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The Prehistoric Croc Thread- Anything crocodilian related

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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,508 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Fathom wrote: »
    These organisms evolved? Did not suffer extinction as many species of dinosaurs?
    Two land crocs , Quinkana and Pallimnarchus may have survived until humans arrived in Australia.

    Pallimnarchus was the size of a salty :eek:


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Adam Khor


    Two land crocs , Quinkana and Pallimnarchus may have survived until humans arrived in Australia.

    Pallimnarchus was the size of a salty :eek:

    One of the Quinkana species was about that size too. I think there's even a cave painting somewhere in Australia depicting it.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,508 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Fathom wrote: »
    Why prehistoric larger than today?
    Koolasuchus was a half ton amphibian with a similar lifestyle to crocs. Lived down in Antarctica back in the day.

    vtfawq79c7111.jpg
    https://i.redd.it/vtfawq79c7111.jpg


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Adam Khor


    Koolasuchus was a half ton amphibian with a similar lifestyle to crocs. Lived down in Antarctica back in the day.

    vtfawq79c7111.jpg
    https://i.redd.it/vtfawq79c7111.jpg

    It would appear that it took advantage of the low temperatures that prevented crocodilians from colonizing those antarctic river systems. As soon as the temperatures rise and crocodilian fossils start appearing in those regions, Koolasuchus vanishes. :(

    The closest thing we have to it today are the giant salamanders (Andrias) found in China and Japan. Also ambush predators, but at 1.5-1.8 m, nowhere near as large as their long extinct cousin.

    D_cndwTU8AIAbdD.jpg

    chinese-giant-salamander.jpg

    Andrias_japonicus_pair.jpg


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,508 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Fathom wrote: »
    Food chain competition?
    Sharks in the estuaries and rivers,
    Salties and fresh water crocs.
    And the giant lizard megalania running about the place too
    And a 10m snake, the Bluff Downs giant python ambushing at water holes.

    With some overlap in niches.


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Adam Khor


    Reading up on Pallimnarchus and it seems like it may have been even bigger than salties.

    This is from a 2012 article reporting on a possible Pallimnarchus find:
    University of New South Wales palaeontologists who found the fragment of crocodile jaw state that this individual was at least eight metres long and there may have been others of its kind that were even larger, perhaps reaching the size of Sarcosuchus, a twelve metre long Crocodylian that lived during the Late Cretaceous geological period and preyed on dinosaurs.

    (Note that they make a mistake here, as Sarcosuchus lived in the early Cretaceous, not late Cretaceous)
    The fossil was discovered by undergraduate Bok Khoo from the University of New South Wales on July 10th, it is part of the lower jaw (dentary). The fossil bearing strata consists of several layers which represent ancient river deposits. The dig site is close to the current course of the Liechardt River and the sediment is disturbed when the water levels rise and this helps to expose new fossil finds. The river may help reveal fossil material but being close to the river does have its drawbacks. The location is known for its Saltwater and Freshwater crocodiles as well as sharks and sting rays. The field team have to be wary of attacks from extant crocodiles as they search for the fossilised remains of extinct ones.
    Gilbert Price, a palaeontologist with Queensland University has commented that the jaw bone represents a substantial individual, one crocodile that was very probably an apex predator in the region. The fossil has yet to be accurately dated, it belongs to either the Pleistocene or the earlier Pliocene Epoch. The Pliocene ended approximately 1.6 million years ago, the Pleistocene Epoch followed and lasted until approximately 10,000 years ago. The fossil is eroded, a result of the river action and the teeth have been lost but the tooth sockets which measure up to four centimetres in diameter indicate that this predator had very large, conical-shaped teeth.

    Professor Mike Archer of the University of New South Wales described the fossil as “weird” and he could not rule out that this fossil find could represent a new species.

    The bite marks of the largest known species, Pallimnarchus pollens, have been found on the bones of the giant marsupial Diprotodon, which grew as large as a modern rhinoceros and would've been the largest available prey:

    Diprotodon-size-compared-.jpg?itok=ZFkLZn9f


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Adam Khor


    https://palaeo-electronica.org/content/2019/2602-mourasuchus-amazonensis

    fig-2-full.png

    mourasuchus-size.jpg

    Mourasuchus was a contemporary of the better known Purussaurus, and like it, a member of the caimanine group of the Alligatoridae family. It was also a giant, growing to maybe around 10, possibly up to 12 m long, but its small teeth and skull structure would suggest it was specialized in much smaller prey, maybe even by filter-feeding, fullfilling a role similar to that of the filter-feeding Stomatosuchus of the Cretaceous.

    This would've allowed it to coexist with the equally large Purussaurus and Gryposuchus without competing for food with them.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Adam Khor


    These little land crocodiles of the Cretaceous may have had a greater ability to vocalize than modern day kinds.

