Any law regarding turning off your car at a traffic light?

lifeandtimes

Just a thought I had.

If someone was driving a car and came to a red light, Is there any law preventing them from taking their keys out of the ignition and then putting them back in when the light is green?

Side question, if someone was to then use their phone could they still be fined/ recieve penalty points if a guard approached them for doing so? This question also applies to newer cars who's engines shut off at traffic lights

Thanks

mickuhaha

Your asking is it legal to park your car in the middle of the road?

mickuhaha

Road Traffic Act, 1961, Section 98 -98.—(1) A person shall not do any act (whether of commission or omission) which causes or is likely to cause traffic through any public place to be obstructed.

(2) A person who contravenes subsection (1) of this section shall be guilty of an offence.

(3) Where a person is charged with an offence under this section, it shall be a good defence to the charge for him to show that there was lawful authority for the act complained of or that it was due to unavoidable accident.

Eric Cartman

don't use your phone in the car (except voice through bluetooth) , don't text and drive , even at traffic lights, its not that hard.

stop looking for loopholes that allow you to be a traffic disruption without it being illegal.

simple.

lifeandtimes

Anyone who frequents this forum knows I'm not nor have I ever looked to break the law. In fact I have hands-free kit which is connected to my stereo via Bluetooth. I asked this question to allow legal discussion as per the forum rules

My question is not regarding obstructing traffic, it may fall under parking in the middle of the road technically but only until the light is green at which point the car is then started and the driver drives off.

If A driver removes the keys at a traffic light and then uses his or her phone only to then put it down, put the keys back in the ignition and drive when green do this fall under an offence?

hullaballoo

The question really is how is "while driving" or similar (like "in control of a vehicle" etc.) defined for the purposes of specific offences that are only capable of being offences "while driving".

The answer on the basis of the case law is that a very broad interpretation is given for "while driving" etc. so that stupid things like taking your keys out of the ignition while in traffic don't result in an inadvertent defence to a charge.

If you are in a car and determining where the car goes and what it does, you are driving, in charge, in control of the vehicle and all the interpretive gymnastics in the world are unlikely to give rise to a valid defence.

lifeandtimes

hullaballoo wrote: »

The question really is how is "while driving" or similar (like "in control of a vehicle" etc.) defined for the purposes of specific offences that are only capable of being offences "while driving".

The answer on the basis of the case law is that a very broad interpretation is given for "while driving" etc. so that stupid things like taking your keys out of the ignition while in traffic don't result in an inadvertent defence to a charge.

If you are in a car and determining where the car goes and what it does, you are driving, in charge, in control of the vehicle and all the interpretive gymnastics in the world are unlikely to give rise to a valid defence.

Thanks hullaballoo, I had a feeling you might chime in.

That's what I was wondering and what the actually wording was. You've cleared that up though so thanks.

If it's such a broad term that can be interpreted in so many different ways what's to stop a guard coming up to you and fining you after you've parked outside your house or even at the side of the road to make a call, that could still be considered the same as taking the keys out while sitting in traffic or at a light No?

Atlantic Dawn

Why take the keys out of the car when you could just turn the ignition off with the key?

MayoSalmon

Eric Cartman wrote:

don't use your phone in the car (except voice through bluetooth) , don't text and drive , even at traffic lights, its not that hard.

Picking up your phone off the passenger seat and pressing the next song on Spotify while completely stationary at a set of red lights that just went red too is against the law. Don't really get that one to be honest.

lifeandtimes

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Why take the keys out of the car when you could just turn the ignition off with the key?

Because I believe if the keys are still in the ignition it's considered in control of a vehicle while on.

A man got arrested for drink driving while in a lay by because he had gone asleep to sleep off the drink but left the keys in to listen to the radio and turn on the heating

ED E

In driving under the influence cases I believe it has gone both ways with keys in to "run the heat" so it would probably be up to the judge if you were silly enough to challenge the FCPN.

Eric Cartman

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Picking up your phone off the passenger seat and pressing the next song on Spotify while completely stationary at a set of red lights that just went red too is against the law. Don't really get that one to be honest.

meh my steering wheel controls change tracks on my iPhone so there are ways around it, but to be fair if the unfairness of that punishes even 1 ignorant wagon with the phone glued to the steering wheel texting then I'm all for it.

lifeandtimes

ED E wrote: »

In driving under the influence cases I believe it has gone both ways with keys in to "run the heat" so it would probably be up to the judge if you were silly enough to challenge the FCPN.

True, I think the lay by fella had a good excuse until they asked how he got the car there in the first place if he was under the influence.

However my question is in relation to stationary car that hasn't been turned on traffic and the driver using a mobile phone.

Hullaballoo made a good point but I think it could be challenged which is why I'm looking for discussion on it

lifeandtimes

Eric Cartman wrote: »

meh my steering wheel controls change tracks on my iPhone so there are ways around it, but to be fair if the unfairness of that punishes even 1 ignorant wagon with the phone glued to the steering wheel texting then I'm all for it.

Lots of ignorance with some drivers.

Saw a fella today driving with a pair of massive beats by dre on, like how can someone think that's ok

Canis Lupus

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Lots of ignorance with some drivers.

