Dublin Metrolink - future routes for next Metrolink

cgcsb

Howth branch has level crossings and closing them would be a political nightmare.

But yes I think Tallaght to Coolock is the logical next step for metro.

Then if we have DART Underground fine, but if not an East West metro through the city centre

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122658243#Comment_122658243

Why would you not spend a modest amount reducing long term cost of running the line, particularly the original alignment where it was essentially through long sections of brown field. I don't know, I really can't see how you wouldn't future proof such a line unless it's avoidable, such as on street running in town.

gjim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122656140#Comment_122656140

Actually there's a significant amount of high density development going on in Howth at the moment - there's a wall of what looks like 7 or 8 story apartment blocks being constructed as you approach the village.

I think any Tallaght-Coolock future ML line should at least continue to Howth Junction to provide a connection with the Northern coastal DART service. The reason ML is so superior to the old MetroNorth plan is because of its integration with heavy rail/DART at both Glasnevin and Tara. A Tallaght-Howth Junction ML line would be the better for having connections at Howth Junction and say Drumcondra.

Continuing beyond HJ to Howth itself - replacing the current DART spur with metro - is more a nice-to-have. You'd need to build a few bridges to remove the level crossings. At the same time, it would offer a far superior service to Howth than the shuttle.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122661466#Comment_122661466

If metrolink 2 is starting at tallaght, what route would you have it take on its way out to Howth?

OisinCooke

A potential route I would see would be:

Tallaght-Firhouse-Knocklyon-Ballyboden-Willbrook-Rathfarmham-Terenure-Harold’s X-Portobello-St. Patrick’s Cathedral-Temple Bar/Christchurch (DU Interchange) - OCS-Croke Park/Drumcondra Station (halfway between the two with a dedicated entrance/exit at each, and appropriate Crowd Cntrl measures at the Croke Park Jones’ Rd entrance) - Whitehall-Beaumont-Artane-Coolock-Edenmore-Kilbarrack-Howth Jnct…

Another option would be Tallaght-Perrystown/Templeogue-Kimmage-Harolds X and then follow the same route through the city and northside.

This is not research-backed just based on areas of population density that are much less suited to a Luas and would need another form of Rapid Transit, ie. a Metro

gjim

There might be a case for swinging West from Tallaght instead - to Walkinstown before getting to Harold's X to take in some of the potential in Ballymount for dense residential development.

I think you'd want to follow the ML playbook and avoid as much as possible the need for any deep or mined stations.

Spots suitable for central stations would be Harold's X Park, St. Patrick's Park, Wood Quay, Wolftone Square/Red Luas (tight) and Mountjoy Square. The interchange with ML1 under O'Connell Street would be tricky as would Drumcondra but it would be a big miss to pass under the DART line without providing a connection. And it's not obvious where to provide a station between Harold's X and Patricks. North of Drumcondra the route nearly picks itself - pretty much follow @OisinCooke's route - there are plenty of patches of green to allow station construction at Whitehall, Beaumont, Coolock, etc.

spacetweek

A agreed about that Ring via Ballymount, it’s the only way to get the required density in the south west unless you want to start buying up hundreds of houses in Cambridge and demolishing them. This is in China so that’s not gonna happen.

OisinCooke

If the next Metro was constructed from Tallaght to Clongriffin, ideally it should interchange with other modes as much as possible, Metro 1, DART, DART Underground, Luas Red, Luas Green, and a south city Luas Line. The problem is that with the proximity of all these lines in the city centre, connecting with all of them becomes tricky. I feel that the essential connections are Metrolink 1 and DART Underground, them being the cities two (hopefully existing by the time Metro 2 comes along) high frequency high capacity rail links.

After that however, its tricky. A link with the Western commuter lines in the Drumcondra area seems like a good idea but Drumcondra station itself doesn't have near enough space to expand to an interchange station with the Metro. I feel that a station at Croke Park would serve the function twofold. Have an entrance to Croke Park into the Cusack plaza to facilitate match day traffic and another onto a Croke Park station on the MGWR Docklands branch which itself had an exit onto Jones' Road.

In terms of the DU and Metrolink 1 interchange, Christchurch and O'Connell Street respectively seem like good plans. The stop on O'Connell Street could be positioned south of the Metrolink 1 platform to have both an end-to-end connection, and an exit from the station with a ticket hall closer to the Red Line, it could be a tube-station style setup where you can access both lines from either ticket hall. Christchurch could double up as a stop for the south city Luas as well depending on what route that takes.

These are just a few thoughts that were knocking around my head but I know that to connect all of the lines would be quite difficult. Does anyone else have any thoughts on it? Anything I've blatantly missed?

citizen6

On the northside, would you go via Beaumont Hospital or Malahide Road? If the latter, the Clontarf golf course could be used for construction, with high density housing afterwards.

OisinCooke

I would say that going by Beaumont, Artane/Coolock and Darndale before turning towards Clongriffin would be the plan, with a Luas more likely suited to the Malahide Road. Either way though I think the endgame for Clontarf GC along with many other Golf Clubs in urban locations is that they would eventually become high density housing and urban villages - they’ll certainly have to in the next few decades by the looks of things

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122739212#Comment_122739212

The problem with an interchange station at Croke Park is the capacity to handle match-day crowds.

