Dog farming for Asian Market

Xcellor

More hypothetical than anything. The eating of dog meat doesn't happen in Ireland but there is a market for it in Asia. If someone was to set up a farm and provide the same level of care as would be afforded sheep/cows/pigs and the slaughter was done humanely in Ireland would there be any legal reasons why such a product couldn't be shipped to foreign markets.

A lot of the issues surrounding dog meat production is the awful conditions dogs have to undergo. Dog meat would be cheaper to produce, is seen as a luxury so would return higher value.

Are there any laws around what is considered an animal suitable to farming with the purpose of killing and eating it and what determines that?

TheBoyConor

I would say even if there were no legally barrier to producing dog meat I would think you would have a much bigger problem when it comes to the social backlash you would face from the community.

Xcellor

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I would say even if there were no legally barrier to producing dog meat I would think you would have a much bigger problem when it comes to the social backlash you would face from the community.

Dogs get eaten regardless but if meat could be produced ethically isn't this an argument for starting production?

Any social backlash would whiff of hypocrisy. Do dogs have more rights than any other animals? What basis do we use to determine that.

Eating dog meat has been around since the pyramids.

weisses

Xcellor wrote: »

Dogs get eaten regardless but if meat could be produced ethically isn't this an argument for starting production?

Any social backlash would whiff of hypocrisy. Do dogs have more rights than any other animals? What basis do we use to determine that.

Eating dog meat has been around since the pyramids.

Don't use the words ethical and breeding dogs in captivity for slaughter in one sentence ... That is hypocrisy at its best.

Del2005

Xcellor wrote: »

Dogs get eaten regardless but if meat could be produced ethically isn't this an argument for starting production?

Any social backlash would whiff of hypocrisy. Do dogs have more rights than any other animals? What basis do we use to determine that.

Eating dog meat has been around since the pyramids.

People aren't logical when it comes to pets or other cute animals. Look at the backlash on the woman who put the cat in a bin vs what happens when a person posts a video of someone being thrown into a bin. Or the campaign not to eat Tuna because Dolphins were getting caught also, no one cared about the Tuna getting killed

Xcellor

weisses wrote: »

Don't use the words ethical and breeding dogs in captivity for slaughter in one sentence ... That is hypocrisy at its best.

But it's OK to breed cows, pigs etc. and slaughter?

If it's judged by society to be ethical and humane in the context of one animal but not another what determines that.

People in Ireland think it's sick and unethical to eat dog meat, people in India think it's sick and unethical to eat cow meat.

Dial Hard

Xcellor wrote: »

People in Ireland think it's sick and unethical to eat dog meat, people in India think it's sick and unethical to eat cow meat.

And I'd wager that if an Indian person set up a beef herd and associated slaughter facilities in India, they'd face a similar backlash to someone doing it for dogs here.

Some things are culturally acceptable in some places and are not elsewhere. It's really not that difficult to understand.

TheBoyConor

Pretty much yeah.

At the end of the day not all animals are equal. And what is considered acceptable to keep as a pet or eat varies considerably by country and culture.

So basically it would not be culturally acceptable to produce dog meat in the west because we value dogs highly as companions. But, on the whole, we do not have the same feelings for pigs or cows or chickens. And as you said, it is completely different in asian and india.
Sure in Asia dogs are very lowly regarded - considered as being slightly more than pest animals.

It's not as simple as just saying an across the board statement of "oh so its ok to eat this but not that, what gives?"

memorystick

They cook the dogs alive as it makes the meat more tender. There mightn't be a market for frozen dog meat. Maybe there could be a live trade?

Bullocks

memorystick wrote: »

They cook the dogs alive as it makes the meat more tender. There mightn't be a market for frozen dog meat. Maybe there could be a live trade?

Surely they don't cook the dogs alive ? How would that even work ?

TheBoyConor

Well I have heard of that and I don't care about culture when it comes to cruelty to animals. Anyone who would do such a thing as boil an animal alive should die screaming. It's horrendous.

And the argument that it makes the meat tender is highly dubious. We know that an animal that is stressed at the time of slaughter will produce tougher meat.

