Feelings on the new JC?

maynooth_rules

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/junior-cycle-changes-not-serving-pupils-1.3507391?mode=amp

Interesting when a man who wrote one of the best known textbooks for the new JC feels this way.
Are we just going to sleep walk into the complete downgrading and dumbing down of our junior examinations?

solerina

maynooth_rules wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/junior-cycle-changes-not-serving-pupils-1.3507391?mode=amp

Interesting when a man who wrote one of the best known textbooks for the new JC feels this way.
Are we just going to sleep walk into the complete downgrading and dumbing down of our junior examinations?

Unfortunately I think we are. Having taught the new specification for the last two years I can see that knowledge isn’t really valued, pair work, group worked etc are, they take so long and I can’t see they benefit the majority of students. We are also going to lose a class period from Science in the next year or so. Dumbing down is exactly what is happening. I agree with Peter Lydon.

happywithlife

Yes I think we are sleepwalking into.a dumbed down system
Plus the whole continuous coursework isn't working well in my school at least - strand 2 DEIS. While most students are fairly okay there is a cohert whose attendance is very erratic- making it next to impossible to prepare coursework. Teachers end up pulling them from classes when they are in to get the work done. Subjects with CBA's this year STILL had a terminal summer exam timetabled so no allowance of swapping one for the other in acknowledgement of time pressure for teacher/ exam overload for student
We have a few with massive anxiety issue and one girl in particular hasn't found the CBA beneficial at all as it prolongs her anxiety over the term as opposed to a swift sharp week of it if you know what I mean. And we are not a school that is putting huge emphasis on CBA - it's very much wellbeing over academia
I cleaned out an old press earlier this year and the exam material was of a much higher standard. I think there's going to be a huge knowledge deficit at 3rd level in a few years
I can't get my head around the dept advocating stem subjects on one hand but on the other standing back and allowing science curriculum to be savaged and time allocation reduced !! How does that add up? Typical Irish speaking out of both sides of their mouth
And I know I probably harp on about this but the added cost to teachers - especially those on lower pay- tell me where do get all this poster paper/glue/colours/coloured print/etc in post primary ? There is NO budget for this anywhere but yet it's expected

ETA the only major plus I see is - in my subject at least - an update to the syllabus/specification. Mine was fairly outdated in places

doc_17

What school ever had 5 Science classes per week?

r93kaey5p2izun

My school has 5 periods per week for Science and options. All reduced for the new JC though up to 2nd Years now.

mick kk

Irish oral worth 40% is being abolished.....mickey mouse cba in its place where students can all get "met expectations" as their result.
Ridiculous.

RealJohn

maynooth_rules wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/junior-cycle-changes-not-serving-pupils-1.3507391?mode=amp

Interesting when a man who wrote one of the best known textbooks for the new JC feels this way.
Are we just going to sleep walk into the complete downgrading and dumbing down of our junior examinations?

Yes.
We’ve come to a point where all we do is rattle our respective sabres and then bend over for the government. Everyone knows this is nonsense. Nothing will be done until it’s far, far too late.
The union leaders are spineless and the members are not putting them under any pressure to change that.

Then again, that’s what modern Ireland is, apparently - just shut up and do as you’re told by Leo and his pals and don’t question anything.

I suspect I’d have already left teaching if I could figure a way out that wouldn’t result in a significant pay cut.

doc_17

Tinsley Scarce Hydrant wrote: »

My school has 5 periods per week for Science and options. All reduced for the new JC though up to 2nd Years now.

What do you mean by “and options”?

km79

doc_17 wrote: »

What do you mean by “and options”?

The other optional subjects !
We also had 5 periods in 3rd year until this year

The new science course is an absolute joke

doc_17

km79 wrote: »

The other optional subjects !
We also had 5 periods in 3rd year until this year

The new science course is an absolute joke

Now, I’m not trying to be a dick here but JC Science is JC Science. I’ve never heard of, and still don’t know what, option are? 5 classes per week for Science is 300 hours over the 3 years for a 200 hour syllabus.

silverharp

I'm a dad and we were at a presentation by the school laying out what the new JC would be like. I'd be the first to be generally critical of the dumbing down and bet the average 70's or 80's maths and physics papers would be a shock if they came up today. That being said, they sold it well and my son who is going into second year with enjoy the presentation side of things. I wouldn't want to see this system rolled into the LC though because it would affect real learning and water stuff down.
What is the expectation in terms of gaps? will it mean the jump to the LC will be a little wider? will it in any way affect the LC in terms of content or less difficult exams?

km79

doc_17 wrote: »

Now, I’m not trying to be a dick here but JC Science is JC Science. I’ve never heard of, and still don’t know what, option are? 5 classes per week for Science is 300 hours over the 3 years for a 200 hour syllabus.

