Documentation needed for sale of house

I have no idea about this stuff but a relative of mine is selling their house. Apparently in order to avoid having to pay a load of tax he needs documentation going back to 2009 showing he lived at the address e.g bills, bank statements etc.

Unfortunately since he hated the area (which is the reason for selling) he spent most of his time at the family home and used that address for his bills and other stuff.

He's been told he needs to forms of evidence and has managed to get one. He has nothing else however.

Has anyone else been in this, rather peculiar, position before and have any help please?

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Yes he has had it up for sale since then. He was spending most of his time at the family home and returning to the house in the evening. He'd sleep there, go to work the following morning and then go from work to the family home...and repeat!

Not his fault the economic crash happened and he couldn't shift the place. The amount of people making low ball bids was endless. He didn't want to get screwed so stuck to his guns.

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Cathmandooo

Sounds like this is for the NPPR?

If he was sleeping there the majority of the time then it would be classed as his principal residence.

A friend recently needed similar proof and Electric Ireland obliged with copy statements for each year with their name and address showing as proof of living there. He just rang them up and asked for it, they emailed it on. It depends on who the provider was but I'd say they're used to the request!

CIARAN_BOYLE

To claim ppr relief on your principal private residence it needs to be your principal private residence.

if you are not residing there you are technically not eligible to ppr relief and legally he would be considered to not be entitled to the relief.

if he was sleeping there but not using it as a postal a dress it's hard to prove.

Franz Von Peppercorn

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I have no idea about this stuff but a relative of mine is selling their house. Apparently in order to avoid having to pay a load of tax he needs documentation going back to 2009 showing he lived at the address e.g bills, bank statements etc.

Unfortunately since he hated the area (which is the reason for selling) he spent most of his time at the family home and used that address for his bills and other stuff.

He's been told he needs to forms of evidence and has managed to get one. He has nothing else however.

Has anyone else been in this, rather peculiar, position before and have any help please?

What address was used for bills? It’s unclear from
context - looks like the family home.

Rew

He's looking to get a NPPR exemption cert. He must have paid utility bills for the property regardless of living there so those are the things to chase.

April 73

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I have no idea about this stuff but a relative of mine is selling their house. Apparently in order to avoid having to pay a load of tax he needs documentation going back to 2009 showing he lived at the address e.g bills, bank statements etc.

Unfortunately since he hated the area (which is the reason for selling) he spent most of his time at the family home and used that address for his bills and other stuff.

He's been told he needs to forms of evidence and has managed to get one. He has nothing else however.

Has anyone else been in this, rather peculiar, position before and have any help please?

So he never rented the place out while he wasn’t living there for 9 years?

Sleeper12

April 73 wrote:

So he never rented the place out while he wasn’t living there for 9 years?

That's what revenue will want to know.

April 73

Sleeper12 wrote: »

That's what revenue will want to know.

There’s been a few of these types of threads recently. NPPR documentation requirements coming back to bite people!

the_syco

Deleted User wrote: »

Unfortunately since he hated the area (which is the reason for selling) he spent most of his time at the family home and used that address for his bills and other stuff.

Did he use the family home or the house he bought for the bills?

Don't know why some of the posts here are so aggressive. No he wasn't renting the place out. He thought about it but heard some horror stories and decided it wasn't worth it. Sorry it's hard for people to believe we're not dishonest.

I checked with him and of course he tried for utility bills. One came through but the other doesn't have records going back that far or something.

Listen I'm only asking a question. Don't know why some people are getting their knickers in a twist. If you have nothing positive to contribute then kindly fück off.

Marcusm

Deleted User wrote: »

Don't know why some of the posts here are so aggressive. No he wasn't renting the place out. He thought about it but heard some horror stories and decided it wasn't worth it. Sorry it's hard for people to believe we're not dishonest.

I checked with him and of course he tried for utility bills. One came through but the other doesn't have records going back that far or something.

Listen I'm only asking a question. Don't know why some people are getting their knickers in a twist. If you have nothing positive to contribute then kindly fück off.

