Dublin Bus to go cashless in two years and new bus colours

bk

Article on RTE News today:

https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2018/0515/963675-leap-card/

The process to start moving to cashless, including contactless debit cards and smartphone payments to start in two years time.

Also some talk about the new NTA colour scheme for buses, seems to suggest all Go Ahead buses will have it and that it will also be rolled out to Dublin Bus as new buses enter service with them.

Nermal

However NTA chief executive Anne Graham says it will be around two years before cashless operations start to be introduced on Dublin Bus.

Existing machines will haveto be updated to be able to process credit cards and mobile phone technology as well as Leap cards.

Or we could just implement it tomorrow, and tell people to get a bloody leap card.

bk

Nermal wrote: »

Or we could just implement it tomorrow, and tell people to get a bloody leap card.

Well far more people have contactless debit cards then Leap cards and they are far easier for casual (non monthly/annual ticket) users to use then Leap, which is a bit painful and silly for casual users.

In London contactless debit card support was a pre-requisite before they got rid of cash. It helps make the transition much easier.

I'm hoping they come much sooner then this 2 year time line.

n97 mini

Nermal wrote: »

Or we could just implement it tomorrow, and tell people to get a bloody leap card.

Went the wrong direction with Leap. Should have gone straight to contactless debit cards. Every adult already has one.

Mint Sauce

Any word on a flat rate/fare?

LeinsterDub

n97 mini wrote: »

Went the wrong direction with Leap. Should have gone straight to contactless debit cards. Every adult already has one.

They didn't in 2011 when it was launched and certainly not in 2009 or earlier as it was being developed.

We should of just ask TFL how much they wanted to license Oyster which is nearly 15 years old now.

Quackster

Deciding who takes the hit on offline tag-ons (eg on buses) with debit/credit cards that are subsequently declined will have to be ironed out.

Mrs OBumble

n97 mini wrote: »

Went the wrong direction with Leap. Should have gone straight to contactless debit cards. Every adult already has one.

Ahh, nope.

You'd be surprised to learn how many don't have bank accounts.

There's a whole social underbelly that's over represented among public transport users.

Victor

bk wrote: »

The process to start moving to cashless, including contactless debit cards and smartphone payments to start in two years time.

I think the point is cashless buses which **allow** payment via card, as opposed to cashfree buses which **don't** allow payment by coin. https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/buses/cash-free-buses

Mint Sauce wrote: »

Any word on a flat rate/fare?

The current expectation is a two-fare system, one (very) short and one long.

CPTM

Nermal wrote: »

Or we could just implement it tomorrow, and tell people to get a bloody leap card.

I'm all about going contactless. I use my leap card and I tap my credit card for everything. But shouldn't there be an option for tourists who wish to use coins instead of buying a leap card for a city trip?

markpb

CPTM wrote: »

I'm all about going contactless. I use my leap card and I tap my credit card for everything. But shouldn't there be an option for tourists who wish to use coins instead of buying a leap card for a city trip?

When I’m visiting other cities, I find it much more convenient to buy their transit card instead of having cash. If nothing else, there’s a belief that it’s easier to let the card figure out the fare instead of buying a ticket and finding out later that you’ve bought the wrong one.

eeguy

CPTM wrote: »

I'm all about going contactless. I use my leap card and I tap my credit card for everything. But shouldn't there be an option for tourists who wish to use coins instead of buying a leap card for a city trip?

Not really. Maybe a card dispenser they can top up, and a contactless app and contactless debit card.

Poxyshamrock

markpb wrote: »

CPTM wrote: »

I'm all about going contactless. I use my leap card and I tap my credit card for everything. But shouldn't there be an option for tourists who wish to use coins instead of buying a leap card for a city trip?

When I’m visiting other cities, I find it much more convenient to buy their transit card instead of having cash. If nothing else, there’s a belief that it’s easier to let the card figure out the fare instead of buying a ticket and finding out later that you’ve bought the wrong one.

If it works in London I don’t see why it can’t work in Dublin.

Victor

CPTM wrote: »

I'm all about going contactless. I use my leap card and I tap my credit card for everything. But shouldn't there be an option for tourists who wish to use coins instead of buying a leap card for a city trip?

