Driving unaccompanied and consequences

annemarieR

My daughter needs to drive for work experience. There is a wait of at least four to six weeks before she can do her test. She is a competent driver, 21. She and others have informed me that it is very common for learner drivers to drive unaccompanied,especially to and from college etc. It would seem to be the only way to get practice. She has had 15 lessons to date. I have read that there is a fine of €1000 if caught and two penalty points. I am not sure whether or not her insurance would cover her if she had an accident. I was informed that if the car is taxed and insured it’s at the discretion of the Garda and most do not like prosecuting young drivers and turn a blind eye. Just wondering if anyone had any experience if this? Public transport is not an option.

Henry Ford III

This not a good idea.

There will be nasty consequences if she gets caught. She isn't licensed to drive solo. You may consider her a competant driver, but the state doesn't yet.

Insurance will cover potential 3rd party claims.

fineso.mom

Has she booked her test? My son was lucky to get a slot two weeks away. He spent an hour one day refreshing the page and a slot came up that hadn't been free earlier. A cancellation I guess.
I wouldn't drive on a learner permit...15 lessons is nothing.

ozbackineire

Also another who doesn't advise it.

A friend was caught driving unaccompanied while she was still on my L plates and was fined and got penalty points. She did get a grumpy guard though who seemed hell bent on fining her but it is a pretty hefty fine and having penalty points is no fun either.

Is there a bus route she can use?

Henry Ford III

ozbackineire wrote: »

Also another who doesn't advise it.

A friend was caught driving unaccompanied while she was still on my L plates and was fined and got penalty points. She did get a grumpy guard though who seemed hell bent on fining her but it is a pretty hefty fine and having penalty points is no fun either.

Is there a bus route she can use?

There'll be insurance issues on that too probably.

EIREDriver

Gardai seem to be clamping down on this in the last few years. I rarely chanced it when I was a learner but a lot of the lads I know did and if stopped, the guards would let them on when they told them they were going to/coming from work.

https://www.thesun.ie/news/2182079/irish-car-owners-who-allow-learner-drivers-to-use-vehicle-unaccompanied-could-face-jail-sentence-after-new-bill-approved-by-government/

Not sure if this has come in yet. Something to bare in mind if you own the car.

Also, penalty points will really cost your daughter when trying to get insurance quotes in the future. Only takes one guard in a bad humour.

BarryD2

annemarieR wrote: »

It would seem to be the only way to get practice. She has had 15 lessons to date.

This important point is lost to the RSA. People who ignore the law and drive unaccompanied get experience & confidence which in turn helps them pass the test.

Those who abide by the law are more likely I think, to fail the test and clog up the system, whilst they do retests.

I and I'm sure many other drivers on the road were able to drive unaccompanied as learners when we were starting out and I can see no reason why current learners (once they've done their mandatory lessons and have the nod from their instructor) should not do likewise. That's how you learn to drive safely and competently.

EIREDriver

Also, some people take down the L plates so that if they're stopped at a checkpoint, guards are less likely to ask for a license and just check what's in the window.

Non display of the plates is a penalty points offense too so it is a risk.

Alanstrainor

BarryD2 wrote: »

This important point is lost to the RSA. People who ignore the law and drive unaccompanied get experience & confidence which in turn helps them pass the test.

Those who abide by the law are more likely I think, to fail the test and clog up the system, whilst they do retests.

I and I'm sure many other drivers on the road were able to drive unaccompanied as learners when we were starting out and I can see no reason why current learners (once they've done their mandatory lessons and have the nod from their instructor) should not do likewise. That's how you learn to drive safely and competently.

I hear this logic all the time. Why not have instructors give the nod and allow learners to drive unaccompanied. It's a really weird one to me, because surely the nod should be that the learner should apply for their test as they have reached test standard?

