HAP and Revenue(Tax Clearance)

Wayne7819

Any advice much appreciated.

I had an email from my Landlord(A LARGE COMMERCIAL LL) a few days ago, asking why our rent hasn't been paid. We've been on HAP since DECEMBER and Rent Allowance before that, paying our weekly contribution.
I contacted the Council and they said they requested a document from the Landlord a couple of weeks earlier and hadn't been received. They couldn't tell me what it was they requested, due to data protection. So it's on hold.
I got back to the Landlord and told them what the council said as if they didn't know!! They said it was a Revenue issue that's out of the control of the Landlord.
In the meantime, they say it's my responsibility to pay the rent. They say it's irrelevant who they receive it from.
My question is, if the LL signed the original documents to sign up for HAP, how can it be my responsibility if they have issues with Revenue?

They've issued a 14 days Rent Arrears Warning which will lead to a termination notice.

Thanks in advance.

the_syco

Wayne7819 wrote: »

how can it be my responsibility if they have issues with Revenue?

Must pay the rent. In the past, the government helped you pay it. If the government decides not to help you pay the rent, they'll expect you to pay the rent, or leave.

ted1

Because you are the tenant do it’s your responsibility.
The landlords tax status is between him and revenue, and no one else.

He also would be within his right to charge a documentation fee for producing such documents.

wowy

the_syco wrote: »

Must pay the rent. In the past, the government helped you pay it. If the government decides not to help you pay the rent, they'll expect you to pay the rent, or leave.

Yeah but the Landlord agreed to the HAP scheme with the OP and the Council, which included an obligation for the LL to submit tax clearance documents to the Council. If the LL hasn't done that, it's the LL who is in breach of one of their obligations under the lease, leading to the non-payment of rent by the Council.

davo10

wowy wrote: »

Yeah but the Landlord agreed to the HAP scheme with the OP and the Council, which included an obligation for the LL to submit tax clearance documents to the Council. If the LL hasn't done that, it's the LL who is in breach of one of their obligations under the lease, leading to the non-payment of rent by the Council.

I don't think so. The landlord agrees to accept HAP, as is required by law, but HAP is a subsidy for the tenant, not the LL. Its a few years since I've seen the paperwork for RA, but I'm pretty sure that it said something along the lines of in order to be eligible for a RA tenancy, a TCC must be provided, it didn't say I was legally obligated to provide it, if I didn't, then council would not pay.

Unfortunately for the op, the payment of rent is wholly the responsibility of the tenant.

wowy

davo10 wrote: »

I don't think so. The landlord agrees to accept HAP, as is required by law, but HAP is a subsidy for the tenant, not the LL. Its a few years since I've seen the paperwork for RA, but I'm pretty sure that it said something along the lines of in order to be eligible for a RA tenancy, a TCC must be provided, it didn't say I was legally obligated to provide it, if I didn't, then council would not pay.

Unfortunately for the op, the payment of rent is wholly the responsibility of the tenant.

http://hap.ie/uploads/files/pdf/landlord-booklet-english.pdf

See Section 8 here - payments will be suspended if the LL does not supply evidence of tax compliance.

Agreed that there is no contract between LL and local authority, but LL still obliged to supply tax clearance, etc to LA. Tenant only becomes liable for entire rent if they don't pay their portion to the LA.

LL has already issued 14 day notice here, so OP needs to get onto RTB and back onto the HAP office in their LA.

ted1

wowy wrote: »

davo10 wrote: »

I don't think so. The landlord agrees to accept HAP, as is required by law, but HAP is a subsidy for the tenant, not the LL. Its a few years since I've seen the paperwork for RA, but I'm pretty sure that it said something along the lines of in order to be eligible for a RA tenancy, a TCC must be provided, it didn't say I was legally obligated to provide it, if I didn't, then council would not pay.

Unfortunately for the op, the payment of rent is wholly the responsibility of the tenant.

http://hap.ie/uploads/files/pdf/landlord-booklet-english.pdf

See Section 8 here - payments will be suspended if the LL does not supply evidence of tax compliance.

Agreed that there is no contract between LL and local authority, but LL still obliged to supply tax clearance, etc to LA. Tenant only becomes liable for entire rent if they don't pay their portion to the LA.

LL has already issued 14 day notice here, so OP needs to get onto RTB and back onto the HAP office in their LA.

Rubbish. The tenant is responsible for the rent being paid. It’s as simple as this , no rent, no home.

Wayne7819

Went to the Council this morning with the 14 Rent Arrears notice. They confirmed off the record that it was indeed the Tax Clearance Certificate that hasn't been supplied.
Council advised to contact Threshold, which I did, they'll contact the LL on my behalf. Threshold seem to be of the opinion that the rent arrears are not my responsibility if the LL has not fulfilled the their part of the scheme which they signed up for. Time will tell.