There are Leap Visitor Cards to cover this market https://about.leapcard.ie/leap-visitor-card

Cookie_Monster

bk wrote: »

that it will also be rolled out to Dublin Bus as new buses enter service with them.

that's a pity, it should be on all NTA owned buses when due for re-painting, not just new ones.

Stephen15

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

that's a pity, it should be on all NTA owned buses when due for re-painting, not just new ones.

I would imagine buses currently in DB livery will be repainted into the common livery when being repainted too.

Stephen15

There's Fianna Fail complaining about Dublin Bus being rebranded TFI not surprised going by their logic the party that hates efficiency of any kind.

circadian

Cashless is a good move.

One thing I can't understand as it's implemented elsewhere is single tickets for all modes of transport.

In.plenty of cities you can get on a bus/tram/ferry or whatever. Buy a ticket for the zones you're travelling in and it's valid for all modes of public transport and expires after say 90 minutes. Public transport n Dublin is unbelievably expensive in comparison, even if you have a monthly leap card that gets you everything.

FishOnABike

n97 mini wrote: »

Went the wrong direction with Leap. Should have gone straight to contactless debit cards. Every adult already has one.

Unless your contactless debit card has stopped working (again). I'm on my third one now, due to my card being damaged (again) by a faulty ATM or POS card reader which has physically damaged my card.

Wishbone Ash

Nermal wrote: »

.... and tell people to get a bloody leap card.

Why? I get a bus about once a month. I couldn't be arsed with the hassle of getting and carrying around a leap card for that.

n97 mini wrote: »

Went the wrong direction with Leap. Should have gone straight to contactless debit cards. Every adult already has one.

Every adult? Neither of my parents have a debit/credit card and I know many others who don't either.

Nermal

CPTM wrote: »

I'm all about going contactless. I use my leap card and I tap my credit card for everything. But shouldn't there be an option for tourists who wish to use coins instead of buying a leap card for a city trip?

No. Watching tourists (and locals) fumbling for change is just awful. The minutes of my life tick by while Brad is squinting doubtfully at a 5c coin, and that's after he has negotiated his fare with the driver... Get a bloody leap card or start walking.

SeamusCarbad

No tourist want to use coins only tbh, and they don't need to use that anywhere. (To be honest the transport system in Dublin is not that tourist friendly - starting from the airport)

bucketybuck

CPTM wrote: »

But shouldn't there be an option for tourists who wish to use coins instead of buying a leap card for a city trip?

Every time I visit a new, foreign, city I always take 5 minutes to figure out what the deal is with trams/metro/buses etc before trying to get on one. They all have their differences and when it comes to tourist information the public transport options are generally one of the first things a tourist will see.

I see no reason to hold up 99% of travellers for the 1% of people who fumble their way through life.

devnull

Problem with the airport is at terminal 1 there is a CIE sales desk masquerading as a general travel information desk, which results in tourists being advised of routes to their destination using only CIE group companies where far better and quicker alternatives may exist using other operators.

Another problem with that desk is Visitor Leap or Leap of any kind is not advertised as they are too busy pushing their own tickets. An ex colleague from the UK recently came in and they kept telling him the freedom pass is the three day visitor ticket and has replaced Leap. He insisted he wanted Leap and the person then told him they will have to pay a lot more and buy regular leap which they do not advise.

What needs to happen is a proper Transport for Ireland run independent travel desk in both terminals who assists passengers with travel needs that is not affiliated to any company that firmly puts the passengers needs before any commercial interests. The operators should then have their own desks or staff at their stops.

Poxyshamrock

If they had any sense, they'd make buses in Galway, Cork and Limerick cashless too while they're at it.

Eponymous

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Ahh, nope.

You'd be surprised to learn how many don't have bank accounts.

There's a whole social underbelly that's over represented among public transport users.

...and a former Minister for Finance/Taoiseach/Future Presidential Candidate.

JayRoc

n97 mini wrote: »

Should have gone straight to contactless debit cards. Every adult already has one.

Of course they don't.

Hurrache

Nermal wrote: »

Or we could just implement it tomorrow, and tell people to get a bloody leap card.

Or they could get with the rest of the cashless society first.

Pixel Eater

On the rebrand: the new colours aren't actually that bad - a lot better than some of the options they presented during the consultation process, if memory serves me right - but I still think the current colour scheme is superior. I actually think the whole of Dublin Bus' current branding, including logo, livery, ads etc., is quite strong.