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0195667118304051?via%3Dihub

    1-s2.0-S0195667118304051-fx1_lrg.jpg


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Adam Khor


    Mystery of Mystriosaurus:

    https://www.sachspal.de/mystriosaurus/

    life-reconstruction-of-mystriosaurus.jpg


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Adam Khor


    The so called "Crocodylus bugtiensis", a giant crocodilian found in Oliocene Pakistan fossil sites, has been renamed as Astorgosuchus bugtiensis, as it was found to be more distantly related to modern crocodiles than thought, and possibly closer to Asiatosuchus.

    This creature would've been around 7-8 m long, with very robust jaws and teeth. Its bite marks have been found on the bones of Paraceratherium/Indricotherium, formerly considered the largest land mammal of all times.

    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02724634.2019.1671427?journalCode=ujvp20


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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,508 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Adam Khor wrote: »
    This creature would've been around 7-8 m long, with very robust jaws and teeth.
    we've all seen a saltie yada, yada, yada , whatever

    Its bite marks have been found on the bones of Paraceratherium/Indricotherium

    It had a 30 tonne rhino on the menu :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Adam Khor


    Giant caiman Purussaurus mirandai had special adaptations to better support its weight on land; it would've been able to walk and move about like modern crocodilians despite weighing maybe up to 3 tons (Purussaurus brasiliensis was even bigger).

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-50827002

    Purussaurus-mirandai-r.jpg

    22343222-7800355-An_ancient_crocodile_species_that_weighed_up_to_three_tonnes_had-a-8_1576572926340-c044.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&zoom=1&resize=644,208&ssl=1


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Adam Khor


    Brazil's first ornithosuchid, Dynamosuchus. It would've been over 2 m long and is suggested to have been a scavenger (why not an opportunist like most meat eaters though?)

    https://api.nationalgeographic.com/distribution/public/amp/science/2020/02/rare-fossil-bone-crushing-crocodile-cousin-found-brazil

    01_dynamosuchuscollisensi.adapt.1190.1.jpg

    02_dynamosuchus.adapt.1190.1.jpg


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Adam Khor


    Giant teleosaurid remains found in Colombia.

    https://mostlymammoths.wordpress.com/2020/03/01/enormous-crocodylomorph-discovered-in-colombia-dirley-cortes/

    screen-shot-2020-02-24-at-5.22.19-pm.png?w=1200&h=800&crop=1

    Teleosaurids were a group of crocodylomorphs that roamed the oceans during the Jurassic and early Cretaceous. They include the largest known sea crocodile of all times (and largest crocodile of the Jurassic), Machimosaurus, which is believed to have reached 9-11 m long and was apparently quite widespread and long-lived as a genus. Bite marks of Machimosaurus have been found on the fossilized bones of sauropod dinosaurs from the Jurassic, but its long, slender jaws would suggest aquatic prey was the basis of its diet.

    The Colombian remains may belong to a Machimosaurus.
    Preserved for approximately 120 million years in a calcareous concretion, it was discovered in Villa de Leyva by Carlos Gonzalez. It is a partial fossil, albeit very well preserved. The state of the armoured plates (known as “osteoderms”), dorsal ribs, dorsal centra and metapodial elements indicate rapid burial shortly after death. The species of this fossil is unknown as neither teeth nor cranial elements were found. Several ammonites found in association with this fossil indicate its age, and the surrounding sediment suggests that when this crocodylomorph met its end, the area may have been a “a salt tidal flat depositional environment.”

    Studying the microscopic structure of the bone (“osteohistology”) provided fascinating insight into the life of this creature. The size of the bones discovered, as well as the density of blood vessels within those bones, indicates that this reptile was an enormous creature. But even the 9.6-meter estimate is conservative, because larger vertebrae for this specific animal may have existed, but they were not preserved in the concretion.

    Further osteohistological research revealed lines within the osteoderms. Much like the rings of a tree, the rings in a proboscidean tusk or information contained with fossil teeth, paleontologists can read these lines to infer whether this reptile experienced times of famine and hardship, as well as how seasons may have affected its level of activity or overall health.

    Unfused neurocentral sutures suggested the fossil was an adult, but not one that was fully mature at the time of its death.

    Machimosaurus_sp.jpg


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Adam Khor


    Fossil of small pholidosaur Crocodilaemus robustus found in France. The creature was not even a year old at the moment of death and measured around 56 cm. It would've lived at about the same time as Archaeopteryx and Compsognathus, in a shallow lagoon. Initially believed to be a juvenile, a deeper study of its osteology suggests it was actually fully grown.

    Pholidosaurs are the group of crocodile-like reptiles that eventually gave rise to the colossal Sarcosuchus imperator which could grow up to 11 m long or more.

