Handicap potential

Montgolfier

I'm dying to get my handicap cut I'm 12 ATM I feel my game is great my drives are long and have shape my wedges are good, putting great. My question though am doing it for my ego or maybe, should hold a little back?
It sounds awful but I've seen guys struggle and lose interest when the new rules came in last year. Naturally you should always do your best but am I alone? I mean it's been a long winter going on 6mts I've seen guys off 22 shooting 47pts and 45pts in consecutive months and not getting cut it makes me rethink.

callaway92

You say everything is great and yet you’re still off 12. There has to be something that isn’t very good or needs big improvement. More info needed

Edit: Maybe take the game less seriously and try to enjoy it more. Helped me a lot

bmay529

When the courses stretch out to their full summer length, we loose placing and the handicap system comes back into play I don't think we will see so many scores in the mid 40's. Play to your ability and see where that takes you. Judge yourself when you have a handicap card in your hand and there is no placing and see what you need to work on. Don't think about what others do as some that produce those high scores could be considered cheating!!! ... you seldom see such scores in medal rounds or the club majors when the course is usually at its toughest and where you do that shows real ability.

Montgolfier

I've been working hard on my game. My short game has always been a struggle especially in the winter. I was catching it fat and sticking the club in the ground (ball goes 6"). With the help of a good friend I have over came that problem. So my short game has good potential for improvement. My long game has always been reasonable and long but maybe a little inconsistent with my driving missing fairways. Over the winter I signed up to "me and my golf" 30day free trial of good videos and I learned to shape the ball better. Also I watch Steve Johnson PGA videos on YouTube.
Sounds ridiculous but I have a system in my swing and it works but I'm evolving all the time. My putting improved last year with the help of YouTube on perfecting my reverse overlap grip and using the edel fitting system which I made myself. I am confident my face alignment is correct.
Let's just say I'm a little obsessed with the game and its been a long winter. I'm egar to get cut but I don't want to be struggling to bring in a score when others are happy hold back.

Sultan_of_Ping

Montgolfier wrote: »

I'm dying to get my handicap cut I'm 12 ATM I feel my game is great my drives are long and have shape my wedges are good, putting great. My question though am doing it for my ego or maybe, should hold a little back?
It sounds awful but I've seen guys struggle and lose interest when the new rules came in last year. Naturally you should always do your best but am I alone? I mean it's been a long winter going on 6mts I've seen guys off 22 shooting 47pts and 45pts in consecutive months and not getting cut it makes me rethink.

They should be triggering ESRs.

clog

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

They should be triggering ESRs.

Non Qualifiers will not trigger ESRs on the system.

However the handicap committee has the authority to cut even for performance in non-qualifiers under CONGU rule 23.7.

Sultan_of_Ping

clog wrote: »

Non Qualifiers will not trigger ESRs on the system.

However the handicap committee has the authority to cut even for performance in non-qualifiers under CONGU rule 23.7.

True. Plus if someone is "concerned" about a player's handicap they can always write to the handicap secretary

BigChap1759

Montgolfier wrote: »

I've been working hard on my game. My short game has always been a struggle especially in the winter. I was catching it fat and sticking the club in the ground (ball goes 6"). With the help of a good friend I have over came that problem. So my short game has good potential for improvement. My long game has always been reasonable and long but maybe a little inconsistent with my driving missing fairways. Over the winter I signed up to "me and my golf" 30day free trial of good videos and I learned to shape the ball better. Also I watch Steve Johnson PGA videos on YouTube.
Sounds ridiculous but I have a system in my swing and it works but I'm evolving all the time. My putting improved last year with the help of YouTube on perfecting my reverse overlap grip and using the edel fitting system which I made myself. I am confident my face alignment is correct.
Let's just say I'm a little obsessed with the game and its been a long winter. I'm egar to get cut but I don't want to be struggling to bring in a score when others are happy hold back.

Sorry but are you asking in a round about way if it’s ok to pull ie not play for your best score? If not what are you asking?