I understand the reason they are doing this: Dublin Bus own the current brand and they want to tender out routes to private contractors but since Dublin Bus is a publicly owned company is there no way that whichever authority could simply retain the current brand and separate the Dublin Bus company from it?

bk

n97 mini wrote: »

Went the wrong direction with Leap. Should have gone straight to contactless debit cards. Every adult already has one.

As others pointed out, contactless debit cards were only starting to be rolled out by the banks when Leap launched.

And you would still need Leap cards to hold monthly/annual tickets, child tickets, student tickets and free travel pass.

Also you need something available for those who refuse to get bank account.

Finally, Leap isn't just the card, it is the entire system, the backend servers that process tickets, etc. The card is simply the tip of the iceberg that we can see. Even with contactless debit cards, you will still be using all that Leap infrastructure in the backend.

Quackster wrote: »

Deciding who takes the hit on offline tag-ons (eg on buses) with debit/credit cards that are subsequently declined will have to be ironed out.

Well if the NTA continues to move to the model of them collecting the fare box (along with fixed fare contracts) as they are doing with GA, then it would be on them.

However if they update the ticket machines it should be possible to use technology to greatly limit such losses.

After all every DB bus is connected to a network constantly over the mobile networks, that is how RTPI works afterall. While you would want the tag-on to be still offline, you could make it so that the ticket machine validates the transactions every few minutes rather then at the end of the day and it could blacklist the card on all buses/trams/DARTs etc. within a few minutes. So you would lose at max just one fare.

Victor wrote: »

I think the point is cashless buses which **allow** payment via card, as opposed to cashfree buses which **don't** allow payment by coin. https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/buses/cash-free-buses

So you are saying that in two years they will simply introduce contactless debit cards and mobile phone payments, but you will still be able to pay with coins as you can today?

If true, then that would be incredibly disappointing. You'll still have lots of people paying by coins and thus the slow dwell times. Get the damn finger out, it isn't rocket science.

BTW I get that you will want to roll out contactless debit cards out first, leave it bed in for a year or two and greatly widen the gap between leap and cash fares, before getting rid of cash completely, like they did in London. It is just frustrating that it seems to take twice as long and 10 years later then London.

Victor wrote: »

The current expectation is a two-fare system, one (very) short and one long.

Grrrhhh... more disappointment.

So no true integration and still needs driver interaction after all this time.

I really think they need to move to the Amsterdam style tag-on/tag-off charge per km style model across bus/tram/Dart.

At least I assume that the (very) short fare is basically the 1 - 3 stage fare and will require driver interaction and the long fare is stage 4 or more and can be gotten from the right hand validators?

And for anyone in the NTA reading this. For the love of god, introduce the right hand validators on the BE city buses down in Cork and set in to the standard fare. The VAST majority of journeys on most routes are a flat fare. But you still have to interact with the driver and for some crazy reason it is even much slower then DB!

testicles

This post has been deleted.

bk

Pixel Eater wrote: »

I understand the reason they are doing this: Dublin Bus own the current brand and they want to tender out routes to private contractors but since Dublin Bus is a publicly owned company is there no way that whichever authority could simply retain the current brand and separate the Dublin Bus company from it?

Even if it was possible, they probably want a complete break from the past and get people to start thinking about them as Dublin City Bus Services, rather then Dublin Bus.

Anyway it isn't as if the DB branding and colour scheme is that old. The current yellow buses colour scheme was only introduced in the early 2000's, less then 20 years ago. In the 30 years since DB has existed, they have gone from tan, to green, to cream to the current yellow.

It isn't like we are talking about the iconic red buses of London.

Great info on the history of DB branding here and great pictures of the different colour schemes:

https://graphicmint.com/blog/the-colours-of-dublin-city/

bk

testicles wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

A lot of older folk don't, many still just have a bank book, though banks are starting to do away with them and force debit cards on them.

Though most of these sorts of folks would normally be covered by the free travel pass anyway.

dfx-

Contactless is here in Coventry, it is not a revelationary development, not a massive usage either.

Amazingly, the most used option in my experience is the driver-issued, paper daypass ticket and pre-paid travelcards and then cash.

It does not see a swathe of people using bankcards.

