Civil Service Increments

DubChie18

I work in PSSC and i was due an increment but has been deferred by peoplepoint due to my sick leave. But i was under the impression that your performance management (PMDS) can Affect increments and NOT SICK LEAVE.

wench

Circular 9/2010 mentions that sick leave can affect increments, but doesn't specify how.
Ask peoplepoint what circular or notice they are implementing this under.

per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/Circular-9-2010.pdf

Kimbot

Excessive sick leave will effect your increments. How many days did you take in the year, certified or uncertified?

DubChie18

jonnycivic wrote: »

Excessive sick leave will effect your increments. How many days did you take in the year, certified or uncertified?

According to cpsu/forsa rep and branch rep that they can't stop increment over sick. There's a few sick days due to admission to hospital

love_love

Peoplepoint make no decisions. They act on behalf of HR units, in line with circulars. Bottom line, speak to your HR.

Ursus Horribilis

DubChie18 wrote: »

According to cpsu/forsa rep and branch rep that they can't stop increment over sick. There's a few sick days due to admission to hospital

What sort of leave did you take for that?

DubChie18

sick leave

Ursus Horribilis

I'm sure you know the answer to the question should have been either certified or uncertified.

DubChie18

it was certified sick leave

Kimbot

Are you on probation?

Sir Ophiuchus

Could it be that you took so much sick leave some of it counted as unpaid and nonpensionable service, and your increment date has been bumped forward as a result?

In other words, are you not getting your increment this year, or are you getting it later than expected?

Ursus Horribilis

How many days of sick - certified and uncertified - have you taken in the past year?

yabadabado

DubChie18 wrote: »

According to cpsu/forsa rep and branch rep that they can't stop increment over sick. There's a few sick days due to admission to hospital

They are incorrect. Increments can and are stopped because of sick leave. Certified and uncertified both affect it.
Usually its just put under review for 6 months.

You can apply to HR to get the leave struck off under certain circumstances but its Medical ref. who makes that decision iirc.

skearnsot

Can somebody PLEASE explain to me what analogous grades are

Squatter

skearnsot wrote: »

Can somebody PLEASE explain to me what analogous grades are

People working in other areas of the CS whose duties are considered to be equivalent to those of whatever the 'lead' or 'marker' grade is and who are therefore entitled to the same pay and conditions of employment. Often the same job, same recruitment criteria and process, but a different title.

An example would be the post of Auditor in the C&AG's office which is (or was) analogous to HEO.

skearnsot

Squatter wrote: »

People working in other areas of the CS whose duties are considered to be equivalent to those of whatever the 'lead' or 'marker' grade is and who are therefore entitled to the same pay and conditions of employment. Often the same job, same recruitment criteria and process, but a different title.

An example would be the post of Auditor in the C&AG's office which is (or was) analogous to HEO.

Thanks - I’m in the middle of trying to transfer from LA to CS - doing all and more of the duties required but they won’t recognise my service (14 years with LA) as the local authority have made it 93% of a grade- go figure - it’s meltin me head & very upsetting

beauf

I don't think they like transfers in getting ahead of them

Squatter

skearnsot wrote: »

Thanks - I’m in the middle of trying to transfer from LA to CS - doing all and more of the duties required but they won’t recognise my service (14 years with LA) as the local authority have made it 93% of a grade- go figure - it’s meltin me head & very upsetting

Is your problem point on the salary scale or seniority, or both?

skearnsot

Squatter wrote: »

Is your problem point on the salary scale or seniority, or both?

It’s the fact that it’s not analogous or at least not recognised as analogous - Iv tried to transfer before several times and Iv been told that my grade is basically makey uppy so doesn’t exist

Squatter

skearnsot wrote: »

It’s the fact that it’s not analogous or at least not recognised as analogous - Iv tried to transfer before several times and Iv been told that my grade is basically makey uppy so doesn’t exist

Is your Union any help? (I anticipate a negative reply!)

