Dodgy Speed Cushions

Mercian Pro

Yes, these things.

Last year Fingal County Council installed about ten of these in pairs on the Ratoath Road at Hollystown. They are made of rubber and are bolted and glued onto the road surface. Unlike tarmac speed cushions which are flush with the road surface at the edge, these ones have vertical upstands on all sides that range from 10 to 25mm in height depending on how well they have been fixed.

Having touched a wheel off the edge of one last November and very nearly coming off, I wrote to Fingal claiming that they were unsafe for cyclists and "an accident waiting to happen". After a few reminders, their Road Engineer replied stating that the were installed in line with the guidelines and that all users should obey the "slow" signs! I am still waiting to hear what guidelines he referred to.

Last Sunday week I became part of the awaiting accident when a club mate crashed just in front of me as he tried to avoid the edge of the cushion. Both myself and the rider behind me came down with varying degrees of damage to bodies and bikes. I am now trying to find out what Government Department or Agency sets standards for traffic calming measures to see if Fingal can be persuaded or forced to remove these speed cushions and replace them with a safer design.

Any thoughts or advice welcome.

magicbastarder

regardless of how you get on, i've always found these to be counterproductive. a normal speed ramp gives a motorist no cause to change position, but i've seen car drivers swerve into the middle of the road to avoid the worst effect of these.
not specifically at the ones you mention, but i've seen a near accident on the stretch past aldi in mulhuddart. i'm not sure if those ramps are still there.

ED E

Mercian Pro wrote: »

I am now trying to find out what Government Department or Agency sets standards for traffic calming measures to see if Fingal can be persuaded or forced to remove these speed cushions and replace them with a safer design.

The injuries board. Slap em with 40k in compo and they'll change em. Before that, bonne chance!

Raam

magicbastarder wrote: »

regardless of how you get on, i've always found these to be counterproductive. a normal speed ramp gives a motorist no cause to change position, but i've seen car drivers swerve into the middle of the road to avoid the worst effect of these.
not specifically at the ones you mention, but i've seen a near accident on the stretch past aldi in mulhuddart. i'm not sure if those ramps are still there.

Driving instructors teach that, at least one I used did anyway.

benjamin d

magicbastarder wrote: »

regardless of how you get on, i've always found these to be counterproductive. a normal speed ramp gives a motorist no cause to change position, but i've seen car drivers swerve into the middle of the road to avoid the worst effect of these.
not specifically at the ones you mention, but i've seen a near accident on the stretch past aldi in mulhuddart. i'm not sure if those ramps are still there.

I never got them either. When I'm driving I'll maaaybe slow a little on these, when I'm cycling they can be dangerous as stated. I've been squeezed by cars trying to go over left of the main bump a good few times, so if there's traffic I sometimes feel obliged to go over the peak of them to avoid that. And I've often observed the dangerous game of chicken between cars for who gets to take the centre of the road over them.

As much as I dislike full width tarmac ramps, I have to say they slow cars right down.

ford2600

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1988/si/32/made/en/print

Did they apply properly to put them in. FOI on how they complied with newspaper notification etc.

Are they close enough to light standards as per schedule 2?

EDIT; That might be revoked
http://www.irishstatut...7/sec0038.html#sec38

Edit 2: http://www.dttas.ie/ro...agement-guidelines-0

Page 101

Hurrache

ED E wrote: »

The injuries board. Slap em with 40k in compo and they'll change em. Before that, bonne chance!

They won't. They're the standard Fingal seem to use now and by and large they're accident free.

I do know the residents in that area have pushed for them a long time as other measures weren't working (the digital sign, occasional Garda check at the church) so there'll be a struggle to have them removed and replaced with any other type at this moment time.

The same ones are still in Mulhuddart too.

ford2600 wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1988/si/32/made/en/print

Did they apply properly to put them in. FOI on how they complied with newspaper notification etc.

Are they close enough to light standards as per schedule 2?

EDIT; That might be revoked
http://www.irishstatut...7/sec0038.html#sec38

I'm sure it's all done by the books. In documentation I've seen one of the reasons for their delay was because street lighting was to be installed first down where there was previously none.

Fighting Tao

Schedule 2 states that the centre of the rampmust be within 5 metres of a street lamp. Are there street lamps there?

Hurrache

It's a ****ty road alright, potholes are constantly being repaired, ideally it needs resurfacing.

Hurrache

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Schedule 2 states that the centre of the rampmust be within 5 metres of a street lamp. Are there street lamps there?

That one looks to be between the petrol station and the "Swing" roundabout, and if so, yes, brand new ones.

Fighting Tao

Are speed cushions actually permitted. The SI doesn’t seem to mention them.