    Article is in French:

    https://www.museedesconfluences.fr/fr/ressources/crocodile-fossile

    20015641_02_0.jpg?itok=uTGkN9DL


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Adam Khor


    Baurusuchids as top predators in Cretaceous Brazil?
    Theropod dinosaurs were relatively scarce in the Late Cretaceous ecosystems of southeast Brazil. Instead, hypercarnivorous crocodyliforms known as baurusuchids were abundant and probably occupied the ecological role of apex predators

    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/joa.13192

    Baurusuchids have been called "theropod mimics", as they didn´t have the powerful, crushing bite of modern crocodilians but instead a weaker bite but sharper, blade-like teeth much like the majority of carnivorous theropods, or modern Komodo dragons. They would've been more terrestrial and probably more active and agile than modern crocodilians.

    images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTHyn3S5fQGfaLPSzjGOXJ04veRPUY3rbIzs-ppgEouMbI1yAy7&usqp=CAU


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Adam Khor


    Cretaceous croc Bernissartia, which coexisted with Iguanodon, was near the base of the modern crocodile family tree, study suggests:

    https://www.naturalsciences.be/en/news/item/19011

    News_Bernissartia_fagesii_01_EN.jpg?itok=E_VQ22sc


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,508 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Adam Khor wrote: »
    Baurusuchids as top predators in Cretaceous Brazil?

    ...
    They would've been more terrestrial and probably more active and agile than modern crocodilians.
    Quinkana was fairly modern

    It's amazing to think that some people consider Australia as a place where everything is out to get you and yet the first humans there faced real monsters.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Adam Khor


    Quinkana was fairly modern

    It's amazing to think that some people consider Australia as a place where everything is out to get you and yet the first humans there faced real monsters.

    Indeed, including not just Quinkana but also the even larger Pallimnarchus, plus all the other non-crocodilian beauties!


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Adam Khor


    Phytosaurs (Triassic reptiles that were not crocodilians but similar in ecology and body plan, having existed before true crocs) may have cared for their young, suggests fossil aggregation from India :

    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02724634.2019.1726361?journalCode=ujvp20

    3752067079_9fc16f3ab1.jpg


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Adam Khor


    Mysterious tracks from Korea, once believed to belong to a bipedal pterosaur, identified as those of 3 m long, bipedal crocodylomorphs- a first for the Cretaceous period!

    https://www.sciencefocus.com/news/ancient-crocodile-may-have-walked-on-hind-legs-just-like-a-dinosaur/

    featureimage-2-2e55273.jpg?webp=true&quality=90&resize=940%2C399


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Adam Khor


    Adaptations of the thalattosuchians (sea crocodiles) from dinosaur times revealed by fossil scan:

    https://phys.org/news/2020-06-high-tech-ct-reveals-ancient-evolutionary.html


    hightechctre.jpg


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Adam Khor


    A crocodile from the Miocene of Africa, Crocodylus cecchiai, seems to be at the base of the American crocodile linneage, confirming that the four New World crocodiles (Orinoco, American, Cuban and Morelet's) are descended from African ones.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-68482-5#disqus_thread

    41598_2020_68482_Fig1_HTML.jpg?as=webp


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Adam Khor


    New Deinosuchus paper soon to be released will apparently put together everything we know about this giant alligatoroid, including new discoveries that show we've been reconstructing it wrong all these years. It wouldn´t look as crocodile-like as the original museum mounts, such as these:

    images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcSyqlagyavofmRfevluC7xDwOIQSDiIZdk5Wg&usqp=CAU

    instead having a large overbite and bulbous nose somewhat reminiscent of the unrelated pholidosaur Sarcosuchus. It would've looked more like this:

    EeCeW-0XkAIn8Qp?format=jpg&name=small

    Although related to modern alligator and caiman, Deinosuchus (formerly also known as Phobosuchus) was tolerant of brackish and saltwater and is believed to have travelled across the Western Interior Seaway that split North America in half, being present in both the western and eastern coasts. There's good evidence that it fed on dinosaurs among other prey.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Adam Khor


    The study on Deinosuchus is out. It confirms its identity as an alligatoroid, erects a new species (D. schwimmeri) and describes new material showing it had a long snout with a greatly enlarged nose and mysterious fenestrae of unknown function at the tip, although seemingly connected to the sinuses.

    The animal does seem to have had a super powerful bite and "banana-sized" teeth and there's direct evidence of its preying on dinosaurs. One could say its legend is untouched.

