, 60 with 10 degrees of bounce for lob/sand wedge and 50 with 8 degrees of bounce as a gap wedge. Possibly looking at getting 3 wedges. It's probably a personal thing but what loft/bounce combos would you recommend?

Used mack daddy's for a few shots last week and like the feel of them. Would be looking at the MD3 model.

Thanks.

mike12

Find out the loft of your PW.
Then fill in the gaps.
I don't really think u need 3 I use 2 a 52 and a 58.
U would need at least 10 degrees of bounce on the one u are using as a SW.
Less than 8 for the other wedges.

Bottle

Some of the most important things to consider is the distance gapping between PW, GW, SW and LW and what shots you can play or want to play with each. It is also important to consider what ground conditions you will be playing on e.g. parkland or links. I carry a Titleist AP3 PW, Callaway X tour (forged and the feel is class) 50 deg 15 deg bounce, Cleveland RTX 56 deg 14 bounce and a Titleist Vokey 60 deg 4 bounce. I have other ones that I swap in depending on the courses I play, but I tend to take a divot so hence the high bounce, but the vokey gives me great playability from around the green.

There was a Titleist guy doing some wedge fittings a couple of years back, heard great reports then but haven’t heard anything since.

backspin.

In this wet country between 10 and 12 is a good bounce for all wedges imo. Unless you are dealing with very tight lies and you are a good clean chipper of the ball i'd try and stay above 10.

Euphoriasean

Thanks for all the replies. My PW is 45 degrees so gapping wise I could opt for a 52/58 or 50/54/60. I'm much more consistent(well as consistent as a high handicapper can be) with a full shot so I think I would opt for the 3 wedges.

Still a bit confused on the bounce. I play a parkland course so would I be better to opt with 10 degree bounce all around save for the SW at 11/12 degree.

Euphoriasean

backspin. wrote: »

In this wet country between 10 and 12 is a good bounce for all wedges imo. Unless you are dealing with very tight lies and you are a good clean chipper of the ball i'd try and stay above 10.

Sure we haven't seen rain in a week. Costa del Ireland.

Seems like sound advice.

GreeBo

When chipping or pitching do you use the bounce or take a divot?

If you are used to taking a divot then increasing the bounce is gong to take adjustment, likewise if you normally actively use the bounce and you switch to a lower bounce.

I'd worry more about correct gapping tbh.

ShivasIrons

Bounce is your friend

Ronney

Have a gander at this

https://www.vokey.com/tools/wedge-selector-tool.aspx

Have a 47 CB and 52.08, 56.12, 60.04 Vokey set up myself

Never use the 56/60 for full shots.

52 would be my go to for round the Green.
Use the 56 with the Higher bounce out of heavy lies round Green and 60 for most short to medium green side bunkers.


Like having the option of the High and low bounce 56/60 for a range of shots from lies green side

SEORG

My PW is 46
Wedges
50 bounce 10
54 bounce 11
58 bounce 12

My home club is parkland.
Unless you're playing links golf or off of really hard ground off & tight lies I don't see the need for a low bounce wedge, but that's my preference.

As already said, bounce is your friend.

Russman

Op, I’d worry more about the grind on the sole than the actual number for bounce. With the right grind you can still open the face on a relatively high bounce wedge. Likewise a low bounce one can be hard to open if there’s a full sole on it.
Also, even gapping in terms of loft doesn’t necesssrily mean it will translate into even yardage gaps - the only way to know is testing & trial and error.

Now, the controversial bit, purely imho, a 60 degree will cost you more shots than it saves you. It’s such a hard to club to play correctly or “well”, and really should be viewed as only for emergencies. If you have a space in the bag for one, fire away, but be careful not to overuse it.

Euphoriasean

GreeBo wrote: »

When chipping or pitching do you use the bounce or take a divot?

If you are used to taking a divot then increasing the bounce is gong to take adjustment, likewise if you normally actively use the bounce and you switch to a lower bounce.

I'd worry more about correct gapping tbh.

I would normally take a divot when pitching. TBH I don't use the bounce correctly when chipping. Understand the mechanics of it but don't put it into practice.

Think as most people have said I will go for more bounce to begin with. If my game improves to a stage where bounce would make a material impact I could look at changing again.