KrisW1001

Croke Park could still be an interchange location if the interchange can be prevented on match/event days. What I mean is that, in normal operations, the station complex allows free transfer between services, but on event days, by blocking/opening certain corridors it becomes two parallel, separate stations, both serving the stadium, but not allowing movement from one service to another. (Interchange passengers could still change, but would have to completely exit one station and enter the other). Removing cross-service flows would increase the throughput of the station corridors.

There’s space (just about) to build a DART station on the MGWR (Canal) line at Croke Park. DART trains can already deal with match and concert crowds at Lansdowne Road. Match-day crowds should not be an issue for an automated metro, as you'd just run trains more frequently over the peak period. Marshalling will be needed at the stadium after events to ensure passengers don't try to overload trains, but this is exactly what’s done at Lansdowne Road on match-days, so it shouldn’t be an issue.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122744120#Comment_122744120

London Underground close stations near stadiums around match-day, Grand Canal Dock is closed at Lansdowne Road, I am not so certain there won't be a problem.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122739212#Comment_122739212

Was thinking about this again. Would Metro 2 work by staying further west, interchanging at Heuston with inter-city and Luas, underground to Glasnevin Junction and interchanging with Metro 1 and Dart West and South-West before swinging east across to Clongriffin and maybe finishing at a suitable location to interchange with Dart North?

Or would that overlap too much with Metro 1?

McAlban

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122744120#Comment_122744120

Always Baffled me why they didn't add a station under the Davin Stand, or at the Hill during reconstruction. I always remember GAA Special's being run from various counties during big All Ireland Days in the past. I'd imagine there's space constraints now, but at the time both were being rebuilt it may have been possible.

salmocab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123026297#Comment_123026297

Oddly I think for safety that would be too near the stadium. It probably needs to have room for people to get out and then join long winding queues

spacetweek

Yep. You wouldn’t put the station right underneath the stadium or even adjacent to it, the massive crowds on match days would cause dangerous crushing situations in the station.

Idbatterim

One of the future routes, is surely down the N11? would save upgrading the luas line and would take masses of buses off the n11 and out of the city centre, by extension?

was looking at google satelitte, imagine the amount of residential, you could accomodate by moving baldonell and also building on grange castle golf club. You could put in a massive multistorey park and ride there, just off the N7… That land is right beside, the massive, Corcagh park… You could then go to multiple routes, go down towards terenure, rathgar, rathmines, ranelagh for example… You could make it a massive west to east spine, under heuston and all the way to Poolbeg / dublin port (which could be redeveloped and provide homes to tens of thousands). If we went off the current irish glass bottle site, I wonder how many dublin port lands would home. It woud be 100,000 plus, easily…

Ive no idea where they want to house, the amount of people they are talking about housing, in the Dublin area, unless a recession hits, its going to be hilarious to see, where all of this, ends up…

OisinCooke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123033359#Comment_123033359

I think a future metro line down the N11 would be much too close to the DART to be feasible, the catchment areas would overlap too much for what are both effectively two heavy rail lines. A metro down the current Green Line and a Luas down the N11 does make much more sense, because it would be far more cost efficient and transport efficient - you would not need to tunnel anything virtually, as the N11 is wide enough that you could easily have the Luas completely on-street from Leeson Street all the way south to Stillorgan and the metro can and should take the Green Line’s alignment (although this upgrade project should be done on a massive scope, with as many teams as possible doing all parts of the line at the same time so as to have the line closed for as little time as possible)

Idbatterim

Good points, but, the amount of junctions on the n11 is insane... would they start doing what they do in proper cities and start putting in under passes etc or flyovers etc?

They should also build the eastern bypass in my opinion... you could get from sandyford to m1 / airport, in half the time it takes via the overloaded m50... make it very expensive for cars during peak hours, like the port tunnel, have it mostly for trucks and buses...

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123037053#Comment_123037053

A better approach is to build out the N11 Luas line first, then close the existing Green line for conversion to Metro, and join the top of the N11 line to Charlemont Luas stop. (Less litigious locations are available)

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123037441#Comment_123037441

Send the N11 Luas line down Adelaide Road to join up with the Green Line before Harcourt.

Have the Metro tie in to the Green Line at Ranelagh.

Abandon Charlemont Luas stop, it can become a drug dispensing area for local dealers or something. Residents will be happier with that.

OisinCooke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123037441#Comment_123037441

Completely agree with this, but was just saying that even still, the metro tie-in and all of the associated upgrades of the line should all be done simultaneously by a huge team all working on different aspects of the project at the same time to get it done as quickly as possible - it might be more expensive than the otherwise proposed 4 year time frame but should be doable in much less time theoretically and the saving in time will be heavily worth it.

And yes a link from just beyond Harcourt Street down Adelaide Road to the Morehampton Road would be ideal and have the least amount of impact possible. Charlemont stop could even be kept as a stub terminus of the Green Line at peak times, for trams coming from north or south, with an onward metro connection from there. Alternatively it could become the terminus/stub terminus of some future line so the station should definitely be kept I feel.