Green/Bio diesel contamination - suspicious and costly diagnosis from diesel shop

cormie

Hey folks, a few months ago, my 2L FWD TDCI 2005 Transit went into idle mode all of a sudden driving on the motorway going up a hill. This happened a few times again on the same trip and would continually happen depending on the pressure/revs/speed/gear combination increase, so going up an incline, or at a higher speed. The van would lose power, not completely, but sometimes if a hill was steep enough it would cut out completely.

There was also an intermittent but constant shake of the engine when it was just sitting idle and you could see it jumping a little if you opened the bonnet.

I brought it to my mechanic who said it was quite common with this van and that it could run to almost 2K to fix. He said it would hopefully be cheaper if they don't find any filings or shavings when they check the system and it might just be the injectors.

They emptied the tank and found no filings and left it with the diesel shop who did the injectors. This cost I think €1,080.

The problem was not resolved. The engine was still shaking sitting idle and it still went into idle mode. The mechanic checked the computer again and it reported a fault with the pedal so I had to change this aswell. Again, no improvement.

I was hoping the next time I'd bring it back, changing the fuel pump would resolve the issue and I knew it was going to be around €700 to do this, but at this stage I just wanted it fixed.

Anyway, I got a call from the mechanic yesterday saying that the diesel shop believe there's either green or bio diesel in the system and this this is what was causing the problem. He's waiting to get a price back from them, but it sounds like they need to completely clean out the system and it sounds like they are going to have to re-do the injectors and then do the fuel pump too, so it sounds like it might end up costing me about 2K, when I've already paid over 1K and already paid for the injectors to be done.

They also said there'd be no warranty with the work done. The mechanic said he saw a sample of the diesel that was in it and it looked a dirty black colour.

This is a very strange outcome to me. I've been the only one to drive this van since before the problem presented itself and I've only ever filled it at stations that accept my fuel card and never would have put any dodgy diesel into it. Also, would they not have noticed this the last time when they repaired the injectors?? To say this now after having already spent over 1K on it is very suspicious to me and there's also no guarantee that this will even resolve the problem if they do fix it.

If anyone has any advice on this, I'd really appreciate it!

Tuco88

Is Green Diesel the same as regular Diesel with just with a die in it? I didn't think it would do any harm.

cormie

Tuco88 wrote: »

Is Green Diesel the same as regular Diesel with justba die in it? I didn't think it would do any harm.

Yeah this is what I thought too, that they just dye it to be able to identify anyone using it illegitimately. The mechanic said it or the bio can affect the performance though

Blazer

Fire your mechanic. He’s obviously either a complete moron or chancer. Probably both.
Apart from the dye there’s no difference since green diesel was required to meet more stricter requirements a few years ago. Previously they had a higher sulphur content. Even if you had put green diesel in it wouldn’t have done a bit of damage.

cormie

Just off the phone to the mechanic.

He said whatever is in the tank now definitely isn't right and that it may not necessarily have been there the first time but may be a result of a recent fill but it needs to be cleaned out from the system either way. He's taken a sample and will take photos etc to show me.

There's a fuel metering control issue with the pump which to fix will be 250+13.5% vat

Then each injector will need to be redone @ 140+13.5% vat each

919 inc vat for the diesel shop bill, then the mechanic work is about 4/5 hours to strip out, clean and replace so about €1,250.

He said the common issue with the fuel pump is that the bearings go and this causes the metal filings which usually runs to about 5-600eur bill for the diesel shop. They only changed the injectors initially, if they looked at the pump and saw the issue with the meter control, then I could have paid the 250 then and at least I would have known if the issue was resolved, even if I did get dodgy fuel in the mean time.

Now I don't know what to do. Still seems there's no warranty or anything with whatever will be done with it.