OP, your daughter does not have a full license and cannot legally drive on her own. If caught she risks fines and points, which would likely have further implications with insurance. 15 lessons is 15 hours of driving. That is barely anything, driving is a skill and I know of few skills that can be learned well enough in that time. She will have to apply for a cancellation test, and perhaps make other work arrangements as she hasn't left herself with much options.

dudara

BarryD2 wrote: »

I and I'm sure many other drivers on the road were able to drive unaccompanied as learners when we were starting out and I can see no reason why current learners (once they've done their mandatory lessons and have the nod from their instructor) should not do likewise.

Yes we did, and you know what, in hindsight it was stupid. I was young and reckless and took way too many chances that I wasn't experienced enough to handle. I think it's a good thing that unaccompanied driving is no longer permitted. The past isn't always better. Everytime I hear about a young driver who crashes into a wall early in the morning, I think of all the idiotic manoeuvers I pulled when driving as a young person on L plates, high on the power and independence that a car gave me.

I'm sympathetic to young drivers who are still on L-plates and need to drive, but the rules are in place for good reasons.

That's how you learn to drive safely and competently.

You learn to drive safely and competently by studying the rules of the road and then putting it into practice under the guidance of a teacher and other experienced drivers.

Once you've passed your test of competence, then you can drive unaccompanied and continue to build up your skills & experience. Remember, the driving test doesn't mean you're a perfect driver, it simply means that you have met a minimum standard of competence to drive unaccompanied.

Dravokivich

annemarieR wrote: »

My daughter needs to drive for work experience. There is a wait of at least four to six weeks before she can do her test. She is a competent driver, 21. She and others have informed me that it is very common for learner drivers to drive unaccompanied,especially to and from college etc. It would seem to be the only way to get practice. She has had 15 lessons to date. I have read that there is a fine of €1000 if caught and two penalty points. I am not sure whether or not her insurance would cover her if she had an accident. I was informed that if the car is taxed and insured it’s at the discretion of the Garda and most do not like prosecuting young drivers and turn a blind eye. Just wondering if anyone had any experience if this? Public transport is not an option.

You wouldn't tell your daughter to flip on coin on whether or not she should be doing anything illegal. Don't let the regularity of others lack of complying to the legal requirements for a Learners Permit, be a reason to support your daughter in driving unaccompanied while holding one.

She'll need to find another means to get to that work placement.

We've all had harsh commutes before getting a licence. I used to do 2 hrs on 2 buses to do what would be a 15 minute drive. I still didn't do it myself without a licence.

annemarieR

Thanks for your reply. It involves cycling, train and cycling again. A bit of a pantomime. I would suggest no L plates but N plates if she were to risk it?

annemarieR

I know. It’s a real catch 22 situation.

annemarieR

Thanks for replying. She has hours of driving behind her with myself and her dad as well as 15 lessons. It’s not just 15 lessons. We never would have thought there would be such a backlog with tests. She applied in January and started work experience yesterday. I think this encourages youngsters to break the law in all fairness.

Scraggs

annemarieR wrote: »

Thanks for your reply. It involves cycling, train and cycling again. A bit of a pantomime. I would suggest no L plates but N plates if she were to risk it?

Whatever about not displaying L plates (still illegal) but definitely do not encourage her to put up N plates if she has not sat and passed her test.

D3V!L

annemarieR wrote: »

I would suggest no L plates but N plates if she were to risk it?

She would get a fine for not displaying her L plate, for driving unaccompanied and a fine to top it off. Also as mentioned she would only have third party insurance. So the "risk" as you put it is not worth it.

FranklinMint

D3V!L wrote: »

She would get a fine for not displaying her L plate, for driving unaccompanied and a fine to top it off. Also as mentioned she would only have third party insurance. So the "risk" as you put it is not worth it.

You'd get your policy cancelled too if they get wind of it

annemarieR

True but really what are the chances? I’ve been stopped a handful of times in my lifetime and they check the tax and insurance. That’s it. Extremely rare.

Hitman3000

annemarieR wrote:

True but really what are the chances? I’ve been stopped a handful of times in my lifetime and they check the tax and insurance. That’s it. Extremely rare.