But then the Asians are not exactly known for logic and reason - I mean look at the nonsense they go on with with their chinese "medicine", much of which seems to be based around using parts of highly endangered wild animals on the brink of extinction to make your dick bigger. Seriously hard to have respect for people who engage in such.

weisses

Xcellor wrote: »

But it's OK to breed cows, pigs etc. and slaughter?

If it's judged by society to be ethical and humane in the context of one animal but not another what determines that.

People in Ireland think it's sick and unethical to eat dog meat, people in India think it's sick and unethical to eat cow meat.

Even when thinking about the environment the whole dog breeding for slaughter idea is unethical (carbon footprint etc)

I don't eat meat so for me keeping animals in captivity until they are ready for slaughter is unethical anyway no matter how society try to dictate it to me ... To me there is nothing ethical and humane about it at all

But hey if you want to breed dogs for the Asian market while being ethical and humane go ahead but could you explain how you will run the farm while looking out for the dogs needs and wellbeing and still make a decent profit at the end of the line ? I mean cages are a no no ... there would be a lot of poop scoops involved ... Just pitch the whole idea

Pelvis

TheBoyConor wrote: »

But then the Asians are not exactly known for logic and reason - I mean look at the nonsense they go on with with their chinese "medicine", much of which seems to be based around using parts of highly endangered wild animals on the brink of extinction to make your dick bigger. Seriously hard to have respect for people who engage in such.

That's racism.

blue5000

Mod note This is a sensitive issue, thread closed temporarily while we discuss it.

We are going to allow this to re-open, BUT keep it on topic, this thread will be monitored and cards will be dealt out at any hint of trolling WUM, etc. I recommend that new people to the forum read the charter first. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057309495

Defunkd

It wouldn't be feasible to breed dogs to export to the Chinese market live from Ireland. There is a lot more meat and value in a cow than in a dog. But seeing as there is a sizeable Chinese population in Ireland, there could be a niche market here for your enterprise.


Regarding the issue of cooking live animals: a travel magazine i read in the 90's had a disturbing story of a Chinese or Japanese rest. in Asia that had monkey brain on the menu. The chimp was sedated but had its head forced into a hole in the table (from under the table); skull removed and vinegars and sauces poured over its brain and the guests pick away while the monkey is still alive.
Disturbing if true but the Chinese are known for eating anything, so i accept it.

TheBoyConor

WTF? I hope that story you read is not true! If it is true then I doubt that it is a cultural thing that is common - more likely to be a weird niche or fantasy played out by a small number of deviants. Seriously messed up.

I any event that is beyond weird not to mention risky as hell. I wouldn't be surprised if some of those people ended up dying of some sort of vCJD or BSE like prion disease.

gozunda

Xcellor wrote: »

More hypothetical than anything. The eating of dog meat doesn't happen in Ireland but there is a market for it in Asia. If someone was to set up a farm and provide the same level of care as would be afforded sheep/cows/pigs and the slaughter was done humanely in Ireland would there be any legal reasons why such a product couldn't be shipped to foreign markets.

A lot of the issues surrounding dog meat production is the awful conditions dogs have to undergo. Dog meat would be cheaper to produce, is seen as a luxury so would return higher value.

Are there any laws around what is considered an animal suitable to farming with the purpose of killing and eating it and what determines that?

OP - much of what you posted makes little sense tbh. So a couple of questions on this topic before answering the above.

1. Do you eat meat?

2. Why select dog as a species?

3. If done and exported back to Asian countries- how would that make sense with competing with low cost local producers there?

4. Why would it be a 'luxury' product there?

Nekarsulm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

But then the Asians are not exactly known for logic and reason - I mean look at the nonsense they go on with with their chinese "medicine", much of which seems to be based around using parts of highly endangered wild animals on the brink of extinction to make your dick bigger. Seriously hard to have respect for people who engage in such.

I wouldn't dismiss those beliefs out of hand, though.
Is it any different to an Irish person getting "the cure of the sprain or "the cure " of bleeding.
Plenty of people on this forum would have experiences of such things working, both on themselves and farm animals.