The_Conductor

skearnsot wrote: »

It’s the fact that it’s not analogous or at least not recognised as analogous - Iv tried to transfer before several times and Iv been told that my grade is basically makey uppy so doesn’t exist

Its known as grade parity or relativity- and the relativity can be set at any point- depending on the reference grade. Its quite common across the public sector- where certain grades have 'relativity' to a civil service grade- rather than parity. It also works the other way too- there are 3 different Departments that have grades which are relative to the Local Authority Grade 3 Engineer- and the relativity can be positive or negative- (over or under 1.0).

There are also some grades which allegedly have parity with civil service grades (such as the EO grade equivalent in the local authorities) however- they have up to 6 days extra annual leave- more than the EO in the civil service has (down to 4 for civil servants whose annual leave year commences after 1st Jan 2018)- reflecting the manner in which traditionally local authority grades didn't work holy days- whereas civil servants did- and when the local authority staff were told they had to work those days- the days were incremented onto their annual leave- but not for anyone else).

Then there is the whole 'superannuation transfer network' which has detailed rules governing how superannuation rights accrued in one part of the public sector (including those parts which are wholly or partially 'commercial' in nature) are dealt with when you move to another part of the public sector (including the civil service) and it also addresses the manner in which some parts of the public sector accrue their superannuation rights in a different manner to others (so a civil servant needs 40 years service earned at the rate of 2/80s per annum to qualify for a full civil service pension- whereas some other public servants may earn up to 4/80ths of a pension per year of service). I'm not going to say anything else about the transfer network.

As a generalisation- when moving from one public sector post to another (even from open competition)- your current pay is taken into account- and you are recruited at the point of salary scale closest to your current salary point- without suffering a cut in pay. This is gross pay mind- not net- and depending on your superannuation (there are several)- and how they are handled in your current employer (particularly for the post 1995 people)- you need to get your local union person to plug the real world figures for you- and keep in mind that recent civil service recruits have significantly reduced superannuation rights- to pre-existing civil servants- but also pay a significantly lower pension deduction......

Something else to consider- flexitime is not ubiquitous in the civil service- and is a privilege, not a right- and is subject to withdrawal subject to business needs, even for COs/EOs/HEOs (AP and higher don't tend to have Flexi).

Don't believe all the stories you hear in the media- you need to deal with the actual facts- as per the current circulars in force and try to understand how they apply to you. Unfortunately Codpearsanra is offline again (its been subsumed into the main government website)- but the unions and Peoplepoint should provide you with copies of the relevant circulars if you request them.

skearnsot

Squatter wrote: »

Is your Union any help? (I anticipate a negative reply!)

As you anticipated - useful as a glass hammer

skearnsot

The_Conductor wrote: »

Its known as grade parity or relativity- and the relativity can be set at any point- depending on the reference grade. Its quite common across the public sector- where certain grades have 'relativity' to a civil service grade- rather than parity. It also works the other way too- there are 3 different Departments that have grades which are relative to the Local Authority Grade 3 Engineer- and the relativity can be positive or negative- (over or under 1.0).

There are also some grades which allegedly have parity with civil service grades (such as the EO grade equivalent in the local authorities) however- they have up to 6 days extra annual leave- more than the EO in the civil service has (down to 4 for civil servants whose annual leave year commences after 1st Jan 2018)- reflecting the manner in which traditionally local authority grades didn't work holy days- whereas civil servants did- and when the local authority staff were told they had to work those days- the days were incremented onto their annual leave- but not for anyone else).

Then there is the whole 'superannuation transfer network' which has detailed rules governing how superannuation rights accrued in one part of the public sector (including those parts which are wholly or partially 'commercial' in nature) are dealt with when you move to another part of the public sector (including the civil service) and it also addresses the manner in which some parts of the public sector accrue their superannuation rights in a different manner to others (so a civil servant needs 40 years service earned at the rate of 2/80s per annum to qualify for a full civil service pension- whereas some other public servants may earn up to 4/80ths of a pension per year of service). I'm not going to say anything else about the transfer network.

