Abandoned House

368100

Hi,

Hoping somebody here might give me an idea how to proceed.

I'm on the hunt for a house in a rural area. A house that used to belong to friends of my Dad (they're now passed away) is sitting abandoned, you can't even get up the driveway due to overgrowth. All my Dad knows is that it was a couple from Dublin bought it but unsure if they ever lived in it.

I bought the folio from the Land Registry which shows the house transferring ownership in 2003 from my Dads friend to this couple. There is no bank charges registered at all which would indicate that it was bought without a mortgage.

There is a Ranelagh Address for the couple, and when I look this up on Google Street View this looks to be abandoned too. I tried to get the folio for this to see if there would be any more info but it's in the Registry of Deeds so not available online.

I plan to drive past the house in Ranelagh to see if its still abandoned (in case Google Street View is out of date) but if it is, I've no idea where to go with this, if anywhere?

Its a lovely house and a shame to know it's sitting abandoned. I'd happily pay a fair price for it.

Any ideas?

Samuel T. Cogley

Move in and hope you don't get rumbled for 12 years.

LirW

Adverse Possession. Basically what Samuel said, move in, hope you don't get into trouble with the original owner for 12 years, then apply for adverse possession, congrats you have a house. If your research has shown that the properties are idle for such a long time, how likely would it be that they ever show up, especially in a rural area?
Maybe when doing that save a good amount of cash away if the owner ever shows up and offer to buy it off them.

Tigger

How long ago did you move in ?

368100

Tigger wrote: »

How long ago did you move in ?

I havent moved in....i'm trying to buy it

368100

LirW wrote: »

Adverse Possession. Basically what Samuel said, move in, hope you don't get into trouble with the original owner for 12 years, then apply for adverse possession, congrats you have a house. If your research has shown that the properties are idle for such a long time, how likely would it be that they ever show up, especially in a rural area?
Maybe when doing that save a good amount of cash away if the owner ever shows up and offer to buy it off them.

While it would be a dream to get a house like that without a mortage, this is going to be a home for me, not an investment. Unfortunately I dont think i could live in it for 12 years constantly uneasy whether somebody is going to come knocking some day

Glass fused light

Ask the locals in the pub and the post person what they know.
Google the name and Dublin address and probate / will
Ditto on rip

LirW

368100 wrote: »

While it would be a dream to get a house like that without a mortage, this is going to be a home for me, not an investment. Unfortunately I dont think i could live in it for 12 years constantly uneasy whether somebody is going to come knocking some day

I appreciate that and the adverse possession law is in place for cases like you're in. All you can do is your research, if you genuinely can't track down the owners and the banks aren't helpful, moving in is your best bet. When someone shows up they can't just boot you out straight away.
I understand that this is a predicament and it's frustrating to see a house rotting away.

Get legal advise on how to approach the situation.

Mrs OBumble

368100 wrote: »

. Unfortunately I dont think i could live in it for 12 years constantly uneasy whether somebody is going to come knocking some day

So forget about it and look to buy a house that's on the market in the regular way.




Adverse posession IS the legal framework used to deal with situations like this. There are no magic fairies who can suddenly make the former owners pop out of the woodwork.

But I would in put time into local information seeking - see the publican, postman, priest etc. Remember that they may not tell the truth to a blow-in. Maybe your dad's friends have some contacts who could introduce you?

dixiefly

Is adverse possession not a mad idea in this case?

The OP would have to spend a significant amount of money to get it livable with the potential that they could be turfed out at any time.

Also, in this age of social media the opportunity to communicate stuff like this is much greater than years ago when this law was enacted.

Subcomandante Marcos

dixiefly wrote: »

Is adverse possession not a mad idea in this case?

The OP would have to spend a significant amount of money to get it livable with the potential that they could be turfed out at any time.

Also, in this age of social media the opportunity to communicate stuff like this is much greater than years ago when this law was enacted.

