Hello...Anyone Home?

greenpilot

Hi,

I was trawling Live ATC on a certain day and discovered an incident very early in the morning. I asked around, (as I work part-time for a local paper) and no-one, including the IAA, seemed to know anything about it. Anyway, it makes for interesting listening and Im not sure whether I should even write a piece on it, but the bare bones of the story is this....;

1. Crew of Private BJ arrive very, very early at Airport.
2. There is no-one around.
3. The weather is 6C, foggy/misty, winds calm.
4. Crew announce to "Airport Traffic" that they are repositioning their aircraft and merrily make their way down the runway and off to another point at said airport.
5. No communication is forthcoming from Tower, Grnd, or anyone.
6. There is no Follow-Me Vehicle
7. Crew announce to the ether that they have arrived at said point.
8. Still no word from tower.
9. Finally, after an hour, Tower calls the aircraft and begins to give requested Clearances. At the end of the conversation, the Tower asks how did the aircraft move and did the pilot have assistance. Pilot says "No, there was no-one around". Tower tells pilot that he is going to be reported.

Now, after spending a few hours asking various bodies, including the said airport, it seems that either no-one knows about this, no wants to know. Thankfully, I have the whole incident recorded, plus I have the reg of the aircraft in question.

Is it a story worth printing?, I do not know. It is, however, quite interesting to listen to. Anyone here hear (Ive always wanted to write that..) of said incident?
Ive looked at the IAA Rules of the Air publication, and It seems that the crew broke Section 27 Part 6 of the rules.

greenpilot

greenpilot wrote: »

Is it a story worth printing?

Depends whose plane it was.

faoiarvok

What airport?

greenpilot

Hi,

From a safety point of view, I dont think it matters whos plane it was?

Plus, I do not want to say which airport, but it was a very large, Business Jet:D

L1011

A local paper wouldn't give a toss about this these days realistically.

goingnowhere

Well if an airport is closed, typically it becomes uncontrolled

Separation and safety is the pilots responsibility

Kuva

L1011 wrote: »

A local paper wouldn't give a toss about this these days realistically.

Until something happens and as usual when looked into theirs heaps of previous incidents.

greenpilot

L1011 wrote: »

A local paper wouldn't give a toss about this these days realistically.

Actually, my paper is very Interested in printing the story. Because it's news. Local news. And the incident could have been disastrous if something had occurred while the aircraft was repositioning. No tugs, no fire crews. Etc.

faoiarvok

goingnowhere wrote: »

Well if an airport is closed, typically it becomes uncontrolled

Separation and safety is the pilots responsibility

This is where I was going with my question. Was it within the airport’s hours of operation as published/NOTAM’d?

faoiarvok

faoiarvok wrote: »

What airport?

Probably Knock seen as other airports are open and manned 24hrs

I can see the headlines now "Pilots safely move airplane while airport is closed, nothing happened".

greenpilot

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I can see the headlines now "Pilots safely move airplane while airport is closed, nothing happened".

Listening to the etc, the tower was not impressed.

greenpilot

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I can see the headlines now "Pilots safely move airplane while airport is closed, nothing happened".

Runway incursion maybe?
The plane was a 737 BBJ. Heading to Las Vegas.

greenpilot

The aircraft, N43PR, arrived to Knock from Dubai on the 7th and departed at around 8am on the 8th. If you listen to live etc from about 6.30am to 8.30am, you can hear the whole conversation. See what you make of it.

john boye

Is this what counts as journalism these days?

Kuva

john boye wrote: »

Is this what counts as journalism these days?

No, it's usually made up.

Dick much?

Irish Steve

An American crew would not have been surprised to get no response from ATC, as there are many USA airfields that don't have full time service.

Having said that, if they'd looked at the NOTAM's for Ireland, they would have seen that the operational hours are :-

AERODROME HOURS OF OPS/SERVICE
MON 0810-1840
TUE 0805-1840
WED 0810-1840
THU 0810-1840
FRI 0810-1840
SAT 0810-1650
SUN 0810-1840
FROM: 04 APR 2018 15:04 TO: 30 APR 2018 18:40.

On that basis, there was no one in the tower to respond to them that early. As for the legality of moving during non operational hours, that's something I wouldn't be up to date with, especially for a non Irish registered aircraft, which would be operating (in this case) under FAA rules. In as much as they were able, they did exactly what they would do in a Non ATC environment, and broadcast their intentions, while clearly listening out on the relevant channel/s.

I would be surprised if the IAA are going to get involved, even if ATC did report them.

L1011

Kuva wrote: »

No, it's usually made up.

Dick much?

Deal with the post not the poster in future if you disagree.

NH2013

Yeh, non event, sounds like they followed all of the correct protocols for operating at an uncontrolled airport. This is much more common in the states than here but not a safety issue at all. Tower probably found it absurd because they wouldn't be used to it, nothing more. There's no safety implications here that I can see.

See this link for more info:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-towered_airport

greenpilot

john boye wrote: »

Is this what counts as journalism these days?

A verified story indicating a possible lapse of safety procedures at an un- controlled aerodrome? Yes. You see, I actually follow up on stories and rumours. The IAA are taking it quite seriously now apparently and, John my mate, if you actually take the time to listen to the engagement you can see that a story is warranted.

greenpilot

NH2013 wrote: »

Yeh, non event, sounds like they followed all of the correct protocols for operating at an uncontrolled airport. This is much more common in the states than here but not a safety issue at all. Tower probably found it absurd because they wouldn't be used to it, nothing more. There's no safety implications here that I can see.