You have to be lucky 100% of the time. The Guard only has to get lucky once.

shaunr68

annemarieR wrote: »

True but really what are the chances? I’ve been stopped a handful of times in my lifetime and they check the tax and insurance. That’s it. Extremely rare.

The chances of a new and inexperienced driver who isn't even licenced to drivve being involved in a minor collision are relatively high. She will then have the book thrown at her in terms of fine, points and massive insurance hikes. Please don't allow her to drive unaccompanied. Especially nowhere near where I live. There are enough clueless muppets on the road already

Scraggs

If your daughter hasn't done so already ring up and ask to be put on the cancellation list and see about going on the short notice test list also.

RayCun

annemarieR wrote: »

I know. It’s a real catch 22 situation.

It's not really. The law is clear, you just find it inconvenient.

Look for an early slot, and until then only drive accompanied.

CardinalJ

I don't want to preach at you but Ive handled large loss motor claims for an insurer so this is my advice/observations.

The chances of a provisional licenced driver being involved in an accident are higher when unaccompanied than if they've someone with them. On the more serious end of the scale, unaccompanied learner drivers represent a far greater percentage of drivers when it comes to accidents involving a fatality or life changing injuries, than they represent users on the road.

Then in a more likely scenario, even if its only a tip and it leads to a claim against your policy, your insurer has full right to come after you for whatever they have to pay out. Insurers do go down this road. You'll also likely have your policy cancelled and then have to pay a huge premium to reflect the fact you are higher risk.

Even when it comes to a 50/50 accident where your daughter may not be at fault, your insurer will almost certainly take the other fully licenced drivers word against your daughters. Why wouldnt they, she would not be a great witness in court seeing as she isnt even qualified to drive alone. Essentially, if anything goes wrong at all you're screwed, as is your daughter.

All of this is seperate to a random garda checkpoint catching her, or she drives in a bus lane 10 meters too early and a Garda decides to stop her etc.

You have suggested it being a catch 22, but the two sides of the coin are on different levels. One side is at worst inconvenient, the other side is anything up to potentially catastrophic.

beechwood55

Learner driver added to my policy last week.
Letter from insurer today listing the conditions.
If conditions are not fully complied with at all times she will be considered to be driving without insurance.
This is with Aviva.

Auguste Comte

annemarieR wrote: »

She is a competent driver, 21.

Then she should have a certificate of competence, otherwise she is a learner who needs a qualified driver with her.

PixelTrawler

OP, us drivers who have qualified would rather not share the road with unqualified novice illegal drivers. Driving is highly dynamic, anything could happen and she has no experience to draw on. She could very easily panic in a variety of situations shes never experienced. Do us all a favour and keep her off the road unaccompanied. Shes a danger to herself and others.

If shes good enough to pass the test, seek a cancellation.

Alun

If she's 21, she's had 4-5 years to learn to drive legally and pass what is a relatively simple test. If she "needs" to drive for whatever reason, she should have thought of that earlier. Driving test waiting times are hardly a state secret ...

http://www.rsa.ie/RSA/Learner-Drivers/The-Driving-Test/Test-Waiting-Times/

Auguste Comte

BarryD2 wrote: »

Those who abide by the law are more likely I think, to fail the test and clog up the system, whilst they do retests.

That there is the biggest crock of sh1t I have seen posted on here in a long time and that's saying something.

HonalD

annemarieR wrote:

Thanks for your reply. It involves cycling, train and cycling again. A bit of a pantomime. I would suggest no L plates but N plates if she were to risk it?

Apart from breaking the law, the probability of her being involved in a collision is higher, irrespective of your opinion of her competency. Forget about her/your needs, and consider other road users please.

beechwood55

annemarieR wrote: »

I would suggest no L plates but N plates if she were to risk it?

I cannot believe you are actually seriously considering suggesting this to your daughter.