If it wasn’t his main residence then irrespective of whether he’s rented it out he’s looking at about 8k for NPPR including fines. A sale won’t progress without a retention, exemption cert or proof of payment.

Sleeper12

I've read all the posts and I can't see a single one aggressive.

All anyone said is that he has to prove to revenue that he lived there. He doesn't need to convince me.

Businesses are required by law to keep records for a minimum of 7 years. The gas & electric companies will be able to go back at least that far.

Listen I don't even know what NPPR is...I thought it was some American radio station. Afraid to say more because of the banhammer. I came to this sub forum, for the first time, looking for help cos I thought it would be friendly. Ended up with an infraction and people questioning my integrity. Thought it would be helpful rather than me having to defend myself. Won't be back.

I've thanked the posts of the people who were civil.

the_syco

Deleted User wrote: »

Thought it would be helpful rather than me having to defend myself. Won't be back.

Meh. Telling people to fcuk off for asking questions to get a better understanfing of your issues was a tad bit rude.

If he has the bills going to the house, IMO he has nothing to lose by asking for monthly bills from his supplier. Offer to pay for them (you get more with honey than vinegar), and I'd say this should help prove that this was his primary residence.

I did answer questions. At the start of the thread I stated that he was going there in the evening, sleeping and going to work the next morning. Then he would go to the family home before repeating the process.

He was spending most of his time at the family home and returning to the house in the evening. He'd sleep there, go to work the following morning and then go from work to the family home...and repeat!

This was in answer to the second post which I also found a tab obnoxious but still answered.

Then a couple of posts later I get:

So he never rented the place out while he wasn’t living there for 9 years?

It's a pity they're not as good at reading as they are at reporting posts. You can't tell me that that post isn't implying I'm being economical with the truth. I found it aggravating to be persistently having to defend myself instead of getting somewhere.

Stheno

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I did answer questions. At the start of the thread I stated that he was going there in the evening, sleeping and going to work the next morning. Then he would go to the family home before repeating the process.



This was in answer to the second post which I also found a tab obnoxious but still answered.

Then a couple of posts later I get:



It's a pity they're not as good at reading as they are at reporting posts. You can't tell me that that post isn't implying I'm being economical with the truth. I found it aggravating to be persistently having to defend myself instead of getting somewhere.

Google non principle private residence tax and you'll know why they are looking for the evidence.

Fail to provide the evidence then about 9k will be due to the council

splinter65

OP he’ll have to rack his brains to think of how he will produce documentary evidence of this place being his main home.
He must have had waste collection?
Electricity?
All the nonsense with Irish Water?
Bank/credit union/building society statements?
Revenue tax credit statements?
Car/house/life insurance?

jlm29

We had to get this documentation recently (or at least my partner did). As far as I recall, he has to prove he lived there between 2009 and 2013. We had to get two documents from this timeframe, and our solicitor specifically looked for one from the start and one from the end. I remember this, because I initially got one from 2012 and 2013, and was sent off to get something from 09.
We got a letter from the person who is in charge of the electoral register. Is that an option?

ETA - we got the company that delivers the heating oil to print out a statement from 2009. It can literally be anything some way official that has a name and address and a date

stimpson

You can make a statutory declaration stating it was your principal residence. We did this because it was €40 and easier than wading through years of documentation. It’s on the second page of this form: http://www.dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/content/Documents/Application_Forms/Your_Council/Application%20for%20Certificate%20of%20Exemption%20or%20Discharge%20from%20NPPR%202017.pdf

I assume your council will have something similar.

stimpson

.

shaunr68

Presumably he will also have paid LPT on the property so there's another potential source of evidence.

December2012

Tv licence?

stimpson

shaunr68 wrote: »

Presumably he will also have paid LPT on the property so there's another potential source of evidence.

LPT is also due on a NPPR.

shaunr68

stimpson wrote: »

LPT is also due on a NPPR.

So are payments for electricity, water etc. If the OP's relative is looking for statements etc from official sources, in what way would a recepit for payment of LPT be any different to an electricity bill?