As a generalisation- when moving from one public sector post to another (even from open competition)- your current pay is taken into account- and you are recruited at the point of salary scale closest to your current salary point- without suffering a cut in pay. This is gross pay mind- not net- and depending on your superannuation (there are several)- and how they are handled in your current employer (particularly for the post 1995 people)- you need to get your local union person to plug the real world figures for you- and keep in mind that recent civil service recruits have significantly reduced superannuation rights- to pre-existing civil servants- but also pay a significantly lower pension deduction......

Something else to consider- flexitime is not ubiquitous in the civil service- and is a privilege, not a right- and is subject to withdrawal subject to business needs, even for COs/EOs/HEOs (AP and higher don't tend to have Flexi).

Don't believe all the stories you hear in the media- you need to deal with the actual facts- as per the current circulars in force and try to understand how they apply to you. Unfortunately Codpearsanra is offline again (its been subsumed into the main government website)- but the unions and Peoplepoint should provide you with copies of the relevant circulars if you request them.

Thanks conductor- but we are 93% of a clerical officer plus 20% shift allowance - so far nobody will take us on and recognise our service or our bastardised grade! Unions are supposedly trying (for the last 2 years) to sort something out! Nobody seems to know where this nonsense grade came out of but it’s just pathetic plus we don’t get any LSIs

The_Conductor

skearnsot wrote: »

Thanks conductor- but we are 93% of a clerical officer plus 20% shift allowance - so far nobody will take us on and recognise our service or our bastardised grade! Unions are supposedly trying (for the last 2 years) to sort something out! Nobody seems to know where this nonsense grade came out of but it’s just pathetic plus we don’t get any LSIs

Logic would dictate that your equivalent civil service grade is the CO grade (without the shift allowance)- at the point closest your gross salary on your current scale- without any reference to shift allowances etc (which tend to be personal to post, rather than personal to holder- and do not tend to be transferable- which you should confirm with Forsa).

So- depending on your current salary- you'd be recruited at a point reflecting the salary closest to your current salary, without suffering a reduction in pay (but this is the actual salary- and does not take any shift allowances or other allowances into account).

Also- the LSIs- or lack thereof- isn't really a factor- as you'd have to mark time on the civil service scale- before you got your first increment- and any LSIs etc- would only be after the regular 3 years on the top of scale etc.

You need to talk to someone in Forsa who is familiar with the salary scales and the manner in which they apply to pre-existing public sector employees who move other to the civil service. You also need to be look at the pros and cons of the move- its entirely possible you may be financially better off- or have additional annual leave- in your current post- than you have in the civil service- despite the fact that the civil service post is nominally paid at a higher rate than the LA post.

Also- keep the shift allowance in mind- there are some civil service posts with shift allowances- but they are few and far between- it would be a remarkable stretch of the imagination to think you'll get one.

The_Conductor

Ps- your service- providing it is LA service will be recognised- and will count towards superannuation rights- as per the pre-determined formulas for calculating those rights (and assuming you have minimum service too- which used to be 2 years- I'm not sure of the current setup).

As for seniority etc- thats more for the local authority these days- and is no longer recognised in the civil service- pretty much without exception. The only manner in which it ever has any effect in the civil service- is for the purpose of higher and lower salary scales- and even then, its application is a form of witchcraft..........

bobbysands81

DubChie18 wrote: »

According to cpsu/forsa rep and branch rep that they can't stop increment over sick. There's a few sick days due to admission to hospital

It is an accepted practice that increments are stopped for sick leave.

Some Depts even tried to adopt a policy of 14 sick days as being enough (56 sick days in a 4 year period can stop you going for promotion or transfer so 14 is the annual amount by of days multiplied by 4 to reach 56).

yabadabado

bobbysands81 wrote: »

It is an accepted practice that increments are stopped for sick leave.