I suppose I really wanted to confirm the more bounce is required for bunker shots and generally people would use higher bounce on Parkland courses.


Appreciate the replies.

Euphoriasean

Ronney wrote: »

Have a gander at this

https://www.vokey.com/tools/wedge-selector-tool.aspx

Have a 47 CB and 52.08, 56.12, 60.04 Vokey set up myself

Never use the 56/60 for full shots.

52 would be my go to for round the Green.
Use the 56 with the Higher bounce out of heavy lies round Green and 60 for most short to medium green side bunkers.


Like having the option of the High and low bounce 56/60 for a range of shots from lies green side

Thanks. Will definitely take a look.

Euphoriasean

Russman wrote: »

Op, I’d worry more about the grind on the sole than the actual number for bounce. With the right grind you can still open the face on a relatively high bounce wedge. Likewise a low bounce one can be hard to open if there’s a full sole on it.
Also, even gapping in terms of loft doesn’t necesssrily mean it will translate into even yardage gaps - the only way to know is testing & trial and error.

Now, the controversial bit, purely imho, a 60 degree will cost you more shots than it saves you. It’s such a hard to club to play correctly or “well”, and really should be viewed as only for emergencies. If you have a space in the bag for one, fire away, but be careful not to overuse it.

Yeah was looking at grinds. C grind on Callaways would seem to give this variety.

I understand what you mean re the 60 degree. Given I only have a 50 and 60 I would tend to use the 60 quite a bit whereas I could use a 56/58 for the same shot.

I did use it for a miracle shot which crept just over a tree between me and the green and landed within 4 feet. That being said I can't remember the last time I needed to play this shot.

GreeBo

Euphoriasean wrote: »

I would normally take a divot when pitching. TBH I don't use the bounce correctly when chipping. Understand the mechanics of it but don't put it into practice.

Think as most people have said I will go for more bounce to begin with. If my game improves to a stage where bounce would make a material impact I could look at changing again.

I suppose I really wanted to confirm the more bounce is required for bunker shots and generally people would use higher bounce on Parkland courses.


Appreciate the replies.

I wouldn't say more bounce is "required" for bunker shots, but it can certainly help.
I have a mixture of bounces on my wedges, as long as you know what they are and they impact they have, having a mixture is great as you pick the one for the situation.

High bounce on parkland is fine, but there will be a few weeks a year that it could badly (blady? ) catch you out.

Seve OB

GreeBo wrote: »

I wouldn't say more bounce is "required" for bunker shots, but it can certainly help.
I have a mixture of bounces on my wedges, as long as you know what they are and they impact they have, having a mixture is great as you pick the one for the situation.

High bounce on parkland is fine, but there will be a few weeks a year that it could badly (blady? ) catch you out.

i don't really understand bounce and what it does. can you explain it a bit please greebo

GreeBo

Seve OB wrote: »

i don't really understand bounce and what it does. can you explain it a bit please greebo

It raises the leading edge of the club and helps to stop it digging in.

For a bunker shot this means you can hit down without having to worry too much about burying the club in the sand. For the soft ground conditions that we normally play in, it servers the same effect. Less likely to dig in and chunk the shot.

For a tight lie it can mean that you blade the ball if you don't attack the ball with a descending blow.
(Don't stand near a scouper hitting from a tight lie with a lot of bounce)

Its why game improver irons have such wide soles too.

Seve OB

GreeBo wrote: »

It raises the leading edge of the club and helps to stop it digging in.

For a bunker shot this means you can hit down without having to worry too much about burying the club in the sand. For the soft ground conditions that we normally play in, it servers the same effect. Less likely to dig in and chunk the shot.

For a tight lie it can mean that you blade the ball if you don't attack the ball with a descending blow.
(Don't stand near a scouper hitting from a tight lie with a lot of bounce)

Its why game improver irons have such wide soles too.

ok thanks. that makes a bit of sense
ive 3 wedges, but only 2 in my bag atm
52, 56 & 58. all 10 bounce, which would be medium i think.

for gettng spin (don't mean like the pros spinning back yards) but rather to just get the ball to stop reasonably quickly, would more or less bounce be optimal?