Yeah. Odds are if it's been abandoned for a significant amount of time it will need some major investment to make it habitable again, possibly even structural works.

Knock into the house in Ranelagh or the neighbours and ask if there's any contact details for the owners of the house you want to buy, a lot of Ranelagh's estates and streets are mature developments and will have families in them from 2-3 generations back so odds are someone in the area will know the owners and have a way of getting in touch with them.

Del2005

LirW wrote: »

I When someone shows up they can't just boot you out straight away.

Can you clarify this. If I find someone trying to steal my property I cannot remove them, doesn't sound right.

LirW

Del2005 wrote: »

Can you clarify this. If I find someone trying to steal my property I cannot remove them, doesn't sound right.

Afaik you have to go through the eviction process in this case. But I'm open for clarification.

El Tarangu

Del2005 wrote: »

Can you clarify this. If I find someone trying to steal my property I cannot remove them, doesn't sound right.

If you call the guards, they will tell you its a civil matter. Google "[certain ethic group] squatters" and there are plenty of horror stories about people going away on holidays and coming back to find a family living in their house. They eventually get it back, but usually not before a lot their possessions are wrecked.

(Just to be clear, I am not conflating the OP taking over a long-abandoned house with the situation above).

drunkmonkey

I think you need to visit the address in Ranelagh and ask the neighbors there where are the couple gone, maybe the postman has a forwarding address, have you contacted the local estate agent in case they sold it and would have a lot more details than your dad, they should have a phone number or name.
Does your dad remember who the agent was?

secondrowgal

This is really interesting. Is adverse possession also available for properties that are owned by the government (and "managed" by the OPW) but are being let go to wrack and ruin??

LirW

secondrowgal wrote: »

This is really interesting. Is adverse possession also available for properties that are owned by the government (and "managed" by the OPW) but are being let go to wrack and ruin??

Theoretically it's available on every property. But if it's likely that someone will legally battle you to get out it's a lost cause, that's why it's important to try everything you can to legally obtain the empty property. In your case it would make sense purchasing the folio, look up the owner and go from there.

secondrowgal

LirW wrote: »

Theoretically it's available on every property. But if it's likely that someone will legally battle you to get out it's a lost cause, that's why it's important to try everything you can to legally obtain the empty property. In your case it would make sense purchasing the folio, look up the owner and go from there.

Owner is the government, and we already approached the relevant department about buying but they said that they had no plans to sell, and it would have to be public auction.

Del2005

secondrowgal wrote: »

This is really interesting. Is adverse possession also available for properties that are owned by the government (and "managed" by the OPW) but are being let go to wrack and ruin??

It's 30 years for government property.

Del2005

El Tarangu wrote: »

If you call the guards, they will tell you its a civil matter. Google "[certain ethic group] squatters" and there are plenty of horror stories about people going away on holidays and coming back to find a family living in their house. They eventually get it back, but usually not before a lot their possessions are wrecked.

(Just to be clear, I am not conflating the OP taking over a long-abandoned house with the situation above).

So if I break into a house I'm better off staying inside and saying it's mine than trying to make a get away. Make a run and I've committed a criminal act, stay in the house and it's civil. Our laws are fecked.

368100

368100 wrote: »

There is a Ranelagh Address for the couple, and when I look this up on Google Street View this looks to be abandoned too. I tried to get the folio for this to see if there would be any more info but it's in the Registry of Deeds so not available online.

Could you engage a professional to search for the deeds to this Ranelagh address?

Graces7

LirW wrote: »

Theoretically it's available on every property. But if it's likely that someone will legally battle you to get out it's a lost cause, that's why it's important to try everything you can to legally obtain the empty property. In your case it would make sense purchasing the folio, look up the owner and go from there.

If it is govt owned land, you need to be there 30 years not 12 ..