It's not like a placebo effect either, the cow dosent know she's getting the "cure" .

spurious

Would cooking an animal alive not result in lots of adrenalin being released thus making the meat inedible?

Summer In the City

Dogs are already farmed in Ireland. You will make far more euro per kg selling Fiona and Enda a Bichon Frise for the kids than trying to farm them for meat.

donegal.

they don't cook the animal alive.

there have been stories of tenderising the meat before slaughter but its not the norm.


would you be able to export the animals live? I'd imagine you'd have a hard time finding a factory in ireland that would process them for you.

TheBoyConor

Nekarsulm wrote: »

I wouldn't dismiss those beliefs out of hand, though.
Is it any different to an Irish person getting "the cure of the sprain or "the cure " of bleeding.
Plenty of people on this forum would have experiences of such things working, both on themselves and farm animals.

It's not like a placebo effect either, the cow dosent know she's getting the "cure" .

No it is not any different to those irish "cures" you suggest. You are quite correct.
However, that doesn't legitimise the eastern "medicine" in any way - those Irish "cures" are equally dubious and based on a similar level of quackery and sacrifices to the fairy rings as is the chinese medicine is based on "chi" and energy and life forces and similar make beleive.

gozunda

Xcellor wrote: »

Dogs get eaten regardless but if meat could be produced ethically isn't this an argument for starting production?
Any social backlash would whiff of hypocrisy. Do dogs have more rights than any other animals? What basis do we use to determine that.
Eating dog meat has been around since the pyramids.

Your basic presumptions are incorrect. Dog is not eaten in this country. Beef is not eaten in parts of India. But why not dogs ? Well at one basic level it relates to the fact that dogs are carnivores and as a rule humans traditionally don't eat carnivores as this carries some risk with regard to protein type and other disease transference between species.

See: https://phys.org/news/2017-12-carnivores-carnivore-carcasses-transmits-diseases.html

Other reasons may include preference, religious and historical practice. Yes and I do know dogs are eaten in certain parts of the world- but the majority of countries do not as a rule .

Cultural practices do not negate a countries social norms - they work to reinforce them. Therefore there is no inherent 'hypocrisy' in any such societal preferences.

All animals have specific rights under Irish welfare legislation (See Animal Welfare Act 2013). That is not an area for argument. What species do we choose to eat them when they are dead?. That is a different matter entirely.

Your appeal to tradition up to and including the present day is only valid for certain cultures such as parts of Asia and not here. It is a fallacy when applied to the majority of other countries and as far as I am aware dogs were never part of the average diet in ancient egypt.

I suggest your best bet is to redirect your enquirey to the DAFM.

Best of luck with that ...

memorystick

Mod snip. Off topic and contrary to Irish animal welfare regulations. Thanks GC

memorystick

That's how they cook certain animals out there. Not much respect for life.

Tranceypoo

Defunkd wrote:

Regarding the issue of cooking live animals: a travel magazine i read in the 90's had a disturbing story of a Chinese or Japanese rest. in Asia that had monkey brain on the menu. The chimp was sedated but had its head forced into a hole in the table (from under the table); skull removed and vinegars and sauces poured over its brain and the guests pick away while the monkey is still alive. Disturbing if true but the Chinese are known for eating anything, so i accept it.

I think Gerry Ryan did a piece about this on his radio show and I'm nearly sure there are videos online somewhere, mot something I would be watching however.

endacl

blue5000 wrote: »

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shaunr68

Dial Hard wrote: »

And I'd wager that if an Indian person set up a beef herd and associated slaughter facilities in India, they'd face a similar backlash to someone doing it for dogs here.

Some things are culturally acceptable in some places and are not elsewhere. It's really not that difficult to understand.

You're right, indeed they face a rather extreme backlash, often being beaten to death by the cow worshippers. Seems to be a regular occurrence over there.

In the report below a dairy farmer was murdered by a mob!

