Property Metrics: Euro / Square Meter

mrknock

Dear all,

is it time to make it COMPULSORY for agents and private sellers to forcibly publish the € per square meter ?

The rest of the world seems to work like that:

-BER certificates include this
-Critical when calculating extensions, insulating house, electricians, plumbers .... buying new windows ...
-House insurance

What is this magic metric that nobody else seems to be using in our country?

Is it not the way items have to be priced in supermarkets?

Am I going crazy ??? people do not seem to mind that this metric is CRITICAL before even deciding to bid on a property?

I say it is time to publish this COMPULSORY for all agents, websites etc ... lets stop this property bull**** TODAY.

heebusjeebus

Can't you calculate it yourself with the information provided in the ad?

ionapaul

I agree that publishing it would be helpful, but it isn't as though this metric (or €/square foot) is that hidden. Almost all ads include 1) asking price and 2) square feet/square meters. So you just have to take 10 seconds to work it out

mrknock

We are not discussing my math skills thank you

heebusjeebus

Location is the most important metric for me.
The next metric is how much the bank will give me.

mrknock

heebusjeebus wrote: »

Location is the most important metric for me.
The next metric is how much the bank will give me.

How do you quantify differences for two houses next to each other in the exact same area ?

heebusjeebus

mrknock wrote: »

How do you quantify differences for two houses next to each other in the exact same area ?

Realistically never going to happen unless you're looking to buy in a new estate.

mrknock

heebusjeebus wrote: »

Realistically never going to happen unless you're looking to buy in a new estate.

I am wasting my time with this country.

syndrome777

you are lucky if estate agents even know the square footage.
I was in numerous viewing and I asked what the sq m of the place was (as it wasn't n the add) most of them didn't havea clue and were looking at me like I asked if the boat is cumming with this property or something

the whole this how it's done here is a joke

Sarn

It would be useful in the property price register. It would make general comparisons a bit easier. At the moment it requires a search for old ads to see what size and state the property was in when it was sold.

Lumen

Why do you think this is important?

A house with a lower price per sqm is only better value is all else is equal, and all else is NEVER equal.

If you're going to obsess over one metric, start with ACH measured by blower door testing.

hognef

Indeed there should be a requirement to include the floor area in ads, and certainly in the property price register. It seems absolutely mad to me the way it works today, even the way statistics are done in this country. I mean, seriously, how useful is it to know that the "average price of a 3-bedroom semi detached house outside Dublin" is, say,€250,000?

Surely it's a lot more helpful to know that the "average price per sqm in Newbridge" is €25,000?

The obsessions with the number of bedrooms in this country is baffling. People seem to prefer a 4-bedroom, 100 sqm, house to a 3-bedroom, 150 sqm, house.

Price per sqm could be useful also in ads, but a first step would be to make sure the sqm value is available.

Lumen

hognef wrote: »

Price per sqm could be useful also in ads, but a first step would be to make sure the sqm value is available.

Excepting BER exempt properties (aka money pits), the sqm is available in the BER, which is itself a public document, and including the cert number in the ad is a legal requirement.

It makes scraping stats harder for the market watchers, but if you're looking at an individual property it's only a couple of clicks.

super_furry

mrknock wrote: »

I am wasting my time with this country.

All the best so.

robp

heebusjeebus wrote: »

mrknock wrote: »

How do you quantify differences for two houses next to each other in the exact same area ?

Realistically never going to happen unless you're looking to buy in a new estate.

It is easy to calculate. It should be provided for purchases and rentals and is elsewhere in the world.

uck51js9zml2yt

mrknock wrote: »

I am wasting my time with this country.

You know where the airport is!tra-la

Wesser

How do you quantify differences for two houses next to each other in the exact same area ?[/quote]

If the houses are exactly the same and in the exact same location then I start by bidding on the cheaper one but monitoring the other one.

If they are not exactly the same the i look to see what the difference is e.g. Windows, upgradedkitchen etc and decide if I feel the improvement is worth it. Then proceed as per step one.

Lumen

With refurbishment costs at something like 1k psm, larger properties are something of a liability.

ted1

mrknock wrote: »

Dear all,

is it time to make it COMPULSORY for agents and private sellers to forcibly publish the € per square meter ?

The rest of the world seems to work like that:

-BER certificates include this
-Critical when calculating extensions, insulating house, electricians, plumbers .... buying new windows ...
-House insurance

What is this magic metric that nobody else seems to be using in our country?

Is it not the way items have to be priced in supermarkets?

Am I going crazy ??? people do not seem to mind that this metric is CRITICAL before even deciding to bid on a property?