Options are the optional subjetcs they choose to pursue outside of the core subjects after first year
We didn't have 5 periods for all 3 years. Just in 3rd year

solerina

Options are the subjects that students get to choose, those that are non mandatory (English, Irish, Maths etc). That's the way they have been referred to in any school I have ever been in anyway

loveroflight

Irish Ed system heading towards very basic education for the masses. So anyone wanting to know enough to bridge gap to courses of any substance will end up funding it totally themselves... What about the others?

loveroflight

silverharp. Huge gap opening up between junior cert and leaving cert higher content. This is already having a dumbing down effect.

r93kaey5p2izun

I meant Science has always had 5 class periods and so have option subjects (Woodwork, Art, Home Ec etc). Science was a 270 hour course, not 200 hours. It's reduced to 200 hours now.

evolving_doors

silverharp wrote: »

I'm a dad and we were at a presentation by the school laying out what the new JC would be like. I'd be the first to be generally critical of the dumbing down and bet the average 70's or 80's maths and physics papers would be a shock if they came up today. That being said, they sold it well and my son who is going into second year with enjoy the presentation side of things. I wouldn't want to see this system rolled into the LC though because it would affect real learning and water stuff down.
What is the expectation in terms of gaps? will it mean the jump to the LC will be a little wider? will it in any way affect the LC in terms of content or less difficult exams?

Keep in mind it's just being rolled out with a few subjects at the moment (your son might escape!).
E.g. With English this year there was a little bit of leeway in allowing some extra student/teacher time to complete... when all subjects are in it'll be mayhem, but maybe settle down after a few years.
I can see the minister suggesting schools open during half term holidays if they're under pressure.

Chilli Con Kearney

It's a joke, we all know it's a joke. We've voiced our concerns, they haven't been listened to and now we move on. In a few years, we will all see what a farce this is and will revert to more academic-based approaches.

That is after the LC has been tinkered with, followed by universities and employers complaining about our graduates and then the big turnaround.

And we will all say "We told you so but you didn't want to listen". Too many vested interested and too much money to be saved in the immediate future from the education budget.

PureClareGold

I actually find the reform quite good. I'm seeing my students engage in areas that they never did before. I'm seeing students being able to show off their talents and have them recognised which the old system never supported. I'm being challenged in my thinking and that is no bad thing. I am working even more closely with my colleagues. Have been through 3 SLARs at this stage and each have been really good. U have learned loads that has helped me in my classroom. I know that's not a popular point of view but it's my experience of it. No more rote learning to beat the exam system. Students are thinking for themselves.

Moody_mona

In terms of "no more rote learning to beat the exam system", my exam has gone from a 65% terminal exam to a 90%, do you not think that goes against your comment?

PureClareGold

Moody_mona wrote: »

In terms of "no more rote learning to beat the exam system", my exam has gone from a 65% terminal exam to a 90%, do you not think that goes against your comment?

No it doesn't the exam in my subject is a different style of exam. The old one championed for rote learning this one asks students to think for themselves which is something I value

Moody_mona

Unfortunately I don't know what my exam style is. Maybe when I see sample papers I'll change my mind.

PureClareGold

Moody_mona wrote: »

Unfortunately I don't know what my exam style is. Maybe when I see sample papers I'll change my mind.

And I think that is part of the problem. When we haven't seen the full roll out it's not very fair to be making assumptions. I hate the phrase being thrown out 'dumbing down'. What does dumb mean? It was something thrown at plenty in school years ago when there wasn't as much understanding about why students couldn't grasp certain things. You're dumb was heard in many classrooms as a means of showing superiority I also find it a bit rich that the author of the letter in the Irish Times is still willing to gain financially by writing a text book. Surely if he felt that strongly his principles would keep him away from anything JCT related.