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/04/mob-kills-muslim-man-transporting-cows-india-170405135636103.html

Genghis Cant

endacl wrote: »

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WUM = Wind Up Merchant

mf240

Heard those Asian sausages are very tasty. There supposed to be the dogs bollocks.

Bogwoppit

The feed conversion rate to produce growth would be pretty terrible in dogs. Much better to put your feed into pigs which have a relatively good conversion rate.
I think pigs convert at around 6:1, not as good as chickens though at about 2.5:1.
Nothing comes close to fish though which can be as low as 0.6kg of feed to a kilo of growth!
At a guess I’d say dogs would almost definitely be above 10 making it unviable with the restrictions on feed ingredients in the EU (quite sensible rules).
You’d have to get a serious premium on the meat and I doubt that there’s a market for it.

Who2

It’s not going to work, I’ve been to restaurants that serve dog and you can buy a plate of dog meat for pennies in most of these places in Asia. They aren’t stripping down st Bernard’s either, there little rats of things like starved mongrels that you’d wonder where you’d get enough to cut a rasher even off them. How does someone think they are going to produce dogs, ship them over and sell for less than a bag of chips to an area where the people just can’t afford it.

fritzelly

Are you asking hypothetically if you could do this in Ireland? If so then no, dogs are not food stock and are protected
Wasn't some guy jailed for that?

If you had seen some of the conditions they keep dogs in for the purpose of food in certain countries you wouldn't even be asking.

archer22

Just a few points...Korea is the country where Dog eating is most common and accepted.

In China it is still legal but there is growing opposition to it, including incidents like running trucks carrying Dog meat off the road and calls for its prohibition...it will quite likely be illegal there in the not too distant future.The younger generation in particular are against the practice.
Dog meat eating is no longer widespread in China but rather confined to a few areas.

In the Philippines Dog meat trade is completely banned and a serious criminal offence.

In Japan Dogs are not eaten.

gozunda

fritzelly wrote: »

Are you asking hypothetically if you could do this in Ireland? If so then no, dogs are not food stock and are protected
Wasn't some guy jailed for that?
If you had seen some of the conditions they keep dogs in for the purpose of food in certain countries you wouldn't even be asking.

I'll think you will find that the OP is a vegan. See:
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057809919/1/#post105320543

In the absence of the the poster coming back and answering the questions I asked about that posters first post here - I find the posts disingenuous and fairly pathetic tbh in that this particular vegan felt the need to come over here to the F&F forum and imply they are setting up some type of farming enterprise in Ireland but then start sounding off about 'whiffs of hypocrisy' ethics etc etc

Whatever the reasoning I've defintly noticed a definite rise in the number of such posters on boards in the last while. So far this year I've came across

- a Vegan who was found copying and pasting some complete pro-vegan website content as their 'opinion' on how evil farming is.

-Another who claimed farmers were "imprisoning torturing slaughtering" animals but could not explain what they meant by that in relation to actual farming practices here

- and another one who when it was pointed out to them that their 'facts' about farming in Ireland didn't stand up to scrutiny started calling another poster names!

And then theres vegans going on about how non vegans were claiming that 'vegans are forcing their views on others'!

Well in my experience that is too often true.The fact that a vegan felt the need to start questioning posters here about why we breed / eat cows' etc 'but dont eat dog' bs. Happily for us - such idiotic posts are exactly that.

fritzelly

@gozunda

Damn, missed that one
You forgot the vegan who was outraged about RTE's coverage of being a vegan and someone trying it but not liking it

memorystick

Just because they post in a vegan thread doesn't make them a vegan. Not everyone who watches lesbian porn is a lesbian.

fritzelly

memorystick wrote: »

Just because they post in a vegan thread doesn't make them a vegan. Not everyone who watches lesbian porn is a lesbian.

:eek:

gozunda

memorystick wrote: »

Just because they post in a vegan thread doesn't make them a vegan. Not everyone who watches lesbian porn is a lesbian.

Really?

The thread below was created by the OP and is entitled as "First Christmas as Vegan" looking for advice on his plant based diet!