For ramps:
5. Each ramp shall—

( a ) be constructed of hot rolled asphalt,

( b ) extend across the width of the roadway between channels,

( c ) be 3.7 metres in length in the direction of the roadway,

( d ) have a maximum height at the centre above the road surface of 10 centimetres,

( e ) be properly secured so as to prevent movement, and

( f ) be painted with reflectorised white paint.


If speed cushions are not allowed then they would possibly fall under the ramp section and it looks like they would fail the specifications.

Hurrache

Yes, the argument for that type is that they cater for buses and emergency vehicles. Other than a school bus there's no other form of public bus transport down that road.

But you do get lot of farm machinery and trucks/heavy artics.

doolox

As a car driver the speed buttons do not slow me down on bit as they are easy to straddle for a driver even of moderate ability...which I would rate myself.

The cynic in me thinks that they allow politicians and councillors to claim to be doing something when confronted by disgruntled parents and other people demanding traffic calming measures in their neighbourhood. In practical terms they do not slow traffic down by any meaningful degree.

The SI details are interesting in that the max height allowed is 100mm = 4 inches. The monsters on Bunting Road are way higher than 4 inches and are guaranteed axle breakers at anything greater than 10kph.......

Hurrache

And there's the problem right there, the presence of speed cushions, signs and speed readouts is still not enough of a reminder for some that there may be an issue with inappropriate speed on the road they're on.

Kaisr Sose

Weepsie wrote: »

Not fixing the pot hole before putting them in is incompetent at best and near criminal at worst. For that alone they should be ripped up.

Yep. You won’t get quality in Ireland, even if you pay double the going rate...it’s ok as it is, the long out of date Irish way for everthing.

Wishbone Ash

Weepsie wrote: »

Not fixing the pot hole before putting them in is incompetent at best and near criminal at worst. For that alone they should be ripped up.

I think that hole appeared after the heavy snow in March - long after the cushions were installed.

Fighting Tao wrote: »

.... Are there street lamps there?

Yes.

magicbastarder

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

Yep. You won’t get quality in Ireland, even if you pay double the going rate...it’s ok as it is, the long out of date Irish way for everthing.

you *have* been to other countries, yes? things are done wrong there too.

ED E

Hurrache wrote: »

They won't. They're the standard Fingal seem to use now and by and large they're accident free.

How do you know? There are ~4 serious cyclist injuries per day but very few are reported anywhere.

Hurrache

ED E wrote: »

How do you know? There are ~4 serious cyclist injuries per day but very few are reported anywhere.

If there was a spate caused by those cushions alone and Fingal were found to be responsible in just one case you can bet they'd revise their use.

Wishbone Ash

Hurrache wrote: »

If there was a spate caused by those cushions alone and Fingal were found to be responsible in just one case you can bet they'd revise their use.

As has been said, most cycling accidents go unreported. Only a small minority would instigate legal action.

And even if they were forced to compensate road users, it doesn't necessarily mean they'd revise their use. They may argue that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

Rechuchote

Ask for them to be replaced with these (an optical illusion that various countries have tried out on dodgy zebra crossing - the painting is done to give the effect of 3D, but it's a flat road)

Kaisr Sose

magicbastarder wrote: »

you *have* been to other countries, yes? things are done wrong there too.

Of course I have, but I have never seen any country, that Ireland would like to be benchmarked against/see itself as compatible to, where things are as ship shod/lax as they are allowed to be here.

Mercian Pro

Thanks all for your comments and suggestions.

I am still waiting to hear back from the Road Engineer in Fingal on what guidelines they used and from the Department of Tourism, Transport and Sport as to whether they are responsible for setting guidelines. I have checked out the documents mentioned and also the English Advisory Leaflets and Reports that are referenced. In a number of documents there is reference to a maximum vertical edge height of 6mm and this is where the problem lies as the edges of the Hollystown cushions are up to 25mm high in places. While most road tyres will be able to handle a 6mm step alongside the wheel, you would need MB tyres to handle a 25mm one.

On the question of how many other cyclists have fallen on these or similar ramps, I have no idea and I suspect no one else does either. Even though three of us came down in the crash, no one needed an ambulance and no one contacted the Gardaí. I don't imagine Fingal keep a record of what they probably regard as a crank complaint.

In future I think I will cycle over the centre of these cushions as the temporary discomfort is a lot less than that of a cut and sprained ankle

Wishbone Ash

Mercian Pro wrote: »

...In future I think I will cycle over the centre of these cushions ...

That's what I was doing when you and the others hit the deck right in front of me. Unless all of the group do the same, it won't necessarily be any safer as there's a natural inclination to go along the side.

RobertFoster

The pothole before one of the ramps (outbound at the garage) where I got a pinch flat a couple of weeks ago has received a blob of tarmac filling. Not exactly the resolution I was looking for when I reported it on FixYourStreet.ie The innie has become an outie, it's still lousy to navigate.

Hurrache

That particular pothole is a feature of the road at this stage, it's continuously being filled and worn away. It was only what felt like a couple of months ago when I spun by just after it was filled.

