Cavity wall insulation

molbloc

Any opinions by blocklayer s on xtratherm full fill cavity wall insulation?

Dermobrickie

molbloc wrote: »

Any opinions by blocklayer s on xtratherm full fill cavity wall insulation?

Pain in the arse to fit properly.

molbloc

Not suitable for west of Ireland climate. Very hard to get paid for extra effort by blocklayer. Xtratherm have thrust this product on blocklayer s . I rang xtratherm and they denied there was any extra work compared to regular cavity wall insulation.

caddy16

molbloc wrote: »

Not suitable for west of Ireland climate. Very hard to get paid for extra effort by blocklayer. Xtratherm have thrust this product on blocklayer s . I rang xtratherm and they denied there was any extra work compared to regular cavity wall insulation.

Looking at this myself, there isn't a huge difference in performance with this and the xtratherm partial fill 110mm so leaning towards that.

Gumbo

molbloc wrote: »

Any opinions by blocklayer s on xtratherm full fill cavity wall insulation?

molbloc wrote: »

Not suitable for west of Ireland climate. Very hard to get paid for extra effort by blocklayer. Xtratherm have thrust this product on blocklayer s . I rang xtratherm and they denied there was any extra work compared to regular cavity wall insulation.

Did you just answer your own question?

Monkey Wizard

Advice,

I used 100mm K8 Kooltherm in a 150mm cavity. I also had 110mm but 100mm was much easier to work with.

Build your inner leaf first, up a good few courses, then add your insulation. This way mortar doesn't build up on your boards and you
have good visibility and can close gaps, tape joints etc. See Thermal Looping.

Keep it covered, I didn't, damaged insulation.

Consider, not having small rigid boards, many houses are using the 8x4 sheet and banging them onto the inner leaf so less joints, fewer gaps
and isn't held with flimsy wall tie clips.

Since I like to learn the hard way, I also used Kingspans Cavity Closers, there is too much work adding these in correctly, wouldn't recommend.

Hope this is a help.

kieran.

It's a relatively simple product to fit properly if you have a good tradesman... simple basic things like keeping the ties clean, striking of the mortar joints internally, etc.. . All of which 'SHOULD' be done no matter what the insulation used is.

molbloc

My issue is not with how it SHOULD be done but with how long it takes to do it. For example the amount of cutting and waste around lintol s and gables

Dermobrickie

kieran. wrote: »

It's a relatively simple product to fit properly if you have a good tradesman... simple basic things like keeping the ties clean, striking of the mortar joints internally, etc.. . All of which 'SHOULD' be done no matter what the insulation used is.

I highly doubt u have ever installed it, I have never seen a man striking up joints on the internal of a block in this country nobody would pay for it.
There is a good bit of waste up gables. And the corner sheets are a pain to put in.any man I no will charge extra for full fill because of how slow it is.

kieran.

Dermobrickie wrote: »

I highly doubt u have ever installed it, I have never seen a man striking up joints on the internal of a block in this country nobody would pay for it.
There is a good bit of waste up gables. And the corner sheets are a pain to put in.any man I no will charge extra for full fill because of how slow it is.

If you are not striking the internal joints on cavities where you are fitting partial fill you would be having issues with thermal looping. As you say I have never installed it but I specify and inspected its placement if regularly. I understand it takes extra time and that you need to charge extra for this. Prices I see are typically 5% extra for Xthratherm in cavitys versus any other product.

ht9zni1gs28crp

I've seen plenty of blocklayers strike and clean the internal joints, no excuse for not doing it now especially with the larger cavities now being the norm. It a standard action of blocklaying with no 'extra' payment required for doing it!

sydthebeat

every new house that ive designed with an oil heating system for the last 5 years has been specified with 150 full fill board insulation.

I have no problem making the block layers life harder in order to do their job properly.
The standard of installation of partial fill insulation during the boom times was deplorable, and the full fill installation process is there to reduce as much of these bad practises as possible.

caddy16

sydthebeat wrote: »

every new house that ive designed with an oil heating system for the last 5 years has been specified with 150 full fill board insulation.

I have no problem making the block layers life harder in order to do their job properly.
The standard of installation of partial fill insulation during the boom times was deplorable, and the full fill installation process is there to reduce as much of these bad practises as possible.

Hi sydthebeat,
In your experience does the benefit of full fill out way the benefit of having a 110 mm partial fill & 40mm cavity? U values are .15 v .13

sydthebeat

caddy16 wrote: »

Hi sydthebeat,
In your experience does the benefit of full fill out way the benefit of having a 110 mm partial fill & 40mm cavity? U values are .15 v .13

more like 0.16 v 0.14 in truth

the question would have to be, how are you making up for that 0.02 difference in the rest of your specification?

caddy16

sydthebeat wrote: »

more like 0.16 v 0.14 in truth

the question would have to be, how are you making up for that 0.02 difference in the rest of your specification?

Well I suppose I cant make up for it in the walls but I was going to use the difference in price to get a company in to complete the airtightness work on opening, ceilings etc. Just trying to balance the budget.

sydthebeat

caddy16 wrote: »

Well I suppose I cant make up for it in the walls but I was going to use the difference in price to get a company in to complete the airtightness work on opening, ceilings etc. Just trying to balance the budget.

you need an air tightness target regardless.
again, my standard spec here is all opes taped, all external protrusions filled, and membrane across ceiling of upper floor as a minimum. air tightness really comes down to workmanship and attention to detail.