Graham

Deleted User wrote: »

It's a pity they're not as good at reading as they are at reporting posts. You can't tell me that that post isn't implying I'm being economical with the truth. I found it aggravating to be persistently having to defend myself instead of getting somewhere.

Mod Note

People are asking questions to clarify your friends situation. You have nothing to defend and as far as I can make out there have been no accusations of anything untoward.

The question about renting/correspondence/bills are relevant because they will likely play a part in the tax treatment of the proceeds of any sale.
The questions about NPPR could also be important as your friend could find himself with liabilities to settle before any sale can be completed.

If you're not happy to answer any questions, that's fine but it's likely to mean you will only get general responses.

December2012

shaunr68 wrote: »

So are payments for electricity, water etc. If the OP's relative is looking for statements etc from official sources, in what way would a recepit for payment of LPT be any different to an electricity bill?

I imagine LPT is paid by the owner but utilities are paid by the occupant

shaunr68

December2012 wrote: »

I imagine LPT is paid by the owner but utilities are paid by the occupant

Thanks for the clarification, only lived here for two years and always paid our own LPT and utility (singular, we live out in the sticks!)

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seamus

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Not that uncommon in families who can't cut the apron strings. Back home to Mammy for dinner every night, but into your own gaf for sleeping, nobody disturbing you or giving you a dirty look for being hungover the next day.

Very strange that he'd redirect his mail to the family home though, that doesn't make much sense.

I wonder would an affidavit suffice if all hope is lost? Worth engaging a tax advisor on this issue OP.

I'd have difficulty proving where I was living in 2009, I throw out everyone that's more than five years old. So this can't be a rare occurrence.

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jlm29

seamus wrote: »

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Obnoxious?

More incredulous that someone would be paying for a property while living somewhere else.

If he has that kind of money to waste, 8k or 9k to cover his liabilities now will be nothing to him.

Not that uncommon in families who can't cut the apron strings. Back home to Mammy for dinner every night, but into your own gaf for sleeping, nobody disturbing you or giving you a dirty look for being hungover the next day.

Very strange that he'd redirect his mail to the family home though, that doesn't make much sense.

I wonder would an affidavit suffice if all hope is lost? Worth engaging a tax advisor on this issue OP.

I'd have difficulty proving where I was living in 2009, I throw out everyone that's more than five years old. So this can't be a rare occurrence.

I’d have difficulty finding a piece of paper in my house. But I could go to the bank and get a letter from the manager saying “jlm29 has been a customer here since 2009 and all correspondence has been sent to her at that address”. Or a statement from the waste company, or the people who deliver coal. Most people would find a way around it!

Sleeper12

jlm29 wrote: »

I’d have difficulty finding a piece of paper in my house. But I could go to the bank and get a letter from the manager saying “jlm29 has been a customer here since 2009 and all correspondence has been sent to her at that address”. Or a statement from the waste company, or the people who deliver coal. Most people would find a way around it!

And car insurance. You have to state at what address the car will be parked. There's lots of ways to prove where he has been living

seamus

jlm29 wrote: »

I’d have difficulty finding a piece of paper in my house. But I could go to the bank and get a letter from the manager saying “jlm29 has been a customer here since 2009 and all correspondence has been sent to her at that address”. Or a statement from the waste company, or the people who deliver coal. Most people would find a way around it!

There isn't a single service provider that I'm using now that I was also using in 2009. Phones, electricity, bank, fuel, car insurance, I've changed them all at least once in the last decade.

Ignoring the fact that I've also moved house in that time, I wonder what the options are for someone like me. Maybe Revenue would have to accept an affidavit - perhaps one from a neighbour who can attest to it?

jlm29

seamus wrote: »

jlm29 wrote: »

I’d have difficulty finding a piece of paper in my house. But I could go to the bank and get a letter from the manager saying “jlm29 has been a customer here since 2009 and all correspondence has been sent to her at that address”. Or a statement from the waste company, or the people who deliver coal. Most people would find a way around it!