GreeBo

Seve OB wrote: »

ok thanks. that makes a bit of sense
ive 3 wedges, but only 2 in my bag atm
52, 56 & 58. all 10 bounce, which would be medium i think.

for gettng spin (don't mean like the pros spinning back yards) but rather to just get the ball to stop reasonably quickly, would more or less bounce be optimal?

Its kinda not related, spin is a function of speed, loft and AoA.

You'll likely get more spin from a bunker with more bounce because you will be less likely to dig deep behind the ball and lose speed. But bounce on its own wont give you more spin.

Are you talking about pitches/chips or full shots btw?

You will see much more spin on short shots if you swing flatter and hit down on the ball *less*. A descending, delofted blow makes it very difficult to get the correct spin loft/compression and produce spin.

Andrew Rice has a nice video on it.
https://www.andrewricegolf.com/andrew-rice-golf/2013/02/compress-the-golf-ball

Seve OB

GreeBo wrote: »

Its kinda not related, spin is a function of speed, loft and AoA.

You'll likely get more spin from a bunker with more bounce because you will be less likely to dig deep behind the ball and lose speed. But bounce on its own wont give you more spin.

Are you talking about pitches/chips or full shots btw?

You will see much more spin on short shots if you swing flatter and hit down on the ball *less*. A descending, delofted blow makes it very difficult to get the correct spin loft/compression and produce spin.

Andrew Rice has a nice video on it.
https://www.andrewricegolf.com/andrew-rice-golf/2013/02/compress-the-golf-ball

i've been struggling lately with shots from 100yards in to say about 60. distance control is not to bad (not perfect - why i'm not pro ) but the bal just seems to roll out an awful lot on me, lots of times right through the green. I know the easy answer is to play it shorter and let it roll ou to the hole, but not always possible if you are playing in over a hazard or a shallow green.
i've had a lesson on it and am working on it, definately improving, but i just though that it might be related to the bounce so figured i'd ask.

AhHaor

https://twitter.com/ClubProGuy/status/988911837419798530

All you need to know about bounce

GreeBo

Seve OB wrote: »

i've been struggling lately with shots from 100yards in to say about 60. distance control is not to bad (not perfect - why i'm not pro ) but the bal just seems to roll out an awful lot on me, lots of times right through the green. I know the easy answer is to play it shorter and let it roll ou to the hole, but not always possible if you are playing in over a hazard or a shallow green.
i've had a lesson on it and am working on it, definately improving, but i just though that it might be related to the bounce so figured i'd ask.

Wandering off topic, but more loft and faster/accelerating swing should help.

Even for a half swing you need to make sure you are accelerating into the ball, a decelerating, scoupy swing will have little spin on the ball.

Though at this time of year with dry, hard greens the ball is going to roll just roll out

Roger_007

Seve OB wrote: »

i've been struggling lately with shots from 100yards in to say about 60. distance control is not to bad (not perfect - why i'm not pro ) but the bal just seems to roll out an awful lot on me, lots of times right through the green. I know the easy answer is to play it shorter and let it roll ou to the hole, but not always possible if you are playing in over a hazard or a shallow green.
i've had a lesson on it and am working on it, definately improving, but i just though that it might be related to the bounce so figured i'd ask.

I've found that the wider the swing arc with my wedges the more spin, or stop, I get. I try to keep my left arm as straight and 'stretched' as possible throughout the swing and aim for contact with the ground about 1 inch beyond the ball. This takes the bounce out of the equation. Also I try to grip the club as loosely as I can so that it can swing naturally through the ball rather than being 'pushed' or forced.

ShivasIrons

GreeBo wrote: »

Its kinda not related, spin is a function of speed, loft and AoA.

You'll likely get more spin from a bunker with more bounce because you will be less likely to dig deep behind the ball and lose speed. But bounce on its own wont give you more spin.

Are you talking about pitches/chips or full shots btw?

You will see much more spin on short shots if you swing flatter and hit down on the ball *less*. A descending, delofted blow makes it very difficult to get the correct spin loft/compression and produce spin.

Andrew Rice has a nice video on it.
https://www.andrewricegolf.com/andrew-rice-golf/2013/02/compress-the-golf-ball

Friction is also a factor in spin, more spin comes from a bunker due to the friction from the sand, digging deep and losing speed is not why it spins less, it's because there's less friction.