Russman

Op,
Whatever your goals are in golf (handicap cuts, prizes, team selection etc), they're your own goals, nobody else's. You can't stress yourself about what others are doing, good or bad. If you want to get cut, why would you hold back ? The system is broadly designed so that when you get cut you struggle, probably get a few 0.1s back, and often end up back close to where you were originally.

Honestly, if you go out and play your game, your handicap will be what it will be. The system works fairly well overall (no its not perfect, but what is). Don't buy into the urban myth thing of believing that every second player out there is some sort of bandit or rogue. Yes, there are a few bad eggs out there but that's going be true in every sport or walk of life.

Big scores in the winter time mean little or nothing when you consider forward tees and placing (especially placing). I'd argue that its almost a different sport. You've got guys with 2 shots on a hole suddenly able to place the ball in the rough and hit a 3 wood up near the green whereas in the summer they'd likely be pitching out and still maybe not able to get to the green.

Russman

Montgolfier wrote: »

I've been working hard on my game. My short game has always been a struggle especially in the winter. I was catching it fat and sticking the club in the ground (ball goes 6"). With the help of a good friend I have over came that problem. So my short game has good potential for improvement. My long game has always been reasonable and long but maybe a little inconsistent with my driving missing fairways. Over the winter I signed up to "me and my golf" 30day free trial of good videos and I learned to shape the ball better. Also I watch Steve Johnson PGA videos on YouTube.
Sounds ridiculous but I have a system in my swing and it works but I'm evolving all the time. My putting improved last year with the help of YouTube on perfecting my reverse overlap grip and using the edel fitting system which I made myself. I am confident my face alignment is correct.
Let's just say I'm a little obsessed with the game and its been a long winter. I'm egar to get cut but I don't want to be struggling to bring in a score when others are happy hold back.

I'd also say be careful with all the practice that you don't fall into the trap of playing "golf swing" as opposed to "golf". Its very easy to do.

With regard to holding pack or "pulling" as its known, that's all down to intent, and nobody but the player will know for sure. For every guy who intentionally "pulls", there are dozens who have, say, a good front nine and genuinely fall apart on the back nine, or who need a par on the last for a good score and tense up and carve one out of bounds.

Hoboo

What do you mean by holding back? Not trying your best in order to get .1? Thats called cheating. If winning €40 GUI vouchers is more important than doing your best, beating the course and lowering your handicap, you're missing the real reward. Intrinsic rewards are far more valuable.

Montgolfier

Hoboo wrote: »

What do you mean by holding back? Not trying your best in order to get .1? Thats called cheating. If winning €40 GUI vouchers is more important than doing your best, beating the course and lowering your handicap, you're missing the real reward. Intrinsic rewards are far more valuable.

Just to clarify, there has been no cuts since last October and a long winter 6 MTS plus. I'm not talking about pulling I'm talking about effort!!!! If golfers don't put in equal effort how come we don't accuse lazy golfers of pulling.
I didn't respond earlier as I wasn't drunk which I am now so..
Anyway it is an honest question from an honest slightly pissed golfer about getting cut more than you can manage the rest of the season. Valid question no need for casting aspersions IMO!

Hoboo

Montgolfier wrote: »

Just to clarify, there has been no cuts since last October and a long winter 6 MTS plus. I'm not talking about pulling I'm talking about effort!!!! If golfers don't put in equal effort how come we don't accuse lazy golfers of pulling.
I didn't respond earlier as I wasn't drunk which I am now so..
Anyway it is an honest question from an honest slightly pissed golfer about getting cut more than you can manage the rest of the season. Valid question no need for casting aspersions IMO!

Apologies if I casted aspirations, from your post it sounded like you were considering holding back to be able to compete with guys who do (or sounds like they do......I know a few in our club that only turn up in winter, majors and fourballs). I don't think you should hold back to compete against them, in fact ignore them or even point it out to the handicap sec, but what I think you're saying is to hold back so its easier to hit 36 points every week, or play to your abilty rather than busting your ass and being stuck in a rut? IMHO its better to get cut and then analyse your game after every round to identify weaknesses or mistakes to be improved and cover the lost shots, and thats how you'll improve. That doesnt necessarily mean hitting better irons, drives, chips or putts, if as you said they're on point although there is always room for improvement especially around and on the green, it could be better course management, better prep such as warm ups, doing biomechanics classes to improve flexibility and fitness, better nutrition during play to maintain concentration, reading books on psychology, there are loads of ways to cover and cut more shots and play to your new hc than just the physical process of putting the ball in the hole.

