Is it time for a 2+2 retrofit programme?

marno21

In light of continued reduced funding for capital investment in roads, and the continued issues with high speed collisions on legacy WS2 schemes, and the clear capacity and journey time benefits from retrofitting, is it time to start retrofitting stretches of WS2 especially those that will be integrated into new build 2+2 schemes in future?

Some in particular:

* N20 Croom bypass (will likely be amalgamated into the M20 scheme, mainline of 3/4km includes no at grade turns)
* N21 Castleisland-Abbeyfeale scheme, Headley's Bridge-Feale Bridge (mostly grade seperated, could be fully grade seperated with some minor works)
* N25 Kilmacthomas bypass - brilliant stretch of WS2
* N17 Claremorris/Knock bypass
* N4 Curlews bypass
* N15 Ballyshannon/Bundoran bypass

nordydan

Would the N33 to Ardee also qualify?

Pereplyotchik

I would agree in principle with the idea of a retrofit of some of the WS2 routes, but I think that there are many more pressing concerns and many routes that could offer better cost-benefit return for the exchequer and for motorists rather than upgrading roads that are already pretty good.

For example the N84 Galway to Castlebar is a very busy road and one that looks like it will continue to get busier as Galway and Castlebar expand. It's a pretty shocking road in some places but it's rural and there is scope to widen, level off and straighten this road and bypass places like Headford and Ballinrobe, that's just an example of the awful national routes out there, you could throw in a dozen other routes in the west of Ireland alone..

There is a need to upgrade some routes, absolutely, but the choices have to be the right ones rather than the usual parish pump stuff...

roadmaster

i am sort of all over the place when it comes my opinion on Type Two but when you read this publication by the NRA/TII how can you not think Type 2 is not a good thing

http://www.tiipublications.ie/library/DN-GEO-03059-01.pdf

But funny enough i was talking with some colleagues about this type of road lately who are from a non construction background and they are terrified of driving on them. They have a fear of braking down and no where to go and then getting hit from behind.

Then earlier this week i was on the rooskey road driving along when all of a sudden cars where pulling in to the right lane suddenly. I quickly seen that a car was stopped in the driving lane with no hazard lights . Rightly or wrongly its a 100km road but 90% people are doing 120km and more which leaves little room to react.

If a roll out of these Type 2 roads was to take place another ad campaign like the to use a roundabout should be done. How to use these roads is probably part of the driving test these days anyway.

loyatemu

a lot of drivers treat WS2 as defacto dual-carriageways anyway, driving in the hard shoulder or pulling up behind other traffic and bullying them into the HS. I hate them, they're chaotic, so I'd be all for upgrading some of them. I don't know whether lack of hard shoulders on 2+2 is a significant problem, cars don't break down as much as they used to, but anyone can have a blowout.

roadmaster

loyatemu wrote: »

a lot of drivers treat WS2 as defacto dual-carriageways anyway, driving in the hard shoulder or pulling up behind other traffic and bullying them into the HS. I hate them, they're chaotic, so I'd be all for upgrading some of them. I don't know whether lack of hard shoulders on 2+2 is a significant problem, cars don't break down as much as they used to, but anyone can have a blowout.

i agree about cars not breaking now as much but i think its a perception issue. Ill give you an example a lad i know was afraid two go to america because the plane only had two engines, i am not messing he was certain unless it had 4 engines it would not be safe because if one engine went the plane would not make it on the other one! People seem to have a similar idea with Type 2 unless they can pull in on a hard shoulder its not safe. I know its crazy but that is what i am hearing

roadmaster

nordydan wrote: »

Would the N33 to Ardee also qualify?

i think i asked a similar question before and of the posters said it will be upgraded with The N2 Monaghan upgrade

marno21

nordydan wrote: »

Would the N33 to Ardee also qualify?

It would. The N33 will likely be dualled regardless as there are plans to dual Ardee to the border so dualling the N33 would make sense.

Pereplyotchik wrote: »

I would agree in principle with the idea of a retrofit of some of the WS2 routes, but I think that there are many more pressing concerns and many routes that could offer better cost-benefit return for the exchequer and for motorists rather than upgrading roads that are already pretty good.