Also angle of attack has no effect on spin, hitting down on the ball less or more doesn't increase spin. It's the spin loft you mention which effects spin, spin loft is mostly the difference between the attack angle and the dynamic loft of the club so hitting down on the ball more while increasing the dynamic loft will mean more spin.

Seve OB

Roger_007 wrote: »

I've found that the wider the swing arc with my wedges the more spin, or stop, I get. I try to keep my left arm as straight and 'stretched' as possible throughout the swing and aim for contact with the ground about 1 inch beyond the ball. This takes the bounce out of the equation. Also I try to grip the club as loosely as I can so that it can swing naturally through the ball rather than being 'pushed' or forced.

prety close to what i'm working on

that flat out at bottom of the swing, as mentioned in the video greebo linked to

dan_ep82

Don't forget ball, you won't see much spin from a Pinnacale Gold unless you knife it

GreeBo

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Also angle of attack has no effect on spin, hitting down on the ball less or more doesn't increase spin. It's the spin loft you mention which effects spin, spin loft is mostly the difference between the attack angle and the dynamic loft of the club so hitting down on the ball more while increasing the dynamic loft will mean more spin.

If spin loft is a function of angle of attack and dynamic loft, and spin loft controls spin, how can you say angle of attack has no effect on spin?!

The more you hit down on the ball the harder it is to increase spin loft.
Its very hard to hit down without delofting the club.

spacecoyote

Couple of good videos on the topic of spin Seve

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9HZ79OLx7E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDJCxgKyLBM

ShivasIrons

GreeBo wrote: »

If spin loft is a function of angle of attack and dynamic loft, and spin loft controls spin, how can you say angle of attack has no effect on spin?!

The more you hit down on the ball the harder it is to increase spin loft.
Its very hard to hit down without delofting the club.

Spin loft is the primarily the difference between the angle of attack and dynamic loft. Hitting up or down on the ball won't change the amount a ball spins. It is possible and not that difficult to hit down and add loft.

GreeBo

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Spin loft is the primarily the difference between the angle of attack and dynamic loft. Hitting up or down on the ball won't change the amount a ball spins. It is possible and not that difficult to hit down and add loft.

So angle of attack is different than hitting down on the ball?

ShivasIrons

GreeBo wrote: »

So angle of attack is different than hitting down on the ball?

Angle of attack is a measure of how the club is approaching the ball it can be downward or upward.

RoadRunner

Worn or dirty wedges can reduce stop and hard summer greens will be harder to stop on.

GreeBo

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Angle of attack is a measure of how the club is approaching the ball it can be downward or upward.

Exactly.

So how you can say that hitting down on the ball has no impact on AoA is confusing to me.

ShivasIrons

GreeBo wrote: »

Exactly.

So how you can say that hitting down on the ball has no impact on AoA is confusing to me.

No what I said was hitting down on the ball has no effect on spin.

GreeBo

ShivasIrons wrote: »

No what I said was hitting down on the ball has no effect on spin.

Its the same thing though.

You are saying :

- AoA impacts spin.
- Hitting down (or up) impacts AoA.
- Hitting down doesn't impact spin.

I dont see how this is possible, one of the above statements must be wrong as they conflict.

ShivasIrons

GreeBo wrote: »

Its the same thing though.

You are saying :

- AoA impacts spin.
- Hitting down (or up) impacts AoA.
- Hitting down doesn't impact spin.

I dont see how this is possible, one of the above statements must be wrong as they conflict.

I didn't say angle of attack effects spin, it doesn't.



I did say angle of attack is hitting up or down, that is what angle of attack is.



I did say hitting down doesn't impact spin, because it doesn't.


Angle of attack alone does not effect spin.

GreeBo

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Angle of attack alone does not effect spin.

"alone"?
so it does or it doesn't?

Im genuinely trying to understand what you are saying because anything I have read about spin-loft/compression involves angle of attack.

I didn't say angle of attack effects spin, it doesn't.

Angle of attack alone does not effect spin.

You seem to be contradicting yourself in those two lines?

ShivasIrons

GreeBo wrote: »

"alone"?
so it does or it doesn't?

Im genuinely trying to understand what you are saying because anything I have read about spin-loft/compression involves angle of attack.



You seem to be contradicting yourself in those two lines?