Dravokivich

annemarieR wrote: »

Thanks for your reply. It involves cycling, train and cycling again. A bit of a pantomime. I would suggest no L plates but N plates if she were to risk it?

It makes no odds what she does. If she's caught it's going to be more problematic for her than trying to find an alternative. Assume she's caught on the first day and then what happens? You're her parent we shouldn't be telling you how to be one at this stage in the game.

alroley

The law is there for a reason.

AndrewJRenko

annemarieR wrote: »

Thanks for your reply. It involves cycling, train and cycling again. A bit of a pantomime.

Sounds like a fairly standard commute for many people.

The more she drives unaccompanied, the more likely she is to pick up bad habits that will result in failing the test.

Mr.H

My ahem friend shares a car with his other half. For the last 3 years they had an L plate because he was on a learners permit. Neither of them were stopped in those three years. In fact they both drove solo through many checkpoints without being even asked the question.

Rumblings have come and gone over the last year or so about clamping down. Luckily they have their full now but he was waiting for 6 months for a test. I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable chancing it now as it sounds like its gonna get very enforced any day now. You could chance it and get away with it but she could also get caught and suffer heavily for it. My friend did it and got away with it. But I (I mean my friend) would very much regret it if they where caught.

caldew

What happens if she kills someone?

How would you live with yourself for letting her drive.

You have a responsibility to society as a parent.

beechwood55

OP - Have you heard of Geraldine and Louise Ann Clancy? They died in an accident caused by a unaccompanied 21 year old driver on a learner permit. Less than 1km from their home. The woman who killed them was a neighbour. She got a 3 year suspended sentence.

sondagefaux

annemarieR wrote: »

My daughter needs to drive for work experience. There is a wait of at least four to six weeks before she can do her test. She is a competent driver, 21. She and others have informed me that it is very common for learner drivers to drive unaccompanied,especially to and from college etc. It would seem to be the only way to get practice. She has had 15 lessons to date. I have read that there is a fine of €1000 if caught and two penalty points. I am not sure whether or not her insurance would cover her if she had an accident. I was informed that if the car is taxed and insured it’s at the discretion of the Garda and most do not like prosecuting young drivers and turn a blind eye. Just wondering if anyone had any experience if this? Public transport is not an option.

If she's stopped, gets prosecuted and is fined and given penalty points, how much do you think her insurance is going to be for the next few years? It's expensive enough as it is for newly qualified drivers. For the sake of a few weeks, she should either get a lift with someone else who works there (or from yourself if you can spare the time). If there's no public transport, and she can't get a lift with someone, then give up the work experience placement and get another one closer to home or after she passes her test. 
Apart from all that, there's the risk to her own life and the lives of other people to consider.
A young girl near where I live passed her test in September 2017. She was killed in a head-on crash in February, less than 6 months after passing her test. I was one of a few people who came upon the scene just after the crash. I walked up to her car and could tell instantly that she was dead. She was only 18. Driving is a potentially lethal activity. Don't let your daughter drive on her own.

sondagefaux

annemarieR wrote: »

True but really what are the chances? I’ve been stopped a handful of times in my lifetime and they check the tax and insurance. That’s it. Extremely rare.

If you want to take a chance with your daughter's life, fair enough. But taking a chance with other people's lives isn't on. I'm going to email this thread to the guards.

OttoPilot

Hitman3000 wrote: »

You have to be lucky 100% of the time. The Guard only has to get lucky once.

I've had guards wave me through checkpoints with L plates up, same with friends. They really don't care unless you give them a reason to (careless driving).

OttoPilot

sondagefaux wrote: »

If you want to take a chance with your daughter's life, fair enough. But taking a chance with other people's lives isn't on. I'm going to email this thread to the guards.

Isn't everyone on the road taking a chance with other people's lives?

endacl

annemarieR wrote: »

Thanks for your reply. It involves cycling, train and cycling again. A bit of a pantomime. I would suggest no L plates but N plates if she were to risk it?

I'd suggest [(bike-train-bike)*repeat as necessary]test-car.