Blazer

If they’re not going to stand over their work with a warranty then go somewhere else. I imagine most mechanics would provide a warranty on something like this but I could be wrong?

firstlight

Go to a different mechanic
Have seen bad diesel from a garage in the past myself
Black in colour and smelt like thinners
Was also a ford,a diesel mondeo though
Look for a different opinion before you fork out that amount of cash
Sure the vans only worth about 2000

cormie

The problem is the luton body and the bonnet have sign writing and there's a fair bit of electric custom work for dash cameras, reversing cams etc, as well as tie rails and everything in the luton itself, so if I'm getting a new one, it would probably make most sense to transfer the luton over to a chassis cab.

I trust the mechanic, been using him for years, but I'm not sure on the diesel shop and the warranty thing and having to pay again for what I've already paid for is not right

firstlight

Completely understand what you mean,Alot of money put into it
Like you said at least the body can be placed onto another chassis cab if you can source one within a budget
Like you said also the warranty thing does not sound right, If they are not willing to stand over the work it suggests their not 100% confident the work will fix it
So you could be 3000 in and nothing to show for it



I use to have a 2.4 Tddi Transit myself,The old duratorc engine and injectors on it never gave a bit of bother,Some times you can just be unlucky

cormie

Yeah I've had a few transits. I had a similar issue on another one, I think it was 2.4 TDDI, but I think it was a pretty easy fix from what I remember.

The warranty thing is issue alright and I find it very strange that my fuel would have been polluted in the short time between now and the last time they did it. It doesn't seem right that I have to pay again to re-do what they did only recently. I wonder would I have any argument with having paid for something that didn't fix the issue?

dr.fuzzenstein

cormie wrote: »

There was also an intermittent but constant shake of the engine when it was just sitting idle and you could see it jumping a little if you opened the bonnet.

I brought it to my mechanic who said it was quite common with this van and that it could run to almost 2K to fix. He said it would hopefully be cheaper if they don't find any filings or shavings when they check the system and it might just be the injectors.

reported a fault with the pedal so I had to change this aswell

...and it sounds like they are going to have to re-do the injectors and then do the fuel pump too, so it sounds like it might end up costing me about 2K, when I've already paid over 1K and already paid for the injectors to be done.

They also said there'd be no warranty with the work done. The mechanic said he saw a sample of the diesel that was in it and it looked a dirty black colour.

CHANGE MECHANIC IMMEDIATELY!!!!!
He is easter-egging. Meaning he hasn't got a bollocks clue what is wrong and is just randomly changing parts, hoping that, by pure luck, he changes the bit that is causing the problem.
Had an issue once with a diesel CMax, the 1.8, it just stalled and wouldn't start again.
Mechanic was along the same lines, "yeah, injectors and pumps mate, cost you a couple a grand", so I took it to a Ford dealer.
2 days later Ford had diagnosed that a fuel line was drawing air and they fixed the problem for a hundred quid.
Too many mechanics who know as much about diesel as my dog are working in the field, they're called the injector jockeys, because this is their first action always, instead of doing even the most basic bits of troubleshooting first.

cormie

I've used this guy for years, he knows his stuff when it comes to transits, he knew about the issue as soon as I mentioned the power dropping and he said it's a common fault with the TDCI's and would be the injector or the fuel pump so he dropped it to the diesel shop for them to diagnose which and they just changed the injectors but did nothing with the fuel pump, even though they are now stating the fuel pump has an issue, so it's them I think the problem is with

Wailin

Do as you have already been advised OP and get rid of that mechanic. You're being ripped off blatantly. Maybe not intentionally but the guy has no idea what's causing the issue and it's plain as day.

cormie

cormie wrote: »

I've used this guy for years, he knows his stuff when it comes to transits, he knew about the issue as soon as I mentioned the power dropping and he said it's a common fault with the TDCI's and would be the injector or the fuel pump so he dropped it to the diesel shop for them to diagnose which and they just changed the injectors but did nothing with the fuel pump, even though they are now stating the fuel pump has an issue, so it's them I think the problem is with

He should have been able to either / or the problem to the pump or injectors. Add in the pedal fault remedy that again remedied sfa and it's clear your mechanic is clueless on this issue.