Apologies again, I took you up wrong by the sounds of it.

Russman

Montgolfier wrote: »

Just to clarify, there has been no cuts since last October and a long winter 6 MTS plus. I'm not talking about pulling I'm talking about effort!!!! If golfers don't put in equal effort how come we don't accuse lazy golfers of pulling.
I didn't respond earlier as I wasn't drunk which I am now so..
Anyway it is an honest question from an honest slightly pissed golfer about getting cut more than you can manage the rest of the season. Valid question no need for casting aspersions IMO!

P1ssed or not, I think you've raised a very important point, and highlighted the futility of the GUI's handicap awareness month initiative. Essentially they're trying to define something that by its very nature, cannot be defined or proven. Apologies if this sounds like a rant, it's not, and it's certainly not one at you.
How do we define effort ? The GUI say that not trying 100% is cheating and they want it to be self policing.

If I play off X handicap, sometimes I'll play to it, sometimes (mostly) I won't. However, if I practice 3 evenings during the week, chances are I'll play to it a lot more. Is practising a requirement for holding an accurate handicap ? If I take a few lessons and practice a bit more, I'll play to it also, probably quite easily, is that the required effort for an accurate handicap ? Where do we draw the line at potential ? To be silly about it, anyone is potentially a scratch player if they quit their job and practice daily.

If I'm playing well, have a blow up hole mid way into the back nine, lose the rag and start hitting shots without thinking for 10/15 minutes, am I now "cheating" by arguably not trying 100% ?

I have a close friend who is very methodical, very deliberate, and for some reason, can't get his head round how someone can be just "good" at, say, golf. The idea of not having to "try hard" at something would be alien to him - it's practice swing, routine, etc etc. My father on the other hand, is one of the best putters I've ever seen and he never practises, rarely lines up his putts, and generally gives the impression of just standing up to the ball and hitting it. Someone who doesn't know him would easily say ".....sure yer man doesn't bother his b011ix at all." Yet I know that he plays worse when "taking his time" or doing what others perceive to be the right thing or trying hard enough.

Op, effort is impossible to define, so your just going it have to be comfortable that you are not wilfully doing something you shouldn't. I mean, is it effort over every shot, every hole or every round ? My best chance to make a par on a given hole might well be an iron off the tee, followed by a layup to take the trouble out of play - that might well be what I'd do in the Captains Prize. At the same time, in a meaningless Sunday singles I could easily take the driver and try to cut a corner, knowing its maybe a 1 in 4 shot for me, but because I don't care, I'm not too worried about having a no score on the hole. Could it be argued that I'm not putting in the required effort to have my best score ?

Can you imagine self policing that ? Or somebody writing in to the h/cap sec that John wasn't trying his best last week when you played with him ?

As regards getting cut more than you can manage, unfortunately that's the way the system is designed with cuts of up to 0.4 for every shot below CSS, yet only getting one 0.1 back for bad rounds. Personally I think the notion that you should have to play close to your best to play to your handicap is almost counter intuitive, and one that we find very hard to accept. Most of us, especially those who don't touch the clubs from Sunday to Saturday, don't feel like 32pts is actually pretty good and what the system wants us to do, we all feel or want to feel like we can hit 36pts if we play "ok".

It's such a grey area, all you can do is be happy that your own "intent" is good imho.

slingerz

For me the responsibility lies with the handicap committee. we had what would normally be one of our 'majors' played this weekend off the back tees but with winter rules and bunkers GUR. it was won by a 21 handicapper on 43 points. now given the length of the course one would expect a lower winning score. I believe a handicpa cut should be applied to players who break 40 even in such conditions under a general play cut.

the difficulty is that the human aspect where the handicap secretary will get grief in the bar for cutting some fella in winter/non qualifiying conditions under the general play rule. It makes it difficult for anyone working as handicap secretary to do so as nobody wants to be getting grief/abused for following the rules of their volunteer job. turning a blind eye to such scores in non qualifiying is easier than dealing with the problem in reality.