She wouldn't need any plates at all to get to her work experience then. Bit of a pain in the arse commute in the meantime won't do her a bit of harm. Character building etc.

DellyBelly

If I was there in her situation I'd risk it. If she is as compotent as you say and has only a few weeks to wait for her test then the chances of getting caught are very slim. The waiting list for driving tests is ridiculously long

babybuilder

Following this thread with interest. Can any person holding a full licence be the accompanying / supervising driver with an learner driver or does it have to be the person named as the policy holder?

OttoPilot

babybuilder wrote: »

Following this thread with interest. Can any person holding a full licence be the accompanying / supervising driver with an learner driver or does it have to be the person named as the policy holder?

Anyone. Sure what would you do if you have your own policy? Not everyone is fortunate enough to have a parent/partners policy to go on.

twowheelsonly

annemarieR wrote: »

Thanks for replying. She has hours of driving behind her with myself and her dad as well as 15 lessons. It’s not just 15 lessons. We never would have thought there would be such a backlog with tests. She applied in January and started work experience yesterday. I think this encourages youngsters to break the law in all fairness.

The acid test is what if someone else runs into your daughter, kills, maims or badly injures her and you later discover that they have only had 14 lessons and was driving unaccompanied. Do you accept that as being ok ?

I can see where you're coming from, and I come from the 'take your chances' school of motoring myself (30+ years ago..) but I can see now how stupid we all were and how much better the system is now.

annemarieR wrote: »

True but really what are the chances? I’ve been stopped a handful of times in my lifetime and they check the tax and insurance. That’s it. Extremely rare.

If you're stopped at a checkpoint and all your documents are in order it's a lot less stressful than if they're not and cops pick up on your language and your body language.

BTW, just like drink driving, getting stopped or getting caught is the least of your problems. Potentially hitting someone is where the sh it will really hit the fan.

OttoPilot

sondagefaux wrote: »

Less experienced drivers, and people who haven't passed a driving test, are more likely to be involved in crashes. 
PS: I saw a young girl dead a few weeks back, so take your smartarse attitude and shove it.

Reported

beechwood55

babybuilder wrote: »

Following this thread with interest. Can any person holding a full licence be the accompanying / supervising driver with an learner driver or does it have to be the person named as the policy holder?

We have an Aviva policy. It stipulates that our learner driver is only covered to drive with any named driver on that policy - so that would be her parents and older sibling.

doolox

...that seizes the car and imposes a €2,000 fine on the owners of the car if a person is allowed to drive unaccompanied, having only a learners permit?

This should be enough deterrent to anyone allowing their kids to drive without a full licence.

The insurance restriction should also be a huge deterrent, want to lose your house in the event of a big liability?

Zaph

annemarieR wrote: »

Thanks for your reply. It involves cycling, train and cycling again. A bit of a pantomime. I would suggest no L plates but N plates if she were to risk it?

annemarieR wrote: »

True but really what are the chances? I’ve been stopped a handful of times in my lifetime and they check the tax and insurance. That’s it. Extremely rare.

I don't mean to be rude here, but tbh it appears to me that you've almost decided on a course of action and are looking for people here to validate it. However the overwhelming opinion is that it's not a good idea, so that's the advice you should be listening to. Plenty of people have sh*tty commutes but they just get on with it because they have no alternative. I'm afraid until she passes her test your daughter falls into this category.

babybuilder

beechwood55 wrote: »

We have an Aviva policy. It stipulates that our learner driver is only covered to drive with any named driver on that policy - so that would be her parents and older sibling.

Thanks. I tried checking with allianz as I've just got my 18 yr old son as a provisional driver on my policy. They said he's insured as long as there is any another full licence holder on with him. Struggling to get my head around this. I'd imagined it would have to be me or my wife who's a named driver.

shaunr68

DellyBelly wrote: »

If I was there in her situation I'd risk it. If she is as compotent as you say and...

The OP is not qualified to make a judgement as to whether the driver is competent.