I say it is time to publish this COMPULSORY for all agents, websites etc ... lets stop this property bull**** TODAY.

I don’t think it’s critical. Location is critical. What the heck does sq m have to do with plumbing , windows or electric s?

The sq m is in the BER

ted1

Sarn wrote: »

It would be useful in the property price register. It would make general comparisons a bit easier. At the moment it requires a search for old ads to see what size and state the property was in when it was sold.

How could you make a comparsdion without seen the properties ? One might need a complete renovation. One might have an expensive finish

BabysCoffee

I find working out the sq m is a very useful tool for comparing prices of houses.

I know the general sq m price for my area and when I see a house that looks low or high price I can always compare the sq m price to see how that compares to the average.

It is plainly obvious to see if a how is way overpriced.......unless of course they have way above standard fit out or a massive side garden (another site) which might push the sq m way above the average.

It is very useful to know the sq m when say comparing apartment prices and house prices in the same area. It is definitely a good guide for buyers to see if they are being ripped off and as the OP says is given in lots of other countries.

James 007

I think the metric should be to a certain level of accuracy and is useful to compare size difference between 2 houses and their associated cost.

It kind of reminds me when I see in the butchers 5 pork chops for €5 where I would prefer to see 0.7kg of pork for €5 so that I could do a cost comparison. It drives my mum crazy too as she used always know the cost/lbs.

robp

ted1 wrote: »

mrknock wrote: »

Dear all,

is it time to make it COMPULSORY for agents and private sellers to forcibly publish the € per square meter ?

The rest of the world seems to work like that:

-BER certificates include this
-Critical when calculating extensions, insulating house, electricians, plumbers .... buying new windows ...
-House insurance

What is this magic metric that nobody else seems to be using in our country?

Is it not the way items have to be priced in supermarkets?

Am I going crazy ???  people do not seem to mind that this metric is CRITICAL before even deciding to bid on a property?

I say it is time to publish this COMPULSORY for all agents, websites etc ... lets stop this property bull**** TODAY.

I don’t think it’s critical. Location is critical. What the heck does sq m have to do with plumbing , windows or electric s?

The sq m is in the BER

sq m is as useful as knowing how many bedrooms are present but knowing the number of bedrooms is considered crucial.

syndrome777

sometimes you just want a property of a certain size.
E.g not want a 2 bed apt of 40 sq.m.

or 2 bed house of 120sq m.

for me that puts a lot of things in perspective.....most of the time there are sizes of the rooms listed ...but many times there is no size and no room dimensions....I find that to be very unprofessional and it waists a lot of time

and many times than I would liked I've been on viewings where the agents couldn't provide me with these numbers

theboringfox

I get where OP is coming from. But I was happy that price was quoted and sqm was quoted so price per sqm is available. Rarely seen measurements hidden. Can be a grey area too as some houses have extensions done that add to size but sometimes need to be torn down so actually have no value. So many factors go into buying a house.

If there was a change put on selling process I would like to see lot more onus put on vendor to have property ready for sale and in terms of condition of property. I think it leads to drawn out closings etc.

mrknock

If we managed to obtain for all properties

-euro/sqm (best price predictor)
-geotagged all properties in the price register

We would not see half of the abuse we see nowadays. It is like technology never reached politics in this country

theboringfox

mrknock wrote: »

If we managed to obtain for all properties

-euro/sqm (best price predictor)
-geotagged all properties in the price register

We would not see half of the abuse we see nowadays. It is like technology never reached politics in this country

I disagree euro/sqm is best price indicator but yes if included with location and BER it would give a much better sense. Totally agree with where you are coming from and not sure why PPR can't include a few more details such as size and BER etc. Site size can be as important in City and whether it's detached or semi D. Those things matter. I've seen people in City pay up big time for extra garden.

Graham

mrknock wrote: »

If we managed to obtain for all properties

-euro/sqm (best price predictor)
-geotagged all properties in the price register

We would not see half of the abuse we see nowadays. It is like technology never reached politics in this country

I don't think that euro/sqm is anything like the best price indicator. It completely fails to take into account the standard of the property or any work that has been done or may need to be done.

While I do agree, euro/sqm would be useful/interesting additional information, it is pretty meaningless on its own.

What abuse do you think would be stopped?

hognef

Graham wrote: »

I don't think that euro/sqm is anything like the best price indicator. It completely fails to take into account the standard of the property or any work that has been done or may need to be done.

What is the best indicator so? Number of bedrooms, which is pretty much the only metric always available?