Summer rules, if they ever do come in this year, generally see these players not competing or winning any competitions due to fear of a handicap cut and it seems to be the case that is acceptable to most

Mantis Toboggan

slingerz wrote: »

For me the responsibility lies with the handicap committee. we had what would normally be one of our 'majors' played this weekend off the back tees but with winter rules and bunkers GUR. it was won by a 21 handicapper on 43 points. now given the length of the course one would expect a lower winning score. I believe a handicpa cut should be applied to players who break 40 even in such conditions under a general play cut.

the difficulty is that the human aspect where the handicap secretary will get grief in the bar for cutting some fella in winter/non qualifiying conditions under the general play rule. It makes it difficult for anyone working as handicap secretary to do so as nobody wants to be getting grief/abused for following the rules of their volunteer job. turning a blind eye to such scores in non qualifiying is easier than dealing with the problem in reality.

Summer rules, if they ever do come in this year, generally see these players not competing or winning any competitions due to fear of a handicap cut and it seems to be the case that is acceptable to most

Does your club not have winter handicaps in place?

Russman

slingerz wrote: »

For me the responsibility lies with the handicap committee. we had what would normally be one of our 'majors' played this weekend off the back tees but with winter rules and bunkers GUR. it was won by a 21 handicapper on 43 points. now given the length of the course one would expect a lower winning score. I believe a handicpa cut should be applied to players who break 40 even in such conditions under a general play cut.

the difficulty is that the human aspect where the handicap secretary will get grief in the bar for cutting some fella in winter/non qualifiying conditions under the general play rule. It makes it difficult for anyone working as handicap secretary to do so as nobody wants to be getting grief/abused for following the rules of their volunteer job. turning a blind eye to such scores in non qualifiying is easier than dealing with the problem in reality.

Summer rules, if they ever do come in this year, generally see these players not competing or winning any competitions due to fear of a handicap cut and it seems to be the case that is acceptable to most

I agree with a lot of your post, but that bit I'm not sure I buy fully tbh. I really don't think there are many (for sure there are probably a few) players who don't compete/win in case they get cut. It makes no sense, why hold your handicap if you're not going to "use it" to win ? Unless you play big money matches with your buddies maybe.
Honestly I think placing everywhere is worth quite a few shots per round, especially for higher handicap guys. Add in slow, bumpy greens and its probably worth another shot or two. Its easy to see how something 40 points plus is possible, especially in perfect weather like last weekend IMO.

ThunderCat

Sounds like you have put a lot of effort into improving and your lower handicap should be reflective of that. You should be proud that the effort you have put in have resulted in you becoming a better player which is evident in the reduced handicap. I don't know why anyone would want it any other way although of course some people don't see it that way and mind their handicaps. For me personally if I looked after my handicap all year and let it drift deliberately then nomatter what I won it wouldn't feel like a true victory as I had an advantage from the start. It's like winning a 100m race when you started the race 10m closer to the finish line than everyone else. And all that aside, when your club starts back with the qualifying competitions again it's easier said than done to go lower than your handicap and get cut regardless how good you feel about your game.

GreeBo

Russman wrote: »

Honestly I think placing everywhere is worth quite a few shots per round, especially for higher handicap guys. Add in slow, bumpy greens and its probably worth another shot or two. Its easy to see how something 40 points plus is possible, especially in perfect weather like last weekend IMO.

+1

Most higher handicaps struggle to compete when the course is in perfect condition. Short game is harder off thin, solid lies compared to fluffy long winter lies.

Bumpy, slow, untrue greens are far more beneficial for high handicaps.
Their high handicap has a 2 putt or 3 putt on each hole built in, mine has 7 or 8 up and downs built in. Its much harder to get up and down if your 6 foot putt is going to bounce all over the place.

By far the biggest benefit is not having to hack it out of the rough, middle of the summer these guys are hitting wedges out sideways, at the moment they are hitting 3 woods and drivers up to the green.

All that said, I still cut people on observation if they spent the winter season bringing in great scores. A couple of good scores is expected, winning the winter league with several scores around 5 UP means you are getting a letter from me.