For example the N84 Galway to Castlebar is a very busy road and one that looks like it will continue to get busier as Galway and Castlebar expand. It's a pretty shocking road in some places but it's rural and there is scope to widen, level off and straighten this road and bypass places like Headford and Ballinrobe, that's just an example of the awful national routes out there, you could throw in a dozen other routes in the west of Ireland alone..

There is a need to upgrade some routes, absolutely, but the choices have to be the right ones rather than the usual parish pump stuff...

The priority at the minute seems to be improving the N60, there are 3 realignments planned for the N60 totalling approx 10km to start over the next year or two.

There are currently no plans to widen the N84.

roadmaster wrote: »

i am sort of all over the place when it comes my opinion on Type Two but when you read this publication by the NRA/TII how can you not think Type 2 is not a good thing

http://www.tiipublications.ie/library/DN-GEO-03059-01.pdf

But funny enough i was talking with some colleagues about this type of road lately who are from a non construction background and they are terrified of driving on them. They have a fear of braking down and no where to go and then getting hit from behind.

Then earlier this week i was on the rooskey road driving along when all of a sudden cars where pulling in to the right lane suddenly. I quickly seen that a car was stopped in the driving lane with no hazard lights . Rightly or wrongly its a 100km road but 90% people are doing 120km and more which leaves little room to react.

If a roll out of these Type 2 roads was to take place another ad campaign like the to use a roundabout should be done. How to use these roads is probably part of the driving test these days anyway.

The Collooney-Castlebaldwin section of N4 is to have emergency laybys fitted at 2.5km intervals. This may be a solution although most stops in the hard shoulder are not needed and would be better off not taking place on the mainline.

Lets not forget also that most of the absolute ****eheaps these 2+2s are replacing also have no hard shoulder and certainly don't have sightlines compliant for a 100km/h road.

loyatemu wrote: »

a lot of drivers treat WS2 as defacto dual-carriageways anyway, driving in the hard shoulder or pulling up behind other traffic and bullying them into the HS. I hate them, they're chaotic, so I'd be all for upgrading some of them. I don't know whether lack of hard shoulders on 2+2 is a significant problem, cars don't break down as much as they used to, but anyone can have a blowout.

This is exactly why I would like to see it done. Most WS2s are 15-16m in width with 2 running lanes, sometimes replacing 6-7m wide roads with 2 running lanes. WS2s provide 10m extra pavement but no extra lanes. May as well make use of what's there.

Many WS2s as you say are an absolute free for all with hard shoulder running, overtaking three abreast, and vehicles stopped in the hard shoulder along with junctions add to this mess.

roadmaster wrote: »

i agree about cars not breaking now as much but i think its a perception issue. Ill give you an example a lad i know was afraid two go to america because the plane only had two engines, i am not messing he was certain unless it had 4 engines it would not be safe because if one engine went the plane would not make it on the other one! People seem to have a similar idea with Type 2 unless they can pull in on a hard shoulder its not safe. I know its crazy but that is what i am hearing

This is a very good example. Twin engine operations along with ETOPS regulations have made flying transatlantic on a twinjet extremely safe, and you see very few 4 engine jets flying across the ocean bar a few legacy A340s and 744s and of course the A380. This is purely due to increased reliability, engines don't fail that much. The same logic which gave us hard shoulders in the first place is now mainly redundant as breakdowns (preventable ones) are becoming rarer and rarer.

Heartbreak Hank

Is the build up of the hard shoulder the same as the running lane on the WS2 schemes or would they need to be excavated and strengthened?

yew_tree

Can the Claremorris / Knock / Charlestown road be upgraded to the 2+2 version we see on the Tuam bypass or would it have to be an entire new road ?

marno21

The NRA had a plan in place to dual the Claremorris/Knock bypass by retrofitting it with 2+2 but it was abandoned during the recession.

10 years later and traffic volumes are climbing back to above Celtic Tiger levels but there isn't a patch on the previous ambition of Transport21. It'll have to be done sooner rather than later if Tuam-Claremorris (suspended) and Knock-Collooney (pre-appraisal/early planning) are completed.