While I do agree, euro/sqm would be useful/interesting additional information, it is pretty meaningless on its own.

In fairness, every piece of information is meaningless on its own.

The standard of advertising needs to be dramatically improved in general, e.g.

- Quality of pictures is often ****e
- Floor area often missing
- Floor plans often missing
- Site area never mentioned
- Address is often in accurate
- BER cert. no. should be mandatory
- Size of management fees are never mentioned

hognef

hognef wrote: »

What is the best indicator so? Number of bedrooms, which is pretty much the only metric always available?

The best indicator is you going to see the property and deciding for yourself if you want to live in that house in that location. Nothing else.

hognef

Malia Tender Phlegm wrote: »

The best indicator is you going to see the property and deciding for yourself if you want to live in that house in that location. Nothing else.

If you've nothing better to do, that's fine. In which case there's also no need for a description, pictures, location, price or anything else, as all will be revealed when you see the property.

koheim

Price per sqm should be mandatory, this is what all other countries use. I think there are vested interest against it. It could devaluate the smallest 3 bed semidetached, but so it should. I am sick of listening to what the cost of a 3 bed semi is, some (most are) are 90sqm, but some are 120sqm, you can't compare those as 3bed semi, that is just wrong and lazy.  
When you build a house all the talk is price per sqm, but as soon as you buy this is suddenly not available.

Graham

hognef wrote: »

What is the best indicator so? Number of bedrooms, which is pretty much the only metric always available?

Comparable property is the only realistic indicator of recent market value.

Far too many variables for €/sq m to be meaningful on its own. It's a meaningful addition but nothing more.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that sq m shouldn't be provided. I'm suggesting it's not the answer to life the universe and everything.

Living Off The Splash

Quite often in the second phase of a new development the houses are smaller than in the first phase. Show Houses are elevated in size. Many times people see the show house with it's furniture fitting in nicely, then try and fit their furniture and it doesn't fit.
If purchasing one of these second hand it is often advisable to see a range of houses in the estate.

Diarmuid

mrknock wrote: »

If we managed to obtain for all properties

-euro/sqm (best price predictor)
-geotagged all properties in the price register

We would not see half of the abuse we see nowadays. It is like technology never reached politics in this country

Don't you know? Ireland is different. It's special. Metrics that work the world over, don't apply here.

For instance, if you are buying in France, you could use this website to browse the average price/m2 for each region, down to almost block-by-block resolution. Here's Nice for example https://www.meilleursagents.com/prix-immobilier/nice-06000/

It's an excellent metric. For example, say I have 300k to spend but I want at least 90m2. Well then I can go to the heatmap above and see where I most likely will find such properties (€3300/m2). Say I don't like the look of those locations then it's a very simple calculation to see how small I have to go to afford a property in the location I want to live in.

This guys has used this data to investigate correlations between various factors in a property in Paris. Location is primary followed by size. http://flothesof.github.io/paris-appartment-prices.html

Graham

Diarmuid wrote: »

It's an excellent metric. For example, say I have 300k to spend but I want at least 90m2. Well then I can go to the heatmap above and see where I most likely will find such properties (€3300/m2). Say I don't like the look of those locations then it's a very simple calculation to see how small I have to go to afford a property in the location I want to live in.

It's still a meaningless metric on its own.

€3300/m2 could be great value for a fully restored châteauesque style family home or crap value for a partially modernised cow shed.

Diarmuid

Graham wrote: »

It's still a meaningless metric on its own.
.

In conjunction with the location, it's the most important metric. By a long shot

Graham

Diarmuid wrote: »

In conjunction with the location, it's the most important metric. By a long shot

I refer you to the aforementioned cowshed in what used to be the grounds of the fully restored châteauesque style family home.

Consider 2 dimensionally equal adjoining semi-detached houses. One has recently had a full refurb, new electrics, new wiring, new flooring, new windows, fully fitted state of the art kitchen. The other hasn't been touched since 1968.

Location and €/m2 are nowhere near the full story.

Lumen

Diarmuid wrote: »

In conjunction with the location, it's the most important metric. By a long shot

Important where? In Dublin?

Site area and zoning are arguably more important. And freehold vs leasehold.

Claw Hammer

There are 3 elements in the valuation of property and size is not one of them.

theboringfox

Lumen wrote: »

Important where? In Dublin?

Site area and zoning are arguably more important. And freehold vs leasehold.