There isn't a single service provider that I'm using now that I was also using in 2009. Phones, electricity, bank, fuel, car insurance, I've changed them all at least once in the last decade.

Ignoring the fact that I've also moved house in that time, I wonder what the options are for someone like me. Maybe Revenue would have to accept an affidavit - perhaps one from a neighbour who can attest to it?

Well if you’ve moved house it’s irrelevant. That’s the point I suppose. Even if you’ve changed service providers in that time, you may have had the services back then? So you go to your old waste company, your old fuel company etc. A person in your old bank may also oblige. The electoral register has always been there. Your gp? PHN if you have children.

Claw Hammer

Utility bills always state the address to which the service was supplied even if the bill itself goes to another address.

Sleeper12

Claw Hammer wrote:

Utility bills always state the address to which the service was supplied even if the bill itself goes to another address.

If it states a different address to where he claims to live revenue won't believe him

Posy

Can he ask the bank for duplicate bank statements to be resent?
There is a charge, but they go back about ten years or more.

Claw Hammer

Sleeper12 wrote: »

If it states a different address to where he claims to live revenue won't believe him

It will at least show that the account at the address in question was in his name. If the bills went to his parents' house he can explain that away. He has to get the benefit of the doubt.

Sleeper12

Claw Hammer wrote:

It will at least show that the account at the address in question was in his name. If the bills went to his parents' house he can explain that away. He has to get the benefit of the doubt.

That's the problem. Revenue will assume that he lived in the parents house if the bills went there. Having the bills in his name won't be enough. He has to prove that he was living there.

Plenty of people live in their parents house and rent out their own house thinking keeping the bills in their name is enough to convince revenue that they weren't renting the place out. I think this is why op posted in the first place

neonman

I recently sold a house and had to go through this process. Could find bills going back as far as 2010 but not 2009, in the end, I just got a solicitor to sign a sworn affidavit stating that I lived at the address during those years. Should have just done that from the start as it would have saved me a lot of time looking for old bills.

Claw Hammer

Sleeper12 wrote: »

That's the problem. Revenue will assume that he lived in the parents house if the bills went there. Having the bills in his name won't be enough. He has to prove that he was living there.

Plenty of people live in their parents house and rent out their own house thinking keeping the bills in their name is enough to convince revenue that they weren't renting the place out. I think this is why op posted in the first place

The NPPR is a matter for the local authority not the Revenue. The Revenue won't be involved. It may be that he was working on the house for a while after he bought it and it was more convenient to send the bills to his parents house and because he visited his parents fairly often he just forget about changing he address on the bills. It could equally be that he was bad at paying bills on time and that a family member paid them on his behalf so he wouldn't end up with utilities cut off. The Revenue nor the Council can't simply infer non-residence. The Revenue could do an audit to see if there was any unaccounted monies or expenditure appearing if they suspected a concealed rental.
It might be different if the o/p owned other properties where he might have resided.

Sleeper12

Claw Hammer wrote:

The NPPR is a matter for the local authority not the Revenue. The Revenue won't be involved. It may be that he was working on the house for a while after he bought it and it was more convenient to send the bills to his parents house and because he visited his parents fairly often he just forget about changing he address on the bills. It could equally be that he was bad at paying bills on time and that a family member paid them on his behalf so he wouldn't end up with utilities cut off. The Revenue nor the Council can't simply infer non-residence. The Revenue could do an audit to see if there was any unaccounted monies or expenditure appearing if they suspected a concealed rental. It might be different if the o/p owned other properties where he might have resided.

Won't there be capital gains tax if the property has increased in value & its not his primary residence?

Ghekko

Not sure what county council your friend is dealing with. In order to get NPPR exemption when my dad was selling his house, we needed the property folio details, meter readings from electricity supplier for the years in question and a brief letter from a local resident to confirm that my dad had been resident at the address.

Electric Ireland were very helpful - however if your friends property was vacant and meter is inside and therefore meter could not be read, this may prove difficult. If the meter is on the outside of the property the meter would have been read and therefore the electricity supplier should provide the statement without any difficulty.