Moody_mona

PureClareGold wrote: »

And I think that is part of the problem. When we haven't seen the full roll out it's not very fair to be making assumptions.

I agree. Way too early to be singing its praises.

PureClareGold

Moody_mona wrote: »

I agree. Way too early to be singing its praises.

Fair point but still I'm happy. Have noticed my 5th years are way better at constructing extended writing pieces than before because of their portfolio work in JC. Have a bit to do with the length of their answers but they know the structure better than other year groups

RealJohn

I am very much a critic of the new system (and I suspect Moody_Mona and so share a subject) but I will concede that there are some advantages to the new system, currently. I’m concerned though that the positives will diminish more and more with each new subject included. The English got the most benefit because it was new and different from the students’ other subjects and now, the teachers have more experience with the course so they’re better able to handle the extra demands (I would think). Science and business have got away with it this year too, being the next two subjects in but even then, my students were struggling with getting three CBAs done in a reasonable timeframe (those who were doing all three subjects). With Irish in next year, most students will have three CBAs, some four and this will keep increasing until they’re doing what, seven or eight?

Add to that that they still have a terminal exam and, in the case of science, it’s actually a higher percentage of the mark now than for the previous course. I can see the advantages of the new system diminishing rapidly from here on out.

doc_17

km79 wrote: »

Options are the optional subjetcs they choose to pursue outside of the core subjects after first year
We didn't have 5 periods for all 3 years. Just in 3rd year

Thank you. When someone said they had 5 classes for Science and options I thought they whey were talking about that as one subject. With Wellbeing taking 400 hours it’s only Irish, English and Maths that might get 5 classes.

evolving_doors

PureClareGold wrote: »

And I think that is part of the problem. When we haven't seen the full roll out it's not very fair to be making assumptions. I hate the phrase being thrown out 'dumbing down'. What does dumb mean? It was something thrown at plenty in school years ago when there wasn't as much understanding about why students couldn't grasp certain things. You're dumb was heard in many classrooms as a means of showing superiority I also find it a bit rich that the author of the letter in the Irish Times is still willing to gain financially by writing a text book. Surely if he felt that strongly his principles would keep him away from anything JCT related.

I would take a guess that there are a few authors that might be finding it difficult to be too prescriptive considering the pathways to the learning outcomes are so varied and open ended.

Usual... Just wait till the sample papers are out

PureClareGold

evolving_doors wrote: »

I would take a guess that there are a few authors that might be finding it difficult to be too prescriptive considering the pathways to the learning outcomes are so varied and open ended.

Usual... Just wait till the sample papers are out

Can't agree with that. I get where the sentiment is coming from. The old system was so driven by exam papers. The format of our paper with change every year so I can't look at the papers for guidance. I guess I'm just going to have to trust my own judgement as a professional, trust my students and their capabilities and ensure that they have learned what is in the learning outcomes then they will be ready to tackle whatever they are asked on.

Chilli Con Kearney

I have to say that I really wonder about this idea of self-directed or independent learning, where we ask 14 year old to grasp responsibility for their learning and project work.

I believe it goes against all in modern society, where young children are less autonomous and have less freedom than previous generations. These children have their lives micro managed and organised for them - told when to get up, brought to school, told when to go training, when to do homework, when they are allowed outside, told what to eat, what to wear. They have so little genuine freedom yet we are expected to get them to learn independently? I have serious reservations about our ability to deliver on this principle.

spurious

Disaster for marginalised children, such as those in special primary schools (not children with special needs) or detention centres.
It's almost as if nobody even considered them in the rush to save money.
Oh wait....

maynooth_rules

My child minder was questioning me yesterday on the new JC. Her child has just completed first year and she is now concerned about the standard of the new JC (think her daughter did English and science as part of the new JC) . I have a feeling that within the next two years there will be a lot of parents who will be highlighting their problems with the new JC. A bit too late unfortunately.

2011abc

The Great Dumbing Down .Squeeze As many as possible into the middle and to hell with the rest ...Sad times .

Icsics

maynooth_rules wrote: »

My child minder was questioning me yesterday on the new JC. Her child has just completed first year and she is now concerned about the standard of the new JC (think her daughter did English and science as part of the new JC) . I have a feeling that within the next two years there will be a lot of parents who will be highlighting their problems with the new JC. A bit too late unfortunately.