Cuddlesworth

El Tarangu wrote: »

If you call the guards, they will tell you its a civil matter. Google "[certain ethic group] squatters" and there are plenty of horror stories about people going away on holidays and coming back to find a family living in their house. They eventually get it back, but usually not before a lot their possessions are wrecked.

(Just to be clear, I am not conflating the OP taking over a long-abandoned house with the situation above).

Because the situation above is untrue?

runawaybishop

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Because the situation above is untrue?

Nope, was a thread about this scenario recently on here.

Subcomandante Marcos

runawaybishop wrote: »

Nope, was a thread about this scenario recently on here.

And we all know that a thread on boards is empirical evidence and thus it definitely happened.

runawaybishop

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

And we all know that a thread on boards is empirical evidence and thus it definitely happened.

True, i am probably not even a Bishop.

El Tarangu

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Because the situation above is untrue?

No it isn't

Subcomandante Marcos

runawaybishop wrote: »

True, i am probably not even a Bishop.

Next you'll say I'm not a dead Mexican revolutionary.

Cuddlesworth

El Tarangu wrote: »

No it isn't

Congrats, now show me a Irish case where somebody came back from holidays to their home having been broken into and occupied since 2002 when the laws changed significantly.

Glass fused light

Del2005 wrote: »

So if I break into a house I'm better off staying inside and saying it's mine than trying to make a get away. Make a run and I've committed a criminal act, stay in the house and it's civil. Our laws are fecked.

If the owner can't prove criminal damage was used to gain access to the house its a civil case.
There is one in Dublin which was going on for years
https://www.herald.ie/news/artist-stakes-claim-to-2m-city-building-27918487.html

Juwwi

Knocking into the neighbours beside the Ranelagh Address is probably your best bet of finding them.

Turfcutter

368100 wrote: »

I havent moved in....i'm trying to buy it

Wrong answer...
You moved in 12 years ago :pac:

LuckyLloyd

Del2005 wrote: »

Can you clarify this. If I find someone trying to steal my property I cannot remove them, doesn't sound right.

You cannot forcibly remove them, no. You'd notify them that you are the owner; enlist legal advice; and pursue your rights via the courts. You'd be eventually granted legal possession and the occupant given a short period to get their affairs in order and move on.

Del2005 wrote: »

So if I break into a house I'm better off staying inside and saying it's mine than trying to make a get away. Make a run and I've committed a criminal act, stay in the house and it's civil. Our laws are fecked.

While people might not like the idea of it, adverse possession is a concept that maintains the value of land. Simply put, while you might feel that property rights are absolute, failure to exercise active use of land is a waste to society. A property gathering dust with no interest from its owners for 15 years (or maybe owners no longer alive who failed to make provisions for it) is a sad thing. Were someone to move into it, and intentionally fix it up and occupy it as their own then:

- the local area benefits by liveable land being used appropriately
- the owners ultimately benefit if they reclaim it through the courts within the next 12 years

So the advice in this situation - providing the OP has done his homework and the owners have genuinely ignored it for 15 years - is to move in and use it as a home. Fix it up, live there, register utilities and services to the property and query trespassers. It is important to note that just being on abandoned land does not equal adverse possession as these differing cases illustrate:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/state-fails-in-bid-to-evict-squatter-1.698608

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/man-not-entited-to-squatters-rights-1.2006109

LirW

OP, what LuckyLloyd said is pretty much the best portrayal of the situation. Get onto your solicitor, do your research and move into the house when you genuinely can't trace the owners. The situation is very likely that local are happy when an abandoned house is moved again.

Graces7

LirW wrote: »

OP, what LuckyLloyd said is pretty much the best portrayal of the situation. Get onto your solicitor, do your research and move into the house when you genuinely can't trace the owners. The situation is very likely that local are happy when an abandoned house is moved again.

I tried that a couple of times last year when I was seeking somewhere.. asking re empty abandoned looking houses.. You never saw locals claim their locality so fast, and the shutters went up.