    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/02724634.2020.1767638

    6-newstudyconf.jpg


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Adam Khor


    Juvenile Purussaurus (giant caiman from the Miocene) fed on ground sloth, evidence shows.
    https://www.tunisiesoir.com/science/researchers-discover-prehistoric-43ft-crocodile-with-more-powerful-bite-than-t-rex-23694-2020/

    https://www.meionorte.com/curiosidades/fossil-revela-que-crocodilo-tinha-a-mordida-mais-forte-ja-registrada-395992

    Researchers-discover-prehistoric-43ft-crocodile-with-more-powerful-bite-than-T-Rex-696x464.jpg

    An adult Purussaurus (which could grow up to 10 m long or more) was among the largest, if not the largest crocodilian known- had a bite 20 times as powerful as a great white shark's, and likely even more powerful than a T. rex's.

    150227011710_sp_cocodrilo_624x351_titoaureliano.jpg

    cs7_vnor.jpg

    340?cb=20120626114659


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Adam Khor


    Ogresuchus furtatus ("stolen ogre crocodile") a Cretaceous croc from Spain, is finally described after seven years, having been stolen from the dig site and eventually recovered. It turns out to be the earliest and smallest known sebecid, member of a linneage that would survive the KT extinction and eventually give rise to formidable land predators with serrated, theropod-like teeth. The largest of the sebecids were around 6-7 m long (with even 9 m suggested for the Miocene Barinasuchus at one point).

    Interesting thing about Ogresuchus is that it was found at a dinosaur's nesting site, which strongly suggests dinosaur eggs and hatchlings may have been part of this cat-sized predator's diet.

    Article is in Spanish.

    https://mundo.sputniknews.com/ciencia/202009181092815174-un-fosil-robado-en-los-pirineos-cambia-la-historia-evolutiva-de-los-cocodrilos/

    1092814885_5:2:1905:967_768x0_80_0_1_f60282b89ee7394fc03ff924ffd3b6db.jpg.webp

    Descubierto-en-los-Pirineos-un-nuevo-cocodrilo-extinto-a-partir-de-un-fosil-robado.jpg


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Adam Khor


    African crocodiles swam into the Mediterranean and colonized southern Europe.

    The article is in Spanish.

    Millions of years ago, several genera and species of crocodiles lived in Europe, and occassionally coexisted with each other. Among these, however, it was considered unlikely that the genus Crocodylus, of African origin, had ever lived in the Mediterranean.

    The remains found in the Italian regions of Gargano, Tuscany and Scontrone during the last decades however confirm that they did. Now, a study published by the Journal of Paleontology supports this with more fossils of three-meter long crocodiles found at the Valencian fossil site Venta del Moro, dug up by researchers of the University of Valencia between 1995 and 2006- and which they assigned at one point to the species Crocodylus chechhiai.

    Our comparisons show this material does not belong to the genera Duplocynodon- an alligatoroid genus similar to today's caiman- or Tomistoma- the false gharials-, the only other crocodilians known for the late Miocene of Europe.

    However, due to the fragmentary nature of the remains, the analysis of the skull bones, isolated teeth and osteoderms (bone plates) suggests they could belong to the species C. checchiai, as originally assigned, but its taxonomy is still unclear. In any case the morphology fits genus Crocodylus.

    The remains would be the first Crocodylus from the Iberian penninsula and support the expansion of this genus from Africa to Europe during the late Miocene. The discovery of two individuals rather than one indicates there was a population at the site (as opposed to a vagrant that ended up away from home).

    In their "conquest", these reptiles expanded particularly around the Mediterranean, as the remains have been found in Spain and Italy. All locations where crocodilians have been found were back then near the northern coastline of the Mediterranean, thus making it easy to access by crocodiles traveling by sea.

    They are likely to have inhabited the coasts of Murcia and Andalusia, and perhaps even Catalunya and the Balearic islands.

    But how did crocodiles arrive from the African coasts? The researchers suggest they swam from one continent to the next before Africa and Europe were connected. This idea would be supported by modern crocodile behavior, as they are good swimmers that can reach up to 32 km/h.

    An example is today's saltwater crocodile (Crocodylus porosus), which goes far into the open sea reaching islands and even continents, as has happened between Oceania and the south east of Asia. One needs only see how easily they have traveled to even the Solomon islands of the French Polynesia.

    But there are more clues that support the hypothesis. The anatomical similarities suggest Crocodylus checchiai, of Lybia and Kenya, is the ancestor of American crocodiles. This suggests crocodiles even crossed the Atlantic during the Miocene, explaining the presence of the genus in the New World.

    As such, in the case of the Venta del Moro specimens, swimming between Africa and Europe would not have taken them a particularly great effort.


    Cocodrilo.jpg


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Adam Khor


    Giant alligatoroid Deinosuchus was just as long as T. rex and twice as heavy:

    https://www.hakaimagazine.com/news/when-deinosuchus-ruled-the-earth/

    Deinosuchus%2B2016%2BWitton%2Blow%2Bres.jpg


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