Saw a fella today driving with a pair of massive beats by dre on, like how can someone think that's ok

Beats is a poor choice of headphone alright.

Eric Cartman

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Lots of ignorance with some drivers.

Saw a fella today driving with a pair of massive beats by dre on, like how can someone think that's ok

I drive about 30-35k a year, most of it around Dublin City, if there was some way of tickling somebody in 2 minutes or less and I was given an unmarked car, I reckon I could have over 2000 penalty points a day every single day issued for being on the phone, driving without due care and attention (headphones, makeup, shaving)

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Markcheese

A lot of cars these days the key doesn't even go in the ignition. Just in your bag / pocket, and the same cars usually have stop/start feature...

But yeah... If you are stopped at say a level crossing for 5 mins with the engine off - are you stopped or parked....

pablo128

Let's be honest. No one hangs up a call when the light goes green. So you are either going to sit there holding up traffic or else start the car and drive off on the phone.

Bluetooth earpieces cost peanuts these days. There's no excuse.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

lifeandtimes

Markcheese wrote: »

A lot of cars these days the key doesn't even go in the ignition. Just in your bag / pocket, and the same cars usually have stop/start feature...

But yeah... If you are stopped at say a level crossing for 5 mins with the engine off - are you stopped or parked....

That's my argument, new cars have engines that turn off and then turn back on when the driver wants to move forward, I doubt legislation has moved as quickly as cars have progressed so there is probably a challange in there

***Note: I am not promoting using a phone while driving, I'm just discussing the legal aspects of it with cars

lifeandtimes

pablo128 wrote: »

Let's be honest. No one hangs up a call when the light goes green. So you are either going to sit there holding up traffic or else start the car and drive off on the phone.

Bluetooth earpieces cost peanuts these days. There's no excuse.

This isn't about the morality of it or what should be done. It's a discussion of the current legislation vrs what COULD be done to challange it

lifeandtimes

Fred Swanson wrote: »

Stopped in the course of traffic.

Does that cover inactive engine's fred?

Glass fused light

The traffic act 1961 has in the "3. Interpretation" section

3.— (1) In this Act, save where the context otherwise requires—
.....

“ driving” includes managing and controlling and, in relation to a bicycle or tricycle, riding, and “ driver” and other cognate words shall be construed accordingly;

and if the driver has the keys or easy access to the keys eg on the passenger seat as opposed to in the boot. So if you are not parked up but in an active driving lane it would be hard to argue against being in control.

pablo128

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Does that cover inactive engine's fred?

You cannot sit out in a lane of traffic and claim to be parked. The same way you couldn't park your car out in the road and pop into the shops for a few minutes.

I understand what you're trying to say, but it wouldn't work with a guard or a judge I'm afraid.

gctest50

Comes under "in control of the veeeehicle "

You either are or you are not

in control ? = shouldn't be playing with phone

not in control ? = in the middle of the road, people everywhere around you and your car is out of control ? jail

next

prinzeugen

gctest50 wrote: »

Comes under "in control of the veeeehicle "

You either are or you are not

in control ? = shouldn't be playing with phone

not in control ? = in the middle of the road, people everywhere around you and your car is out of control ? jail

next

I was thinking the same.

I remember a few cases in the UK from the mid 90's, when some Darwin award winners thought it would be a good idea to turn the engine off on downhill roads and use gravity to save fuel..

Of course the steering lock went on when they next turned the wheel and they came off the road.

IIRC one was fatal and the police could not understand how the car was moving at 70odd mph when the keys were not in the ignition.

Victor

There might be a charge of driving without due care and attention.

Under the Road Traffic Acts, parking is part of driving.

Markcheese wrote: »

If you are stopped at say a level crossing for 5 mins with the engine off - are you stopped or parked....

Stopped - you would move off, but for some external factor. If you are parked, it is an internal factor (your decision) that decides whether you move.

Peregrinus

lifeandtimes wrote: »

That's my argument, new cars have engines that turn off and then turn back on when the driver wants to move forward, I doubt legislation has moved as quickly as cars have progressed so there is probably a challange in there

***Note: I am not promoting using a phone while driving, I'm just discussing the legal aspects of it with cars

But there are two separate questions:

1. Is it illegal for your ignition to be off when the car is stopped at lights, waiting to proceed when the lights turn green?

Answer: no. But if you fail to move off smartly when the lights change there could be an offence there.

2. Does this mean you can use your phone, in that situation, while the ignition is off?

Answer: No. The fact that the ignition is disengaged pending the lights changing does not mean that you are not "driving".

And a question you raised earlier:

3 "What's to stop a guard coming up to you and fining you after you've parked outside your house or even at the side of the road to make a call, that could still be considered the same as taking the keys out while sitting in traffic or at a light No?"

If you're sitting in the car the guard could take the view that you are there so that you can move the car if need be - e.g. if you are parked in a place that you have no right to park in. If you being in the car is associated with you being in control of the car, then you can be taken to be "driving". Perhaps if you were sitting in the back seat, or had the car parked at a metered spot with the meter/ticket paid, you might be in a stronger position.

4. So what am I to do?

Get out of the car to use the phone. It's not that hard to work out what to do, or to do it.

lifeandtimes

Thanks for all your input everyone.

Appreciate your answers