Wait until she starts seeing meaningless CBAs on reports & even more meaningless 'grade bands'

mtoutlemonde

Icsics wrote: »

Wait until she starts seeing meaningless CBAs on reports & even more meaningless 'grade bands'

And the charge into the school to see why her little darling wasn't exceptional.
Let alone the 'In line with expectations and Yet to meet expectations' - explain that to someone who is used to and got A,B and C's in their own education.

Icsics

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

And the charge into the school to see why her little darling wasn't exceptional.
Let alone the 'In line with expectations and Yet to meet expectations' - explain that to someone who is used to and got A,B and C's in their own education.

Oh they'll be charging in before that to complain about the 'group' their child is in for CBAs & get them moved !

threetrees

I have a child starting 1st year in September. Most subjects are Junior Cycle now. Can I ask, will there still be Junior Cycle exams in June 2021?

So the June exam combined with project work, oral language, classroom based assesments etc will total to give the new grades?

mtoutlemonde

threetrees wrote: »

I have a child starting 1st year in September. Most subjects are Junior Cycle now. Can I ask, will there still be Junior Cycle exams in June 2021?

So the June exam combined with project work, oral language, classroom based assesments etc will total to give the new grades?

There will in some subjects - may not affect your child depending on their choices.
English has been examined for the past two years.
Science, Business Studies and I think Irish have their second year CBAs done this year so exam next year.
Languages are being introduced for second years this year. I don't know anymore - I'm sure there is a list somewhere.

To answer your second question - yes.

threetrees

Thank you for that detailed reply!

Icsics

threetrees wrote: »

I have a child starting 1st year in September. Most subjects are Junior Cycle now. Can I ask, will there still be Junior Cycle exams in June 2021?

So the June exam combined with project work, oral language, classroom based assesments etc will total to give the new grades?

All exams are worth 90%. First CBA completed in 2nd yr is awarded a 'descriptor' by the teacher & this will appear on ur child's 'JC Achievement Cert'. Second CBA in 3rd yr is worth 10% & corrected by an examiner

freedominacup

silverharp wrote: »

I'm a dad and we were at a presentation by the school laying out what the new JC would be like. I'd be the first to be generally critical of the dumbing down and bet the average 70's or 80's maths and physics papers would be a shock if they came up today. That being said, they sold it well and my son who is going into second year with enjoy the presentation side of things. I wouldn't want to see this system rolled into the LC though because it would affect real learning and water stuff down.
What is the expectation in terms of gaps? will it mean the jump to the LC will be a little wider? will it in any way affect the LC in terms of content or less difficult exams?

Another dad here. My second lad has just finished jc exams. Next child going into second year in Sept. I'm at a loss to understand the entire concept of this exam system. It's obviously given no regard by the education system when for the second year in a row my kids had to select their leaving cert subjects in January of third year. Surely if this exam had any merit subject choices for leaving cert would be delayed until jc results were known and students actual strengths were tested. I'm pretty certain my next child will not sit any terminal exam at the end of third year as in my experience as a student and as a parent it's worthless.

happywithlife

Icsics wrote: »

All exams are worth 90%. First CBA completed in 2nd yr is awarded a 'descriptor' by the teacher & this will appear on ur child's 'JC Achievement Cert'. Second CBA in 3rd yr is worth 10% & corrected by an examiner

Incorrect. Home Ec is being rolled out this sept and their practical compentent has increased to 50% and terminal exam is 50% with 2 CBA's

happywithlife

threetrees wrote: »

I have a child starting 1st year in September. Most subjects are Junior Cycle now. Can I ask, will there still be Junior Cycle exams in June 2021?

So the June exam combined with project work, oral language, classroom based assesments etc will total to give the new grades?