Roll on summer.

FixdePitchmark

GreeBo wrote: »

+1

Most higher handicaps struggle to compete when the course is in perfect condition. Short game is harder off thin, solid lies compared to fluffy long winter lies.

Bumpy, slow, untrue greens are far more beneficial for high handicaps.
Their high handicap has a 2 putt or 3 putt on each hole built in, mine has 7 or 8 up and downs built in. Its much harder to get up and down if your 6 foot putt is going to bounce all over the place.

By far the biggest benefit is not having to hack it out of the rough, middle of the summer these guys are hitting wedges out sideways, at the moment they are hitting 3 woods and drivers up to the green.

All that said, I still cut people on observation if they spent the winter season bringing in great scores. A couple of good scores is expected, winning the winter league with several scores around 5 UP means you are getting a letter from me.

Roll on summer.

Good to see you back GreeBo

Keep an eye on them lads for us, from the Winter League

WHIP IT!

Montgolfier wrote: »

I'm dying to get my handicap cut I'm 12 ATM I feel my game is great my drives are long and have shape my wedges are good, putting great. My question though am doing it for my ego or maybe, should hold a little back?
It sounds awful but I've seen guys struggle and lose interest when the new rules came in last year. Naturally you should always do your best but am I alone? I mean it's been a long winter going on 6mts I've seen guys off 22 shooting 47pts and 45pts in consecutive months and not getting cut it makes me rethink.

This you?

https://www.rte.ie/sport/golf/2018/0116/933659-the-hacker-hack-new-year-new-me/

slingerz

Tyson Fury wrote: »

Does your club not have winter handicaps in place?

Nope just your normal handicap adjusted if the number of holes is reduced

Russman wrote: »

I agree with a lot of your post, but that bit I'm not sure I buy fully tbh. I really don't think there are many (for sure there are probably a few) players who don't compete/win in case they get cut. It makes no sense, why hold your handicap if you're not going to "use it" to win ? Unless you play big money matches with your buddies maybe.
Honestly I think placing everywhere is worth quite a few shots per round, especially for higher handicap guys. Add in slow, bumpy greens and its probably worth another shot or two. Its easy to see how something 40 points plus is possible, especially in perfect weather like last weekend IMO.

I never see these guys in my club winning in the summer time. maybe its not about protecting their handicaps but i think a share of these guys play in a number of team events and come out there alright.

I agree that summer conditions can be more testing, having to hack out of rough etc.

Its frustrating to have to shoot mid 40's to be in with a hope of winning a comp. Whatever chance i have off 10, my buddy off scratch needs to be 8 or 9 under to compete!

Mantis Toboggan

slingerz wrote: »

Nope just your normal handicap adjusted if the number of holes is reduced

Maybe talk to your club about introducing winter handicaps, it gets rid of the bandits.

mighty magpie

11 handicapper shot level par this week around our place. Keeping a close eye on what his summer handicap will be.

One fella (16/17 hcp) i play with has been 33 pts or above all winter. Now i'm not sure if there's been an improvement in his game or he just suits slow greens and placing. He was informed that his official handicap will be cut 1 shot which he agrees with. With this in mind, the 11 guy could possibly lose 2 or 3.

Only saving grace for me is that we have categories for every comp due to the number of entrants. Rarely does anyone in cat 1 hit 40

moycullen14

mighty magpie wrote: »

11 handicapper shot level par this week around our place. Keeping a close eye on what his summer handicap will be.

One fella (16/17 hcp) i play with has been 33 pts or above all winter. Now i'm not sure if there's been an improvement in his game or he just suits slow greens and placing. He was informed that his official handicap will be cut 1 shot which he agrees with. With this in mind, the 11 guy could possibly lose 2 or 3.

Only saving grace for me is that we have categories for every comp due to the number of entrants. Rarely does anyone in cat 1 hit 40

Winter rules are very tricky to police. It's barely recognisable as golf, to be honest. Once you can tee the ball up in the rough, all bets are off.

We have 12-14 hole voucher competitions through the winter with fairly dramatic temporary cuts (2 shots) for the winners.