Fair enough he's been doing servicing for years for you.

Still....he's letting you down big-time here.

You're dealing with him not the diesel shop.

cormie

Just spoken to the mechanic again.

He's saying the diesel crowd WILL stand over it as long as it doesn't come back with contaminated fuel and that I can easily check this myself by pouring some out from the fuel filter before giving it to them again. He was confident it would fix the idle mode issue with the fuel system too.

He said 1200 max inc vat to fix the fuel pump and injectors and do the required labour and then the bill on the DOE stuff is just under €400, but that has to be paid either way as it's already done. He said he wouldn't charge me for having taken out and refitting the injectors etc if I don't want the diesel shop to do the work on that so would just have to pay the €400, but that the van wasn't running well when he drove it around and would go into idle mode with glow plugs coming on before he gave it into the diesel shop.


I got the VAN DOE'd on the same tank of fuel it had when dropping it to the mechanic, is there any chance they would have taken a fuel sample or anything like that just incase the diesel shop contaminated it themselves on purpose?

I'm thinking, it's far more likely a diesel shop might contaminate a system to get a few hundred euro extra for work off an unsuspecting customer, than any of the garages I filled at to have had contaminated fuel tat they are hoping to get away with what could be hundreds of customers.

cormie

Just off a 13 minute phone call with the service manager at a main Ford dealer about the issue. It's the same place I put the van for a DOE so I was ringing to see if there was anything in a DOE that would take a sample reading of fuel to determine it's quality since it's the same tank of fuel I had for the DOE and when the diesel shop got it.

He said the diagnosis sounds right and that this is common with this engine (which is what the mechanic and other posters on a ford transit form said too) and he was saying they should have checked the fuel pump the first time too that usually they are done together, but that it's not completely unlikely that the fuel would have been contaminated somehow in the mean time, or that there was sediment/sludge that went through the system if the van was running too low.

He said the work description sounds right based on the issue anyway and that it would cost about 4K with new parts from a main dealer so the price isn't so bad.

He reassured me quite a bit that it's what needs to be done and that it's certainly possible that the fuel was contaminated somehow in the short space of time, and with the snow and bad weather that perhaps a garages fuel was contaminated somehow where I filled from.

I don't think I've much choice but to go ahead with it. It seems what it needs now is probably reasonable, but it seems they didn't do the proper job (checking the fuel pump too) the first time I paid the €1,080 for the job.

Turbohymac

Ya had a 2004 tdci before Jesus I couldn't keep injectors and pump going . Also the engine head gives major problems. I'm a diesel mechanic & must say ford is absolutely shot vans. Moved to a vw crafter absolutely dream machine. Sometimes it's down to bad driving & cheap or no servicing that makes these problems but with the transits it's complete design flaws .. my one used to even overheat the diesel returning to the fuel tank which then caused build up of condensation. Yes water then in the diesel.. ford made loads of upgrades mid 05 and fitted a totally different high pressure pump and even a fuel cooling coil before hot fuel returned to tank .. but couldn't rectify the soft crap engine that's under the bonnet. There's a great van for carrying loads &comfortable to drive but impossible to keep engine fuel system.. dual mass flywheel. And starter motors .. oh and after all that the engine head fecks up and eventually you have a non viable repair and a worthless / engineless van . From my dealings with ford their vans are simply not fit for purpose & ford fails to rectify their design f...ups
At least vw actually carry out recalls.
Ford instead wants to simply sell another new piece of crap. Is it any wonder how breakers are cleaning up selling. Low mileage transit engines to unfortunate transit owners with fecked up engines.. definitely worst make &design of van out there. Total money pits and worthless as their many faults are now common knowledge

mikeecho

Tuco88 wrote: »

Is Green Diesel the same as regular Diesel with just with a die in it? I didn't think it would do any harm.