Wayne7819

[/quote]
Rubbish. The tenant is responsible for the rent being paid. It’s as simple as this , no rent, no home.[/quote]

It can't be as black and white as that. You must be a LL! They have failed to provide the Certificate, despite signing up to it in the full knowledge it's required. They have to be accountable in some way.

Wayne7819

[/quote]
Rubbish. The tenant is responsible for the rent being paid. It’s as simple as this , no rent, no home.[/quote]

It can't be as black and white as that. You must be a LL! They have failed to provide the Certificate, despite signing up to it in the full knowledge it's required. They have to be accountable in some way.

davo10

Wayne7819 wrote: »

Went to the Council this morning with the 14 Rent Arrears notice. They confirmed off the record that it was indeed the Tax Clearance Certificate that hasn't been supplied.
Council advised to contact Threshold, which I did, they'll contact the LL on my behalf. Threshold seem to be of the opinion that the rent arrears are not my responsibility if the LL has not fulfilled the their part of the scheme which they signed up for. Time will tell.

Threshold are known to give erroneous advice, if you are legally evicted for non payment of rent, Threshold will be no use to you. Do not rely on their advice as a shield against eviction.

A TCC is a requirement for eligibility, it is issued by Revenue , if the LL cannot or will not supply it, that means he/she is ineligible to receive your subsidy, but as the tenant, you unfortunately still have to arrange payment of rent. LL can't refuse HAP, but a council cannot compel a tax payer to submit a TCC, how could they if Revenue didn't issue it to the LL?.

Op, HAP is a subsidy to you, not the LL, the most important line in the leaflet/link Woxy posted about Landlords and HAP is:

http://hap.ie/uploads/files/pdf/landlord-booklet-english.pdf

How does HAP work?

8) You don’t have a contract with the local authority. The local authority makes payments on behalf of the HAP tenant.


I am a LL by the way, I sympathise with your predicament because I know it is not your fault, but this is one of the reasons why LLs avoid HAP, if the council stop payments, for whatever reason, the tenant often is not in a position to pay and eviction usually follows.

the_syco

Wayne7819 wrote: »

Threshold seem to be of the opinion that the rent arrears are not my responsibility if the LL has not fulfilled the their part of the scheme which they signed up for. Time will tell.

Threshold are a joke.

Will the LL be told why HAP was stopped? AFAIK the HAP contract is between the LA and the tenant, so I doubt it.

Wayne7819

the_syco wrote: »

Threshold are a joke.

Will the LL be told why HAP was stopped? AFAIK the HAP contract is between the LA and the tenant, so I doubt it.

The LL knew exactly why it was on hold but played dumb with me. My Landlord has form! We've already had a battle last year when the LL refused HAP even though they were legally obliged to, they were already accepting RA. Harrassed us for months for ARREARS, we got into debt to keep up, where issued with a Termination notice eventually and we went to the RTB. How can a LL sign up to a process and not fulfil all requirements. We pay our contribution and keep to our side of the agreement. If a Landlord can't get a TCC, what are the reasons? How is it out of their control?

davo10

Wayne7819 wrote: »

The LL knew exactly why it was on hold but played dumb with me. My Landlord has form! We've already had a battle last year when the LL refused HAP even though they were legally obliged to, they were already accepting RA. Harrassed us for months for ARREARS, we got into debt to keep up, where issued with a Termination notice eventually and we went to the RTB. How can a LL sign up to a process and not fulfil all requirements. We pay our contribution and keep to our side of the agreement. If a Landlord can't get a TCC, what are the reasons? How is it out of their control?

A Tax Compliance Certificate is as the title suggests, a certificate from Revenue confirming the LL's tax returns are in order and all taxes are up to date. If the LL has not filed a return, or his tax affairs/payments are not in order, a certificate will not be issued. You have absolutely no right to contact Revenue to seek details about your LLs tax affairs.

When you say "harassed" you for arrears, if you are in arrears every LL is going to contact you regarding payment of rent. This is another issue with rent subsidies, they are paid in arrears and tenants often assume, wrongly, that this is ok. Your lease says rent to be paid in advance, even if you get state subsidy, rent has to be paid as per your lease, so you have to arrange this. Again, the LL has a contract with you, not the LA, you have to arrange for rent payment. He wasn't harrasing you, he was looking for your rent to be paid in advance.

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

Because you are the tenant do it’s your responsibility.
The landlords tax status is between him and revenue, and no one else.

He also would be within his right to charge a documentation fee for producing such documents.

A landlords tax status can be very relevant to a tenant if for example they might be living abroad.

I don't believe it is unreasonable for a state body to ask for a tax cert from a person they are paying rent to, to ensure that the rent is being duly reported.

A large commercial landlord should have no problem producing a tax clearance cert to the council.

Time

Deleted User wrote: »

A landlords tax status can be very relevant to a tenant if for example they might be living abroad.

