London Irish - Time to buy a fifth province

Rigor Mortis

According to the London Times, London Irish may be on the market. Is it time that the IRFU considered buying the LI share in the Premiership. It would make sense if at some stage they move to a fixed team system with no relegation.

Another development province for players and coaches. It would also get around the logjam of players who need to leave their province but dont want to move to a rival.

Scotland have looked at something similar with Worcester

irishfan9

No, it's not.

Wegians89

Think it’s potentially a good one idea, would prefer if London Irish then joined in the pro14 in its next expansion

Exclamation Marc

Not a chance of it happening.

Too much of a financial commitment, too much risk over the premiership status and the current model of strength in depth is working wonders in Ireland at the moment to consider taking talented players away from academies/development to prop up another team that wouldn't be good enough to compete abroad.

Cutting a layer off this depth and moving it to an English team makes no sense. Provinces would struggle when injuries or absences occur and all you would have to show for it is a glorified B-team in the English league system.

I doubt the money is there for the necessary level of investment. And keep in mind these English clubs need money pumped into them to keep up with their rivals.

BBDBB

why not?

the timing is pretty good

the Pro 14 has shown that a cross international borders league can work

Irish rugby is riding high, fierce competition for places, the province academies are starting to really produce some talented lads coming through

The term "fifth province" may be a bit politically laden, but why not expand our horizons, even if it gets blocked or its decided not to proceed, I think its worth exploring as a concept

LeinsterDub

English clubs have been fined for allowing Welsh players play outside the international window. How do you think our system would work within that kind of system?

lawred2

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

According to the London Times, London Irish may be on the market. Is it time that the IRFU considered buying the LI share in the Premiership. It would make sense if at some stage they move to a fixed team system with no relegation.

Another development province for players and coaches. It would also get around the logjam of players who need to leave their province but dont want to move to a rival.

Scotland have looked at something similar with Worcester

would there not be some sort of conflict of interest blocking that?

LeinsterDub

LeinsterDub wrote: »

English clubs have been fined for allowing Welsh players play outside the international window. How do you think our system would work within that kind of system?

Very good point. Players would have to be released during the off-weeks in the 6N for example. I know he won't be here forever but Schmidt just wouldn't select those players under those circumstances.

Bridge93

The money needed to keep them even moderately competitive would severely hamper the 4 provinces. The fans won't buy into it either

Buer

It's not feasible. Aside from the massive financial commitment (which the IRFU could not take on), there are administrative aspects such as London Irish being governed by an entity outside of the IRFU jurisdiction which would make it a minefield.

Given that the academy and development set up in Ireland is thriving generally, it would be madness to sink a huge amount into a team that are about to be relegated and compete in a league that is filled with teams which are generally weaker than the provincial A sides.

If the IRFU wants to approach a private investor about expanding the Pro14 to include a London based team and bringing LI into the fold, that's another story.

why not just get rid of the provinces and have five or six club teams in Ireland?

it would effectively be the same thing.

Aegir

Aegir wrote: »

why not just get rid of the provinces

Because absolutely nobody wants that, bar maybe yourself?

No real need it's not like we have 4 powerhouses and we're kicking players out. Leicester have possibly to many players coming through but we have 3 other provinces for those players to go to

GavMan

Melissa Yummy Penicillin wrote: »

No real need it's not like we have 4 powerhouses and we're kicking players out. Leicester have possibly to many players coming through but we have 3 other provinces for those players to go to

Agreed. Ulster are only a cut above Treviso these days. Lets fix that first

arsebiscuits1

The Aviva Premiership seems a ticking time bomb nowadays. Really concerned the direction they're heading.

I'd say steer well clear

joseywhales

I like the idea of annexation of English clubs into the pro 14. They can play a higher standard of rugby there and we can get access to the english tv market.

Rigor Mortis

GavMan wrote: »

Agreed. Ulster are only a cut above Treviso these days. Lets fix that first

That's a management not a personnel or finance problem

case885

Surely the RFU will invest like the WRU did with the dragons and use it for centrally contracted players.

irishbucsfan

We already have a development province, they’re called Ulster

stephen_n

Why the hell would the IRFU want to stretch it’s budgets and thus weaken the 4 provinces? As it is we are importing players at each of the provinces. So spread the player pool even thinner and the budget too, to what end? How would this benefit the Irish setup in any way?