If you can claim kin within memory, far better

LirW

Graces7 wrote: »

I tried that a couple of times last year when I was seeking somewhere.. asking re empty abandoned looking houses.. You never saw locals claim their locality so fast, and the shutters went up.

If you can claim kin within memory, far better

Well, the folio lists the legal owner. I made quite the opposite experiences, people don't like properties being empty for a long period of time, especially when they're adjoining other houses. Of course it's nice that it's quiet, but the building can deteriorate fast and turn into an eyesore that many really don't like.

handlemaster

Why do so many think its ok to move into a property you do not own ?. Its not your property dont move in. Does property rights not mean anything anymore ?The government are already crazy against landlords now we have the man on the street thinking I dont know who owns a property so its ok to move in and claim that property.

Samuel T. Cogley

handlemaster wrote: »

Why do so many think its ok to move into a property you do not own ?. Its not your property dont move in. Does property rights not mean anything anymore ?The government are already crazy against landlords now we have the man on the street thinking I dont know who owns a property so its ok to move in and claim that property.

Because it maintains the value of the property and the property surrounding it. Adverse possession is a property right.

handlemaster

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

handlemaster wrote: »

Why do so many think its ok to move into a property you do not own ?. Its not your property dont move in. Does property rights not mean anything anymore ?The government are already crazy against landlords now we have the man on the street thinking I dont know who owns a property so its ok to move in and claim that property.

Because it maintains the value of the property and the property surrounding it. Adverse possession is a property right.

Yea. Maintains the value. Sure thats the concern of the trespasser. Its stealing that you know is not yours. The law over time may give technical control to the occupier. .. that doesnt mean the law is à good law .. the individual is wholely dishonorable

Raging_Ninja

handlemaster wrote: »

Yea. Maintains the value. Sure thats the concern of the trespasser. Its stealing that you know is not yours. The law over time may give technical control to the occupier. .. that doesnt mean the law is à good law .. the individual is wholely dishonorable

The property has been abandoned for 15 years. The owners have 12 years after the OP moves in to claim their property back. The owners could be dead for all we know.

LuckyLloyd

handlemaster wrote: »

Why do so many think its ok to move into a property you do not own ?. Its not your property dont move in. Does property rights not mean anything anymore ?The government are already crazy against landlords now we have the man on the street thinking I dont know who owns a property so its ok to move in and claim that property.

Property rights are not and never have been absolute. Use it or lose it. In order for Adverse Possession to be legally won, the original owner needs to pay so little heed or attention to their property that someone can occupy it in a purposeful way as their own for 12 years! Why should someone be entitled to leave liveable land untouched, unguarded and uninspected for such a long period of time?

handlemaster wrote: »

Yea. Maintains the value. Sure thats the concern of the trespasser. Its stealing that you know is not yours. The law over time may give technical control to the occupier. .. that doesnt mean the law is ood law .. the individual is wholely dishonorable

That's the concern of society as a whole though. Vacant liveable land and property is a waste to society, physically and emotionally.

And just to be clear, over time adverse possession passes full valid title of ownership from the negligent owner to the occupier - it's not a technicality.

Subcomandante Marcos

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Property rights are not and never have been absolute. Use it or lose it. In order for Adverse Possession to be legally won, the original owner needs to pay so little heed or attention to their property that someone can occupy it in a purposeful way as their own for 12 years! Why should someone be entitled to leave liveable land untouched, unguarded and uninspected for such a long period of time?



That's the concern of society as a whole though. Vacant liveable land and property is a waste to society, physically and emotionally.

And it could take decades for the state to finally take control of the land if it actually is abandoned or there's no living owner or someone who knows they're entitled to the land through their relationship with possibly deceased owners.

Graces7

Turfcutter wrote: »

Wrong answer...
You moved in 12 years ago :pac:

Ah but you would have to prove that. eg utility bills for you at that address.