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057809919/1/#post105320543

I suggest you look up a well known piece of vegan propaganda "speciesism / specist" - supposedly along the line of of racism but for animals - which is often used by vegans against non vegans as why they eat "cows but not dogs"...

Now don't get me wrong not all vegans are the same but I do have to ask - Memory - are you a vegan or a ....?

Birdnuts

memorystick wrote: »

Just because they post in a vegan thread doesn't make them a vegan. Not everyone who watches lesbian porn is a lesbian.

Quote of the day right there:D

grassroot1

Why is this thread still open?

Genghis Cant

grassroot1 wrote: »

Why is this thread still open?

Sometimes the easiest thing to do is with the stroke of a pen or click of a mouse to close something.
But the easiest thing is not always the correct thing to do.
I think, and this is my own opinion, that prohibition rarely works. I think, we have a calibre of poster on here more than capable of debating many and varied issues.
I enjoy the debate. Rarely am I let down by the quality of debate offered here by many regular posters.
I think they're more than capable of seeing through the bullsh1t that is often introduced as 'fact'.
We are after all a discussion forum. We discuss.
Once it's relevant and civil the discussion goes on. Sometimes running aground, sometimes staying afloat.

Terms and conditions apply as always :-)

Panjandrums

This post has been deleted.

Summer In the City

Panjandrums wrote: »

Dogs for slaughter isn't viable.
Donkeys on the other hand may be viable in the future for the Asian markets.
There isn't much research into commercial donkey breeding but there are several farms being set up in China at the moment.

It's a good point. The horse scandal is something I thought was funny. The country was up in arms over it but were probably buying horse sausages on their Key Camp holidays every July by accident.

gozunda

Panjandrums wrote: »

Dogs for slaughter isn't viable.
Donkeys on the other hand may be viable in the future for the Asian markets.
There isn't much research into commercial donkey breeding but there are several farms being set up in China at the moment.

Unfortunately- like Rhino horn and Tiger bits - it never works out well where China is involved


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-41524710

Ireland has welfare standards that these countries don't ...

patsy_mccabe

I was in a restaurant once where fish was served live on the plate with it's sides filleted and ready to eat.

ganmo

for this to become anyway of a possibility there'd have to be a rake a legislation changed.
dog food is exempt from feed traceability meaning any shop can sell it without registering with the dept.

grassroot1

Genghis Cant wrote: »

Sometimes the easiest thing to do is with the stroke of a pen or click of a mouse to close something.
But the easiest thing is not always the correct thing to do.
I think, and this is my own opinion, that prohibition rarely works. I think, we have a calibre of poster on here more than capable of debating many and varied issues.
I enjoy the debate. Rarely am I let down by the quality of debate offered here by many regular posters.
I think they're more than capable of seeing through the bullsh1t that is often introduced as 'fact'.
We are after all a discussion forum. We discuss.
Once it's relevant and civil the discussion goes on. Sometimes running aground, sometimes staying afloat.

Terms and conditions apply as always :-)

yes fair enough, however this is the farming and forestry forum. No section of Irish farming engages in the production of dog meat therefore it has no relevance on this forum. I do not argue with your assertion that debate should be allowed I do however think that this "debate" is in the wrong forum.
In short never start an intelligent conversation with an idiot

Xcellor

I am a vegan since last summer but I didn't change due to ethical reasons. It was at the time purely health related.

Different cultures farm different animals, different cultures elevate one animal over another but they are all animals.

I posted on a farming forum because I was genuinely interested around the legality and whether anything goes when it comes to farming providing level of care, food traceability, ethical slaughter are applied.

I chose dog but it could have been any other animal that isn't human but could be used as a food source and farmed for the production of meat.

Dakota Dan

I'd say the op was inspired by the old woman at the start of this video.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=215s&v=lyt3AGug0Y4

Note how she lies about what the waitress said when she starts talking to the patrons.

Nekarsulm

memorystick wrote: »

Not everyone who watches lesbian porn is a lesbian.

I've even heard that some of those girls aren't even lesbian! :eek: :eek:
Where is the Government and the Trading Standards people when you need them?