What is the value of freehold vs leasehold. I had a 900 year leasehold and I went and got the freehold as I kept seeing freehold title being noted as big deal. I get the legal difference but in my case the lease was so long and the peppercorn rent was so tiny that I don't think there was any benefit. I just did it as thought it might help value if selling and I just for no reason had a thing about owning the freehold.

hognef

Graham wrote: »

Location and €/m2 are nowhere near the full story.

It's not the full story, so it must be useless? Can't have everything, so don't want anything?

Graham

hognef wrote: »

It's not the full story, so it must be useless? Can't have everything, so don't want anything?

I'm assuming you quoted the wrong post because I know that's not what I suggested.

ted1

mrknock wrote: »

If we managed to obtain for all properties

-euro/sqm (best price predictor)
-geotagged all properties in the price register

We would not see half of the abuse we see nowadays. It is like technology never reached politics in this country

Location, garden size and the finish greatly affect the price. Euro /sqm is far from the best indicator

robp

ted1 wrote: »

mrknock wrote: »

If we managed to obtain for all properties

-euro/sqm (best price predictor)
-geotagged all properties in the price register

We would not see half of the abuse we see nowadays.  It is like technology never reached politics in this country

Location, garden size  and the finish greatly affect the price.  Euro /sqm is far from the best indicator

Finish is hard to show in a website add and it can be subjective. One way to show finish it is show the build year on the website ad. All German house ads show the build year (it is used to calculate price in rentals). The more information available makes a better market.

ted1

robp wrote: »

ted1 wrote: »

mrknock wrote: »

If we managed to obtain for all properties

-euro/sqm (best price predictor)
-geotagged all properties in the price register

We would not see half of the abuse we see nowadays.  It is like technology never reached politics in this country

Location, garden size  and the finish greatly affect the price.  Euro /sqm is far from the best indicator

Finish is hard to show in a website add and it can be subjective. One way to show finish it is show the build year on the website ad. All German house ads show the build year (it is used to calculate price in rentals). The more information available makes a better market.

That’s daft.

So tell me how do you base rent based on build year?

Sleepy

The more dimensions of data available, the better any analysis can be.

Property and Site Square Meter Size, Most Recent BER rating, Number of Bedrooms, Electoral District and Year of Build should all be included in the Property Price Register IMO.

Lumen

Sleepy wrote: »

The more dimensions of data available, the better any analysis can be.

Property and Site Square Meter Size, Most Recent BER rating, Number of Bedrooms, Electoral District and Year of Build should all be included in the Property Price Register IMO.

Electoral district? To what end? What does it matter?

The dysfunction in Ireland's property market has absolutely nothing to do with poor metrics.

A lot of people on the internet thought the PPR would stop people paying stupid money for property. That was and is a peculiar techno-utopian perspective.

Efficient markets generally require good information, good information is not sufficient. A residential property is so far away from an efficient financial instrument that marginally improved data quality would really make no difference.

Supply is the only thing that matters in this market, and not one extra house will be built if the PPR contains this data.

It's rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic, polishing a turd, a distraction from the real issues.

ted1

Sleepy wrote: »

The more dimensions of data available, the better any analysis can be.

Property and Site Square Meter Size, Most Recent BER rating, Number of Bedrooms, Electoral District and Year of Build should all be included in the Property Price Register IMO.

Why ?

robp

Lumen wrote: »

Electoral district? To what end? What does it matter?

The dysfunction in Ireland's property market has absolutely nothing to do with poor metrics.

A lot of people on the internet thought the PPR would stop people paying stupid money for property. That was and is a peculiar techno-utopian perspective.

Efficient markets generally require good information, good information is not sufficient. A residential property is so far away from an efficient financial instrument that marginally improved data quality would really make no difference.

Supply is the only thing that matters in this market, and not one extra house will be built if the PPR contains this data.

It's rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic, polishing a turd, a distraction from the real issues.

It is not proposed as a solution to the housing problem, just as an aid for people looking at what is available.

mrknock

Funny fact, Irish auctioneers already seem to work with this metric:

https://www.ipav.ie/sites/default/files/ipav_residential_property_price_barometer_results_for_july-december_2017_web.pdf

"An extra feature of this IPAV survey is that it also
includes prices per square metre which enables
home buyers to compare the value for money
that they can achieve in terms of the spaciousness
of the homes. This can be especially important
in determining how the average price
compares with the size of home that is being
bought. "


Ronan Lyons also seems to agree .... https://www.independent.ie/life/home-garden/why-price-per-square-metre-matters-36093335.html

The UK stats office: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/housing/articles/housepriceshowmuchdoesonesquaremetrecostinyourarea/2017-10-11

There is even a patent: https://patents.google.com/patent/US6141648A/en