Rechuchote

Proper road mending just isn't done any more. Roads that need resurfacing are treated with a spade of tarmac and a smack of the shovel.

magicbastarder

there's a string of dodgy potholes on the ballymun road, with dodgy repairs, northbound opposite the side entrance to DCU.

Hurrache

All the potholes on that stretch (Hollystown) have been patched today. The sinking around the speed cushion in question is filled in for now.

buffalo

I like this:

https://twitter.com/4ChordsNoNet/status/999379806860038145

RobertFoster

Would they work on two way roads, or would cars just straddle the middle cushions? I saw someone in a Golf take that position with the current setup already.

Fighting Tao

Traffic islands could also be installed on two way roads to calm traffic even more.

rubadub

magicbastarder wrote: »

a normal speed ramp gives a motorist no cause to change position,

Not sure if you would consider these "normal speed ramps".

https://goo.gl/maps/6QGJzssZy5Q2

These are the type I see most and many cars do change position, they swerve right in towards the kerb so have the car does not see the ramp. I often wondered if this imbalance was worse for the car.

In the google maps link the car is parked, but it is in the position many will take. On that road and smilar ones cars race between ramps, to try and keep up the same average speed. So very counterproductive. I often have cars race up and then pull in dangerously close to me as they try to half avoid the ramp.

RobertFoster

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Traffic islands could also be installed on two way roads to calm traffic even more.

I always think traffic calming is a misnomer for traffic islands as cars try to squeeze past or sit close on your wheel. Especially the long ones like outside Intel in Leixlip or north of Ashbourne.

eeeee

RobertFoster wrote: »

I always think traffic calming is a misnomer for traffic islands as cars try to squeeze past or sit close on your wheel. Especially the long ones like outside Intel in Leixlip or north of Ashbourne.

Also hate traffic islands. Traffic constantly trying to squeeze past, you gave to be really assertive riding by them. Daily cars try to nose in by me at them :rolleyes:

plodder

Raam wrote: »

Driving instructors teach that, at least one I used did anyway.

When my daughter was learning to drive a couple of years ago, one instructor told her to drive straight over them without changing position, and another said try to avoid them

loyatemu

they have those speed cushions on the main road near me, I'd say 20% of all cars drive down the middle of the road to avoid them, so they're encouraging bad driving behaviour (with the caveat that those drivers are also idiots).

I like the system they use in 30k zones in France; alternating chicanes where you have to yield to oncoming traffic - the cycle lane usually goes the other side of the chicane.

Wishbone Ash

RobertFoster wrote: »

I always think traffic calming is a misnomer for traffic islands as cars try to squeeze past or sit close on your wheel. Especially the long ones like outside Intel in Leixlip or north of Ashbourne.

....and the ones around Julianstown too. We've had a few near misses on club runs there with idiots passing and then trying to squeeze back in.

Rechuchote

A nice one at a bus stop in Harold's Cross, always reminds me of Munch's The Scream

Mercian Pro

Reviving this old thread as Fingal have just installed about six pairs of prefabricated speed cusions along Broadmeadows between the railway bridge and the sailing club. The seem to be a different make to the ones at Hollystown but have a similar vertical edge that could easily catch a narrow bike wheel. They are obviously a cheaper option than cutting pockets in the road and forming tarmac cushions but the tarmac ones generally have a smooth transition between the road surface and the ramp.

Rechuchote

Maybe write to traffic dublincity ie and tell them this type of hump is dangerous. That's also the address where you write to ask for bike racks in a particular place, by the way.

magicbastarder

wrong local authority, unfortunately!

Rechuchote

D'oh.

Worth phoning the council involved and asking what section to address your letter to.

magicbastarder

am i jkust misremembering, or did i once hear it claimed that a local authority cannot be held liable for damage to health or property, down to flawed or broken roads, unless the issue has been drawn to their attention prior to the damage?
i.e. they operate a 'we can't monitor and be aware of every pothole, etc.' policy - so if that's true (and colour me sceptical unless someone can confirm it for me), the first step would be to inform the council? that would remove a leg of their defence should an incident occur.

loyatemu

magicbastarder wrote: »

am i jkust misremembering, or did i once hear it claimed that a local authority cannot be held liable for damage to health or property, down to flawed or broken roads, unless the issue has been drawn to their attention prior to the damage?
i.e. they operate a 'we can't monitor and be aware of every pothole, etc.' policy - so if that's true (and colour me sceptical unless someone can confirm it for me), the first step would be to inform the council? that would remove a leg of their defence should an incident occur.

AFAIK They can't be held liable unless it can be proven they were negligent. In the case of potholes this means you have to prove the hole developed as a result of their shoddy workmanship (even if they've been told about it)

However if they've installed a speed ramp that's dangerous to cyclists, then that's clearly their responsibility.