Victor

Quackster wrote: »

Deciding who takes the hit on offline tag-ons (eg on buses) with debit/credit cards that are subsequently declined will have to be ironed out.

If the ticket machines are replaced with ones with adequate memory, a blocked list can be added.

circadian wrote: »

One thing I can't understand as it's implemented elsewhere is single tickets for all modes of transport.

It is expected that free transfers - an extension of the Leap 90 Discount - will be part of BusConnects.

bk wrote: »

At least I assume that the (very) short fare is basically the 1 - 3 stage fare

Yes.

and will require driver interaction and the long fare is stage 4 or more and can be gotten from the right hand validators?

I don't know how it will manifest itself. They could have a validator with two panels.

devnull

The Dublin Bus chairman recently valued the brand at tens.of millions of Euro.

The over arching system is more important than any of its parts in any good intergrated transport system. Unfortunately in Dublin historically we've had a group of companies all ploughing their own furrow looking after themselves rather than the system as a whole.

The idea of a publicly funded transport system is that it puts the public intergrated transport system ahead of any commercial or self interests. Unfortunately the problem with Dublin Bus is their own brand and image is seen more important than the system

I'm all for a proper intergrated system controlled by a regulator for the benefit of public transport as a whole rather than each brand looking after itself and not seeing the bigger picture. The new information panels at the LUAS stops are far better for using this approach than the old ones and I want to see more of that.

The public transport user has to come first before any vested interests commercial interests and companies who are more interested in self preservation.

devnull

dfx- wrote: »

Contactless is here in Coventry, it is not a revelationary development, not a massive usage either.

Amazingly, the most used option in my experience is the driver-issued, paper daypass ticket and pre-paid travelcards and then cash.

It does not see a swathe of people using bankcards.

To be honest I don't think comparing someone like Coventry with far less bus users with a capital city is a great comparison. They are worlds apart.

bk

dfx- wrote: »

Contactless is here in Coventry, it is not a revelationary development, not a massive usage either.

Amazingly, the most used option in my experience is the driver-issued, paper daypass ticket and pre-paid travelcards and then cash.

It amazingly does not see a swathe of people using bankcards.

Try London, everyone using bank cards or Oyster cards. Of course they are the only option now.

It really depends on what you force and what tickets are made available and how.

For instance in coventry, is the only way to get a daypass ticket by paper ticket from the driver? If it is, then that makes sense. In London, your contactless debit card acts as a day pass or weekly pass via capping automatically (much like Leap cards do here), so buying a ticket from the driver isn't necessary.

bk

Victor wrote: »

It is expected that free transfers - an extension of the Leap 90 Discount - will be part of BusConnects.

Does that mean extended to Luas/Metro/Dart too?

Pixel Eater

bk wrote: »

Even if it was possible, they probably want a complete break from the past and get people to start thinking about them as Dublin City Bus Services, rather then Dublin Bus.

Anyway it isn't as if the DB branding and colour scheme is that old. The current yellow buses colour scheme was only introduced in the early 2000's, less then 20 years ago. In the 30 years since DB has existed, they have gone from tan, to green, to cream to the current yellow.

It isn't like we are talking about the iconic red buses of London.

Great info on the history of DB branding here and great pictures of the different colour schemes:

https://graphicmint.com/blog/the-colours-of-dublin-city/

Indeed but then wouldn't it better to stick with the current branding and establish recognition over the long term rather than changing it yet again?

never_mind

Pixel Eater wrote: »

On the rebrand: the new colours aren't actually that bad - a lot better than some of the options they presented during the consultation process, if memory serves me right - but I still think the current colour scheme is superior. I actually think the whole of Dublin Bus' current branding, including logo, livery, ads etc., is quite strong.

I understand the reason they are doing this: Dublin Bus own the current brand and they want to tender out routes to private contractors but since Dublin Bus is a publicly owned company is there no way that whichever authority could simply retain the current brand and separate the Dublin Bus company from it?

Where is the link to the new branding? The white and blue I've seen is a disaster... it'll be a complete MARE to keep clean

bk

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Indeed but then wouldn't it better to stick with the current branding and establish recognition over the long term rather than changing it yet again?