Some Depts even tried to adopt a policy of 14 sick days as being enough (56 sick days in a 4 year period can stop you going for promotion or transfer so 14 is the annual amount by of days multiplied by 4 to reach 56).

Increments are regularly stopped/postponed because of sick leave. I'm sure it's all in the contract of employment.

skearnsot

The_Conductor wrote: »

Logic would dictate that your equivalent civil service grade is the CO grade (without the shift allowance)- at the point closest your gross salary on your current scale- without any reference to shift allowances etc (which tend to be personal to post, rather than personal to holder- and do not tend to be transferable- which you should confirm with Forsa).

So- depending on your current salary- you'd be recruited at a point reflecting the salary closest to your current salary, without suffering a reduction in pay (but this is the actual salary- and does not take any shift allowances or other allowances into account).

Also- the LSIs- or lack thereof- isn't really a factor- as you'd have to mark time on the civil service scale- before you got your first increment- and any LSIs etc- would only be after the regular 3 years on the top of scale etc.

You need to talk to someone in Forsa who is familiar with the salary scales and the manner in which they apply to pre-existing public sector employees who move other to the civil service. You also need to be look at the pros and cons of the move- its entirely possible you may be financially better off- or have additional annual leave- in your current post- than you have in the civil service- despite the fact that the civil service post is nominally paid at a higher rate than the LA post.

Also- keep the shift allowance in mind- there are some civil service posts with shift allowances- but they are few and far between- it would be a remarkable stretch of the imagination to think you'll get one.

The post I’m waiting to hear from in the civil service is shift based and has shift allowance - however there is a very high chance that my 14 years service at my present “grade” will not and according to my forsa rep doesn’t HAVE to be taken into consideration!
I was also under the impression that shift allowance is rexkonable pay???
(my ex colleague moved to this section of the civil service that Iv applied to and they wouldn’t recognise her as a CO)

The_Conductor

skearnsot wrote: »

The post I’m waiting to hear from in the civil service is shift based and has shift allowance - however there is a very high chance that my 14 years service at my present “grade” will not and according to my forsa rep doesn’t HAVE to be taken into consideration!
I was also under the impression that shift allowance is rexkonable pay???
(my ex colleague moved to this section of the civil service that Iv applied to and they wouldn’t recognise her as a CO)

No, not all shift allowances are considered to be reckonable pay- it depends on the post. You need to talk to Personnel from the relevant Department and try to get answers- however, the fact that a previous colleague tried and failed to be recognised in a substantive grade- would suggest they are not going to break this precedent with you (as there would be knock-on ramifications for others- including your colleague).

Talk to Personnel- and talk to someone in the Union who has a good grasp of payscales and public sector mobility issues.

skearnsot

yabadabado wrote: »

Increments are regularly stopped/postponed because of sick leave. I'm sure it's all in the contract of employment.

Aren’t increments granted/declined at manager’s discretion? They can be stopped/postponed because of illness yes. in our section though it was extreme (bicycle accident that left a fella almost dead) his increment was postponed for 3 months

yabadabado

skearnsot wrote: »

Aren’t increments granted/declined at manager’s discretion? They can be stopped/postponed because of illness yes. in our section though it was extreme (bicycle accident that left a fella almost dead) his increment was postponed for 3 months

It's HR who decide afaik.
In the case of the fella you mention I'm surprised that wasn't overturned on appeal. A letter from doctor and a short outline on a letter would usually suffice in a case like that.

skearnsot

yabadabado wrote: »

It's HR who decide afaik.
In the case of the fella you mention I'm surprised that wasn't overturned on appeal. A letter from doctor and a short outline on a letter would usually suffice in a case like that.

He hadn’t finished probation when the accident happened

yabadabado

skearnsot wrote: »

He hadn’t finished probation when the accident happened

That was probably the reason, a normal increment would have gone ahead, probationary period is stricter.

Just a case of keeping the head down for an extra 3 months.