As mtoutlemonde said but I'd add that CBA - Classroom Based Assessments - get a descriptor not a grade. So "yet to meet expectations" "in line with expectations" and so forth

We asked at induction day how this will all play out re results and basically I can't see much a way around it only that you'll end up in time with a 2-3 page results portfolio detailing the grades awarded by SEC and CBA descriptors - and that's assuming they get the timeline sorted. Think our TY'S were nearly graduating by the time they got the school bssed certificate this year but as far as i know the intention is they should go together down the line. (Open to correction of course)

thegreatescape

happywithlife wrote: »

Incorrect. Home Ec is being rolled out this sept and their practical compentent has increased to 50% and terminal exam is 50% with 2 CBA's

The practical component has always been 50% with 35% composing of the practical food exam and 15% for textiles. Textiles is now CBA 1 in 2nd year with CBA 2 in food prepping students for their now 50% food practical exam.

threetrees

Thank you for all that info. Wow CBA in 2nd year, seems so soon and yet good to have a portion under your belt before the June exam.

thegreatescape

threetrees wrote: »

Thank you for all that info. Wow CBA in 2nd year, seems so soon and yet good to have a portion under your belt before the June exam.

You're very welcome! It'll be interesting to see how it plays out with the new specification.

happywithlife

threetrees wrote: »

Thank you for all that info. Wow CBA in 2nd year, seems so soon and yet good to have a portion under your belt before the June exam.

Another thing to be aware of is that most subjects will now be examined as a common level rather than the old pass/higher.
That will cause huge consternation imo going into higher level leaving

evolving_doors

threetrees wrote: »

Thank you for all that info. Wow CBA in 2nd year, seems so soon and yet good to have a portion under your belt before the June exam.

From what I can gather (feel free to correct) the CBA's won't count as part of the 3rd year June final exam grade, the students will instead receive a banding along with their exam grade i.e.

• Failed to meet expectations
• Met Expectations
• Exceeded expectations

What does happen in some subjects is that students receive an Assessment Task (AT) which is basically a reflection style essay/paragraphs on the 2nd CBA they have undertaken in 3rd year. This is collected by the teacher and shipped off to the SEC to be corrected and worth 10% ... the written June exam will be worth 90%.

e.g. have a look at the video for the Business Studies course in the Assessment section https://www.jct.ie/business_studies/an_overview_of_assessment_for_junior_cycle
The other subjects are here so click on any of them then look for the Assessment section. https://www.jct.ie/home/home.php

Not all subjects are like this though.

solerina

threetrees wrote: »

Thank you for all that info. Wow CBA in 2nd year, seems so soon and yet good to have a portion under your belt before the June exam.

Not really, for instance in science we used to have 10% for completion of the mandatory experiments and a further 25% for coursework B which was worthwhile experimental work. Now we have a waste of time CBA in second year which takes 3 weeks and is worth 0% followed by another CBA in third year worth 10%. There was a much larger portion done under the old system.

Nellieelephant

I’m glad to see some parents are now understanding the concerns that teachers have been shouting about since the introduction of the new JC. Is education in Ireland taking a backward step . CBAs now instead of ABCs! I just can’t wait to see all these three week block of CBAs in action for all subjects - but we are told not to worry about them and they are only a snapshot in time.

MathsManiac

solerina wrote: »

Not really, for instance in science we used to have 10% for completion of the mandatory experiments and a further 25% for coursework B which was worthwhile experimental work. Now we have a waste of time CBA in second year which takes 3 weeks and is worth 0% followed by another CBA in third year worth 10%. There was a much larger portion done under the old system.

As previously pointed out, the second CBA is not 'worth 10%'. You may be confusing it with the 'Assessment Task', which is based on it.

Anyway, your assertion that these are 'worth 0%' is not how I would view it. The CBAs and the SEC final exam results will both appear with equal prominence on the 'profile of achievement', which is the nearest equivalent of the old 'cert'. I'm not sure then on what basis you are saying that the CBAs are worth 0%. Sure, they are not being combined with the SEC results to form an overall result, but I could equally well say that the SEC results are worth 0% because they don't contribute to the CBAs.

The CBAs might well tell you more about the student's real capabilities than their exam results. It seems likely that these assessments are at least telling you something quite different about the student than the exam result is. The fact that the CBAs take place over a longer period of time than an exam suggests that, if they are managed properly by the teacher, they can be an authentic reflection of the student's competence at whatever they are about. I suspect that a wise person looking at the profile of achievement might well pay more attention to the CBAs than the exam results. Since they are not being combined according to any formula, the weighting of these two types of assessment relative to each other is in the eye of the beholder.