No it wouldn't, not when you are moving to a whole new operations model that includes companies other then Dublin Bus. It makes no sense to stick with the old Dublin Bus style. Nevermind issues around Dublin Bus demanding 10's of millions for their brand, which really is nothing special.

loyatemu

devnull wrote: »

The Dublin Bus chairman recently valued the brand at tens.of millions of Euro.

he's insane - it's a byword for inefficiency and unreliability (same as "CIE"). The service may have improved over the years but the brand is far from premium.

bk

bk wrote: »

For instance in coventry, is the only way to get a daypass ticket by paper ticket from the driver? If it is, then that makes sense. In London, your contactless debit card acts as a day pass or weekly pass via capping automatically (much like Leap cards do here), so buying a ticket from the driver isn't necessary.

Yes, just checked the Coventry website, their Swiftcard doesn't have the automatic daily/weekly capping that our Leap, Oyster and Oyster debit cards all have. The only option is to buy the ticket from the driver.

So until they change that over, it makes sense that buying tickets from the driver is still the most popular option.

GBX

n97 mini wrote: »

Went the wrong direction with Leap. Should have gone straight to contactless debit cards. Every adult already has one.

Wrong. Some people are declining and returning contactless cards.

Victor

bk wrote: »

Does that mean extended to Luas/Metro/Dart too?

Yes, but there would have to be obvious system boundaries - Sallins to Balbriggan for €2-3 wouldn't be acceptable.

bk wrote: »

It makes no sense to stick with the old Dublin Bus style.

They could easily just paint the new buses the same yellow and change the 'skirt' to say, black. On the road, DB won't be in competition with the other operator(s), so a claim of passing off wouldn't work.

devnull

Pixel Eater wrote: »

bk wrote: »

Even if it was possible, they probably want a complete break from the past and get people to start thinking about them as Dublin City Bus Services, rather then Dublin Bus.

Anyway it isn't as if the DB branding and colour scheme is that old. The current yellow buses colour scheme was only introduced in the early 2000's, less then 20 years ago. In the 30 years since DB has existed, they have gone from tan, to green, to cream to the current yellow.

It isn't like we are talking about the iconic red buses of London.

Great info on the history of DB branding here and great pictures of the different colour schemes:

https://graphicmint.com/blog/the-colours-of-dublin-city/

Indeed but then wouldn't it better to stick with the current branding and establish recognition over the long term rather than changing it yet again?

Do you think spending tens of millions to acquire it is good use of the transport budget? And even then you have problems of a company other than Dublin Bus having the name Dublin Bus on their vehicles which Dublin Bus wouldn't like.

bk

Victor wrote: »

Yes, but there would have to be obvious system boundaries - Sallins to Balbriggan for €3 wouldn't be acceptable.

Yes, at least some good news. But the above is why I prefer the Amsterdam style charge per km model, fairer for everyone.

But whatever works to reduce dwell time and increase ease of transfers/integration.

Tow

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

You'd be surprised to learn how many don't have bank accounts.

There's a whole social underbelly that's over represented among public transport users.

The underbelly have free public transport already, or do you mean our political elite who don't have bank accounts and have to rely on digouts from friends to get by?

bk

Victor wrote: »

They could easily just paint the new buses the same yellow and change the 'skirt' to say, black. On the road, DB won't be in competition with the other operator(s), so a claim of passing off wouldn't work.

Might still fall foul of trademark laws, which can be hard to interpret. You wouldn't want all this to end up being dragged out for years in court.

Probably best to avoid it all and just start over with a new iconic look.

All over Blue sounds good for Dublin and could possibly become just as iconic as London Bus Red in time.

Pixel Eater

never_mind wrote: »

Where is the link to the new branding? The white and blue I've seen is a disaster... it'll be a complete MARE to keep clean

https://www.dublininquirer.com/2018/05/08/david-dublin-transport-needs-its-own-brand/#comment-33695

Mostly when with blue rather than the white all over.

bk wrote: »

No it wouldn't, not when you are moving to a whole new operations model that includes companies other then Dublin Bus. It makes no sense to stick with the old Dublin Bus style. Nevermind issues around Dublin Bus demanding 10's of millions for their brand, which really is nothing special.

Disagree, think it would be better to keep as is. But agree it's not worth the millions Dublin Bus may demand for it, no matter what they say. But I don't understand how they could be in a position to demand such payment in any case as they are publicly owned.

The main reason I believe it should be kept is that it's superior than the new branding that they propose.