Green diesel has slightly different specs to regular road diesel, mainly the min cetane number (45 vs 51) and a few other minor bits and pieces.

But that shouldn't cause the problems that the OP is experiencing.

cormie

This is an absolute joke..


03/22, Thursday - DOE FAIL - 21 days to bring it back for retest
03/22, Friday
03/24, Saturday - Drop to mechanic (Saturday, diesel shop closed)
03/25, Sunday
03/26, Monday
03/27, Tuesday
03/28, Wednesday - DOE work done on above days and van now with diesel shop. Waiting on update from diesel shop - got diagnosis in evening, waiting on price
03/29, Thursday - Got price - Semd texts about costs
03/30, Friday - Waiting on price for DOE work. Send texts about costs agian.
03/31, Saturday
04/01, Sunday
04/02, Monday
04/03, Tuesday - Say I need van back for Thursday
04/04, Wednesday - Speak to mechanic, give go ahead at 15:18. Ask to please tryhave ready for tomorrow (Thursday) evening, and get "will do" back
04/05, Thursday - Ask if any hope it'll be ready by 14:30 that day, told not a hope. Ask if possible for evening and say I've jobs booked for the morning.
04/06, Friday - ring and am told van still not ready, end up having to rent van for €90 to do jobs
04/07, Saturday
04/08, Sunday
04/09, Monday - Ask if any progress with van by text, try to ring, no answer
04/10, Tuesday - Ask about progress, told the van is back from diesel shop but the problem is still there
04/11, Wednesday - Van given back to diesel shop
04/12, Thursday - Van booked for 17:00 DOE retest. Last day, if fails, will have to pay for full retest.



I've also a job to the UK booked that the van is needed for this weekend. It'll cost me around €500 to rent a similar size van for the time I need it for the job. This is how small businesses can be ****ed with incompetence from other businesses.

Also, from what I know, the small claims court is for consumer > business only and not business > business?

firstlight

cormie wrote: »

This is an absolute joke..


03/22, Thursday - DOE FAIL - 21 days to bring it back for retest
03/22, Friday
03/24, Saturday - Drop to mechanic (Saturday, diesel shop closed)
03/25, Sunday
03/26, Monday
03/27, Tuesday
03/28, Wednesday - DOE work done on above days and van now with diesel shop. Waiting on update from diesel shop - got diagnosis in evening, waiting on price
03/29, Thursday - Got price - Semd texts about costs
03/30, Friday - Waiting on price for DOE work. Send texts about costs agian.
03/31, Saturday
04/01, Sunday
04/02, Monday
04/03, Tuesday - Say I need van back for Thursday
04/04, Wednesday - Speak to mechanic, give go ahead at 15:18. Ask to please tryhave ready for tomorrow (Thursday) evening, and get "will do" back
04/05, Thursday - Ask if any hope it'll be ready by 14:30 that day, told not a hope. Ask if possible for evening and say I've jobs booked for the morning.
04/06, Friday - ring and am told van still not ready, end up having to rent van for €90 to do jobs
04/07, Saturday
04/08, Sunday
04/09, Monday - Ask if any progress with van by text, try to ring, no answer
04/10, Tuesday - Ask about progress, told the van is back from diesel shop but the problem is still there
04/11, Wednesday - Van given back to diesel shop
04/12, Thursday - Van booked for 17:00 DOE retest. Last day, if fails, will have to pay for full retest.



I've also a job to the UK booked that the van is needed for this weekend. It'll cost me around €500 to rent a similar size van for the time I need it for the job. This is how small businesses can be ****ed with incompetence from other businesses.

Also, from what I know, the small claims court is for consumer > business only and not business > business?

Sorry to hear it,some waste of time been passed from pillar to post
I know you have spent loads on getting it sorted but if you get it running and your in a position to get a different chassis cab I would ship it on
Some yokes are just hardship,jinxed

If it was me I'd find a new mechanic too