Dermobrickie

kieran. wrote: »

If you are not striking the internal joints on cavities where you are fitting partial fill you would be having issues with thermal looping. As you say I have never installed it but I specify and inspected its placement if regularly. I understand it takes extra time and that you need to charge extra for this. Prices I see are typically 5% extra for Xthratherm in cavitys versus any other product.

I think we have a different meaning of striking up, u mean just fill holes and scrap with trowel or rub with joining bar?
5% would be tight most bricklayers I no would be closer to 20%.

Dermobrickie

Thatcher Green Hairdressing wrote: »

I've seen plenty of blocklayers strike and clean the internal joints, no excuse for not doing it now especially with the larger cavities now being the norm. It a standard action of blocklaying with no 'extra' payment required for doing it!

Think we have a different meaning for striking up, striking up generally means rubbing with pointing bar, I have done it in England but never here.

molbloc

The idea of making a blocklayer s life harder is disgraceful. We have to deal with engineers and architects who can't even draw a dpc and insulation detail correctly never mind install it correctly.

Wartburg

molbloc wrote: »

The idea of making a blocklayer s life harder is disgraceful. We have to deal with engineers and architects who can't even draw a dpc and insulation detail correctly never mind install it correctly.

And the conclusion is, to leave everything as it is and carry on with "traditional practice"? Not a future-proof strategy, especially with the NZEB close to the door step.
Imho all trades at the site are facing challenges when it comes to common insulation and air tightness standards. And they all should take more attention to the existing regulations and installation details, no matter if the architect or engineer pointed out correct details.

ht9zni1gs28crp

molbloc wrote: »

The idea of making a blocklayer s life harder is disgraceful. We have to deal with engineers and architects who can't even draw a dpc and insulation detail correctly never mind install it correctly.

As opposed to a blocklayer making an engineers life harder as they wont listen or follow the correct detail, the usual sentence muttered 'always done it that way' as they stamp out of a site office.

ht9zni1gs28crp

Dermobrickie wrote: »

Think we have a different meaning for striking up, striking up generally means rubbing with pointing bar, I have done it in England but never here.

Nope, dont mean pointing. Mean leaving the mortar joint clean, straight and no snots. If clean and straight, no need for internal pointing whatseover!

The request for internal pointing on site is just that. To ensure the cavity is kept clean. In reality the blockie knows a clean stuck block internally will make his life easier fitting insulation.

molbloc

What future do our young people have if the cost of construction keeps rising due to these new innovations. A blocklayer should always follow a detail provided the detail is CORRECT. Pointing , clean wall tiles etc should be a no brainer .

sydthebeat

molbloc wrote: »

What future do our young people have if the cost of construction keeps rising due to these new innovations. A blocklayer should always follow a detail provided the detail is CORRECT. Pointing , clean wall tiles etc should be a no brainer .

Well we can pin point the future young people had back in early 2000's when they were faced with rising house prices. Draughty, poorly insulated and crap built "units" which they badly over paid for and still are.

If the quality of workmanship was good enough man then, there would have been no need to innovate processes and materials which reduces the risk of bad workmanship.

But no, we learned from then, and we now have better materials with prescribed means of installation to ensure the end result.
If it means the block layer has to be more careful and slower in their work, so be it.
He should price accordingly.

James 007

molbloc wrote: »

The idea of making a blocklayer s life harder is disgraceful. We have to deal with engineers and architects who can't even draw a dpc and insulation detail correctly never mind install it correctly.

Have things changed since my days in construction, since when did engineers get involved in dpc & insulation details, is this not still a architects, if so I have been out of the game too long.

molbloc

Why did the engineers/architects sign off on these draughty ,poorly built units? Were they doing their job correctly?

Dermobrickie

molbloc wrote: »

Why did the engineers/architects sign off on these draughty ,poorly built units? Were they doing their job correctly?

Yea they turned a blind eye to it then and now they think they can do no wrong.
I have seen dpc details of dpc under and over thermal block in a footing and thermal to be painted in water resistant paint, have u ever seen such bull.
And people on this form thinking you can price for stuff like this haven't a clue what it's like to be on site. We price to leave work at a high standard but u don't get them every one loves a cheep price.

sydthebeat

molbloc wrote: »

Why did the engineers/architects sign off on these draughty ,poorly built units? Were they doing their job correctly?

Cos solicitors were happy to accept a piece of paper which basically said "I didn't see the build at all, but it looks OK from the outside"

A ludicrous situation, but hey, that's all developers would pay for.

Dermobrickie

Thatcher Green Hairdressing wrote: »

Nope, dont mean pointing. Mean leaving the mortar joint clean, straight and no snots. If clean and straight, no need for internal pointing whatseover!

The request for internal pointing on site is just that. To ensure the cavity is kept clean. In reality the blockie knows a clean stuck block internally will make his life easier fitting insulation.

Yea agreed, I used to think in England it was over kill to point up the inside of a cavity if joints are full and clean.

Dermobrickie

sydthebeat wrote: »

I have no problem making the block layers life harder in order to do their job properly.

Thanks is good to no people like u are out there looking after us.