See this link for more info:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-towered_airport

The IAA seem to think he broke Section 27, subsection 6 of the Rules. Anyway, regardless of what anyone's opinion is, there is more to the story than Im prepared to say, ( regarding a pissed off pilot and an airstairs) so we will be going with a story. Just wondered if anyone had heard of the incident. Also the tower was clearly of the opinion that ruled were breached. I also fly a good bit and I'm aware of the Rules.
Thanks folks. Bye for now!

faoiarvok

If it’s outside the published hours for ATC, then the airport would be uncontrolled and I think the section of the Rules of the Air wouldn’t apply.

However, there could well be local rules, or other laws prohibiting the movement outside the relevant hours or if there’s no fire cover available, etc. Don’t know well enough to say for sure.

L1011

This is effectively a non-story, not something I can see any local paper bothering with and nothing that a reputable national paper would be concerned with. The Mail may be willing to take it as their usual hysterics about aviation though.

Stovepipe

This story wouldn't rate ink in the National Enquirer if it happened in the US, as it has been rightly pointed out that a huge amount of US airfields and airports are uncontrolled and pilots and mechs and ground operatives operate at their own risk, whereas here, the concept of "uncontrolled" is not the same. Just because it's "outside of normal hours" doesn't mean it's actually open for business. This has always been controversial in Ireland because it means that some regional airports closed at teatime in Summer, which meant that they lost those usable hours after 17.30. Yet, some airports continued to operate for non-commercial or emergency traffic after that time without ATC or fire cover, ie, by arrangement with local flying clubs and SAR, who were allowed to operate without ATC or fire cover, at their own risk. Also, some airports allowed after hours operation if the user was prepared to pay for it. In this case, the pilot appears to have operated as he would in the US but may not have realised that he has upset the local applecart by doing so.

IngazZagni

I have done some GA flying in the States and many airports only had ATC operating at certain times of the day. Outside of this I would just announce my intentions over the radio. "I am taxiing down taxiway Alpha. I am entering runway 27. I am taking off runway 27" etc. All perfectly normal. The rules in the USA for GA flying are far more advanced and practical than in Ireland. We still have strict rules that are often not user friendly.
Having said that, rules are rules and the crew should have been aware of local procedures and notams. However was safety compromised? Probably not.

greenpilot

greenpilot wrote: »

Runway incursion maybe?
The plane was a 737 BBJ. Heading to Las Vegas.

No, the airport is NOTAM'd closed !

greenpilot

greenpilot wrote: »

The IAA are taking it quite seriously now apparently.

Yes now that a journalist has brought it to their attention of their intention to write something about something happening at a closed airport they have indicated to the journalist they are taking it seriously.:rolleyes:

greenpilot

IngazZagni wrote: »

I have done some GA flying in the States and many airports only had ATC operating at certain times of the day. Outside of this I would just announce my intentions over the radio. "I am taxiing down taxiway Alpha. I am entering runway 27. I am taking off runway 27" etc. All perfectly normal. The rules in the USA for GA flying are far more advanced and practical than in Ireland. We still have strict rules that are often not user friendly.
Having said that, rules are rules and the crew should have been aware of local procedures and notams. However was safety compromised? Probably not.

Finally, the clear and logical evaluation I was looking for. On this basis, no, I'm not going to waste my time writing it up. Thank you.

greenpilot

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yes now that a journalist has brought it to their attention of their intention to write something about something happening at a closed airport they have indicated to the journalist they are taking it seriously.:rolleyes:

That's actually quite funny. Welcome to my world!

smurfjed

If the airport is NOTAM'ed closed, then were is the risk? Someone moved a piece of machine around the airport while at the same time announcing his intentions. As for Section 27, subsection 6 of the Rules, what on earth are you talking about? Where are these written and am I supposed to have read them prior to operating to any airport in Ireland?

We routinely operate to uncontrolled airports in uncontrolled airspace, I have no problems taxiing around an aircraft even if its closed, but i wouldnt takeoff / land without having a fire service available.

Sorry to say but you trying to create a story where one doesn't exist.

NH2013

Wait a minute, the aircraft didn't even take off or land, it just moved from one part of the airport to another before the airport opened for the day???

NH2013

NH2013 wrote: »

Wait a minute, the aircraft didn't even take off or land, it just moved from one part of the airport to another before the airport opened for the day???

I know, shocking isn’t it !!

ironclaw

I'm actually more curious who would fly from Dubai into Knock, then from Knock to Las Vegas. Wrong part of the country for any sort of horse interests, no?

Stovepipe

Those are long legs so it probably suited them to refuel there. There may have been a local connection that required a visit there rather than going into Shannon.

Bazzy

I'd be more worried how they got into a closed airport!!!

goingnowhere

Bazzy wrote: »

I'd be more worried how they got into a closed airport!!!

Knock has 24 hour security so if with the right documentation access is not a problem

mayotom

NH2013 wrote: »

Wait a minute, the aircraft didn't even take off or land, it just moved from one part of the airport to another before the airport opened for the day???

How dare they

Deleted User wrote: »

I can see the headlines now "Pilots safely move airplane while airport is closed, nothing happened".

Hilarious

L1011 wrote: »

A local paper wouldn't give a toss about this these days realistically.

But the Western people needs something more than the weekly movements of Dara Calleary so an aircraft moving a few hundred meters is real news.

roundymac

And when Dara Calleary has a movement there is some ammount of ****e being moved,:)