LuckyLloyd

Graces7 wrote: »

Ah but you would have to prove that. eg utility bills for you at that address.

And that’s the thing, adverse possession is necessarily hard to prove. A well known case in Ireland was rejected as the court concluded that the landowner periodically looking at his land from the road meant he was exercising his rights as he saw fit. The burden is on the plaintiff to prove adverse possession with requisite intent.

Mrs OBumble

handlemaster wrote: »

Why do so many think its ok to move into a property you do not own ?. Its not your property dont move in. Does property rights not mean anything anymore ?The government are already crazy against landlords now we have the man on the street thinking I dont know who owns a property so its ok to move in and claim that property.

Because it's the mechanism which Irish law provides for dealing with these cases.

Now I can think of a few better approaches which don't involve individuals in land-grabbing. But none of them are allowed under the law in this country at the moment.

Del2005

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You cannot forcibly remove them, no. You'd notify them that you are the owner; enlist legal advice; and pursue your rights via the courts. You'd be eventually granted legal possession and the occupant given a short period to get their affairs in order and move on.



While people might not like the idea of it, adverse possession is a concept that maintains the value of land. Simply put, while you might feel that property rights are absolute, failure to exercise active use of land is a waste to society. A property gathering dust with no interest from its owners for 15 years (or maybe owners no longer alive who failed to make provisions for it) is a sad thing. Were someone to move into it, and intentionally fix it up and occupy it as their own then:

- the local area benefits by liveable land being used appropriately
- the owners ultimately benefit if they reclaim it through the courts within the next 12 years

So the advice in this situation - providing the OP has done his homework and the owners have genuinely ignored it for 15 years - is to move in and use it as a home. Fix it up, live there, register utilities and services to the property and query trespassers. It is important to note that just being on abandoned land does not equal adverse possession as these differing cases illustrate:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/state-fails-in-bid-to-evict-squatter-1.698608

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/man-not-entited-to-squatters-rights-1.2006109

So if while you are at the shops if I can get access to your house without criminal damage it's mine for several months. That's cool, I've no idea why I've bothered to get a mortgage or why people are homeless when all you need to do is pick a lock and everywhere can yours.

I've no problem with adverse possession but once the owner turns up the attempted theft should be dealt with by the criminal system, if they get to 12 years without the owners noticing then they can start the adverse process but up till 12 years they are stealing and that's criminal.

LuckyLloyd

Del2005 wrote: »

So if while you are at the shops if I can get access to your house without criminal damage it's mine for several months. That's cool, I've no idea why I've bothered to get a mortgage or why people are homeless when all you need to do is pick a lock and everywhere can yours.

I've no problem with adverse possession but once the owner turns up the attempted theft should be dealt with by the criminal system, if they get to 12 years without the owners noticing then they can start the adverse process but up till 12 years they are stealing and that's criminal.

In the scenario you describe the reality of contents, active services into the house, etc would complicate the issue and give the Gardai scope to get involved.

In Adverse Possession cases we're typically talking about buildings left completely idle for a long period of time, or where an owner has passed on with no next of kin and / or provision for the property in a will. The situations are not one and the same.

But the bottom line here is to protect one's property, inspect it regularly and actively own it. And obviously to make provision for it. I'm sure many Dublin people are familiar with the type of squats that have sprung up over the years in abandoned Georgian properties, and equally with the type of protections added to many of those types of buildings where the owner has no immediate interest in renovating / using same. We often have to actively assert and protect our rights in life, and seek redress via the courts as necessary.

Techold

LirW wrote: »

Adverse Possession. Basically what Samuel said, move in, hope you don't get into trouble with the original owner for 12 years, then apply for adverse possession, congrats you have a house. If your research has shown that the properties are idle for such a long time, how likely would it be that they ever show up, especially in a rural area?
Maybe when doing that save a good amount of cash away if the owner ever shows up and offer to buy it off them.

Its called stealing