I don't believe it is unreasonable for a state body to ask for a tax cert from a person they are paying rent to, to ensure that the rent is being duly reported.

A large commercial landlord should have no problem producing a tax clearance cert to the council.

Slightly OT but what’s the rule with TCC and HAP for non resident LL? Since tax is withheld at source LL won’t nesecarilly be even registered for tax here.

splinter65

Wayne7819 wrote: »

Went to the Council this morning with the 14 Rent Arrears notice. They confirmed off the record that it was indeed the Tax Clearance Certificate that hasn't been supplied.
Council advised to contact Threshold, which I did, they'll contact the LL on my behalf. Threshold seem to be of the opinion that the rent arrears are not my responsibility if the LL has not fulfilled the their part of the scheme which they signed up for. Time will tell.

Be very wary of whatever Threshold tell you!!!
If your rent is not paid then your landlord will follow RTB rules regarding evicting you for arrears.

the_syco

Wayne7819 wrote: »

We've already had a battle last year when the LL refused HAP even though they were legally obliged to

The problem with forcing them to accept HAP, as that they can decide not to supply a tax cert (as it's not against the law not to do so), and kick you out that way.

Going forward, I'd say many LL's will decide not to supply tax certs to the LA.

dennyk

the_syco wrote: »

The problem with forcing them to accept HAP, as that they can decide not to supply a tax cert (as it's not against the law not to do so), and kick you out that way.

Going forward, I'd say many LL's will decide not to supply tax certs to the LA.

Yeah, that seems like one hell of a huge loophole for landlords who want to boot tenants trying to switch to HAP; just "forget" to file the paperwork and hey presto, now the tenant (who the landlord knows can't cover the rent on their own, else they wouldn't need HAP) is in arrears and the LL can give 'em notice. And that's a terrible situation for the tenant if they're in a high-demand area, because HAP tenants likely won't do well when competing for a new tenancy against the hordes of desperate folks waving fistfuls of up-front rent payments at landlords.

GGTrek

the_syco wrote: »

Wayne7819 wrote: »

We've already had a battle last year when the LL refused HAP even though they were legally obliged to

The problem with forcing them to accept HAP, as that they can decide not to supply a tax cert (as it's not against the law not to do so), and kick you out that way.

Going forward, I'd say many LL's will decide not to supply tax certs to the LA.

Forcing landlords (especially big investment funds with legal muscle) to take govvie handouts was definitely not a clever idea from the govvie in order to wash their hands of social housing responsibility.

HAP is fraught with obstacles (much worse than the old Rent Allowance): tax certificates, compulsory council inspections, planning permissions, forms, ... Anything the council does not like they stop the rent payments and the tenancy stays between the tenant and the landlord, so stopping the rent payment is a sure way to be evicted. There is a really big case at the moment with an apartment block where the planning permission was not just for apartments and tens of tenants on HAP are being evicted by the big commercial landlord. It is the usual half baked idea from the govvie.

Unlike other posters should the OP case go to adjudication I am not sure what the interpretation will be. I am really hoping that big REITs/funds will take the new HAP scheme (and the discrimination bull..t behind) and the RTA 2016 to the High Court in order to settle the matters, they have the money for the legal expenses bill against the RTB and the Equality Tribunal without fearing their scaremongering fines!

I do not see any other solution in Ireland to clear the mess caused by the Dail overstepping its constitutional bounds on tenancy law, property law and massively restricting freedom of contract. Equality was supposed to be for fundamental non economic issues (race/gender/nationality) not economic decisions! Strange how banks were not forced to provide loans to people with no economic means (renting is exactly the same: loaning an asset instead of money).

Glass fused light

dennyk wrote: »

Yeah, that seems like one hell of a huge loophole for landlords who want to boot tenants trying to switch to HAP; just "forget" to file the paperwork and hey presto, now the tenant (who the landlord knows can't cover the rent on their own, else they wouldn't need HAP) is in arrears and the LL can give 'em notice. And that's a terrible situation for the tenant if they're in a high-demand area, because HAP tenants likely won't do well when competing for a new tenancy against the hordes of desperate folks waving fistfuls of up-front rent payments at landlords.

Why should the landlord be forced to act differently for tenants?
If the government wants to impose HAP to avoid providing social housing they need to design a system which leaves both the parties to the contract in the same position across the board.
Now rather than do this, they decided to impose a system where a third party who is not bound into the contract can attempt to impose terms and conditions over and above what a non-HAP tenant can request.
At least the landlord and the tenant, both have a vested interest in resolving an issue, but the local council don't and it's the tenant who has the most to loose here.

relax carry on

Time wrote: »

Slightly OT but what’s the rule with TCC and HAP for non resident LL? Since tax is withheld at source LL won’t nesecarilly be even registered for tax here.

Non resident landlords must declare the rental income in the state for properties situated in the state. They will be registered for taxation purposes and should be able to obtain a TCC.