Spin loft is primarily the difference between the attack angle and the dynamic loft, so to increase/decrease spin the spin loft should be increased/decreased. To increase or decrease spin loft the relationship between angle of attack and dynamic loft must be changed.



Let's use an example of a spin loft of 20 degrees, the spin coming from this spin loft will be the same whether the attack angle is up/positive, neutral or down/negative. So changing the attack angle doesn't effect spin. Changing the relationship between the attack angle and dynamic loft will change spin. So it's possible to hit up and have less or more spin and hit down and have less or more spin.


Does that help?

GreeBo

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Spin loft is primarily the difference between the attack angle and the dynamic loft, so to increase/decrease spin the spin loft should be increased/decreased. To increase or decrease spin loft the relationship between angle of attack and dynamic loft must be changed.



Let's use an example of a spin loft of 20 degrees, the spin coming from this spin loft will be the same whether the attack angle is up/positive, neutral or down/negative. So changing the attack angle doesn't effect spin. Changing the relationship between the attack angle and dynamic loft will change spin. So it's possible to hit up and have less or more spin and hit down and have less or more spin.


Does that help?

It doesn't help understanding you saying that hitting down on the ball has no effect on spin.

I understand where spin comes from, I explained it in the post you replied to where you said

angle of attack has no effect on spin, hitting down on the ball less or more doesn't increase spin

Which, in my opinion at least, you keep totally contradicting and did so again in your most recent post.

Spin loft controls spin.
Aoa is one of the things that controls spin loft.

Saying aoa doesn't affect spin or spin loft is just wrong and illogical.

If you are trying to say that the same spin loft will give the same spin regardless of how you achieved that spin loft then that's fine. But aoa is always involved in determining spin loft, ergo spin.

ShivasIrons

GreeBo wrote: »

It doesn't help understanding you saying that hitting down on the ball has no effect on spin.

I understand where spin comes from, I explained it in the post you replied to where you said


Which, in my opinion at least, you keep totally contradicting and did so again in your most recent post.

Spin loft controls spin.
Aoa is one of the things that controls spin loft.

Saying aoa doesn't affect spin or spin loft is just wrong and illogical.

If you are trying to say that the same spin loft will give the same spin regardless of how you achieved that spin loft then that's fine. But aoa is always involved in determining spin loft, ergo spin.

So then how does changing the attack angle change spin? In other words if the attack angle is increased what does spin do? If the attack angle is decreased what does spin do?

GreeBo

ShivasIrons wrote: »

So then how does changing the attack angle change spin? In other words if the attack angle is increased what does spin do? If the attack angle is decreased what does spin do?

It's a combination of AoA and dynamic loft.
If you change the AoA then you change the spin on the ball *unless* you also change the dynamic loft to compensate. Thats possible for some scenarios in the "middle" but not for other. To take it to extremes, if I hit down on the ball 90* then all the dynamic loft in the world isnt going to spin it.

I think its disingenuous to talk about changing the AoA without changing the spin.
The only way you can do this is if you also alter the dynamic loft which is just moving the goalposts of your argument that "angle of attack has no effect on spin, hitting down on the ball less or more doesn't increase spin"


You cant start an example from the spin loft, thats the result.
You start with AoA and Dynamic loft, assuming all other conditions to be the same (friction, ball, etc) and you end up with a spin loft.

Otherwise I could just as easily say Dynamic loft doesnt impact spin, if I have spin loft of 20 then it doesnt matter if I open or close the face as 20 is 20.

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Changing the relationship between the attack angle and dynamic loft will change spin"

You change the relationship by changing your AoA!

You are basically saying that if A + B = C
then changing A will have no impact to the result. But then sneaking in "well as long as you also change B"!

GreeBo

Trackman wrote:

Spin loft is approximately the angle between the dynamic loft and attack angle.

The spin rate of a shot is largely influenced by the spin loft. All else equal, a higher spin loft will result in a higher spin rate

Simply subtracting attack angle from dynamic loft will give a close approximation of the spin loft angle.

I think you are taking the quote below from https://www.ballflightacademy.com/spin-loft-english/ (since it also happens to use 20* in the example!)
"For example, if the player swings down at the ball with above equation and the numbers still equate to 20*, no more spin will be on that golf ball."

But thats not saying that AoA doesn't change spin loft, its saying that 20* spin loft is 20* spin loft, no matter how you get it.