Former Former

London Irish haven't been meaningfully Irish in about 20 years, and besides, we don't have enough players to justify a proper fifth side.

I think the reality is that most of the guys who end up plying their trade out foreign do so because they're not really good enough for their home province. There's been a few who've bucked that trend (Beirne and Farrell being the obvious ones), but the current model of "go abroad, prove your worth, come home" is working fine IMO. Let other clubs take the risks, we'll reap the benefits.

thomond2006

I'd rather the money I spend on Irish Rugby stays on this island tbh.

The Lost Sheep

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

According to the London Times, London Irish may be on the market. Is it time that the IRFU considered buying the LI share in the Premiership. It would make sense if at some stage they move to a fixed team system with no relegation.

Another development province for players and coaches. It would also get around the logjam of players who need to leave their province but dont want to move to a rival.

Scotland have looked at something similar with Worcester

It would be a waste of money and the money spent would be far better spent on developing the clubs and "non traditional" schools in the country.

BBDBB wrote: »

why not?

the timing is pretty good

the Pro 14 has shown that a cross international borders league can work

Irish rugby is riding high, fierce competition for places, the province academies are starting to really produce some talented lads coming through

The term "fifth province" may be a bit politically laden, but why not expand our horizons, even if it gets blocked or its decided not to proceed, I think its worth exploring as a concept

Because we dont utilise our current 4 provinces already. Why add a fifth team. RFU wouldnt allow it/want it.

Former Former wrote: »

London Irish haven't been meaningfully Irish in about 20 years, and besides, we don't have enough players to justify a proper fifth side.

I think the reality is that most of the guys who end up plying their trade out foreign do so because they're not really good enough for their home province. There's been a few who've bucked that trend (Beirne and Farrell being the obvious ones), but the current model of "go abroad, prove your worth, come home" is working fine IMO. Let other clubs take the risks, we'll reap the benefits.

Amateur club is very irish but pro side has came back to being more irish in recent years.

salmocab

Maybe if some Irish millionaire with no sense buys in there could be loan deals done on occasion to suit ourselves, but the irfu have no need to spend money abroad

If the club were to join the Pro14 I think that's the only possible way something like this would approach being feasible. But I don't think it's feasible at all really.

Dravokivich

It wasn't too long ago that the media (at least online) were pushing question marks around Connacht's viability looking to press it was a burden for the irfu hampering the other provinces. If there was any truth in it then, why should they be looking to expand?

Dravokivich

Dravokivich wrote: »

It wasn't too long ago that the media (at least online) were pushing question marks around Connacht's viability looking to press it was a burden for the irfu hampering the other provinces. If there was any truth in it then, why should they be looking to expand?

Because circumstances change? That was years ago.

Of all the reasons not to do this, this isn't one of them.

thomond2006

If LI were relegated and then the Premiership was ringfenced then why not invite them to Pro14?

Former Former

Dravokivich wrote: »

It wasn't too long ago that the media (at least online) were pushing question marks around Connacht's viability looking to press it was a burden for the irfu hampering the other provinces. If there was any truth in it then, why should they be looking to expand?

What??

"The media" were pushing to disband Connacht?

When did this happen?

daheff

i think it could be a good idea. Especially if it could be done on a basis where a lot of cash does not need to be injected to them every season.


Would mean that we would then have 5 'clubs/provinces' to have players playing at.

Whether we like it or not, English Premiership and French Top14 are big draws to players...and will continue to get bigger as their money increases.

At least this way IRFU could offer top players who want to play abroad an opportunity to play in London for LI....and get to keep control over them.

Sangre

daheff wrote: »

At least this way IRFU could offer top players who want to play abroad an opportunity to play in London for LI....and get to keep control over them.

They would have limited control of players so long as LI remained in Aviva Permiership.

anotherjohndoe

Connacht have had multiple viability assessments as a professional team in recent memory and has come very close to being disbanded on more than one occasion. You're unlikely to see real numbers written down on paper for them but Connacht will definitely have a set of targets for attendance and ticket revenue that they need to exceed in order to retain their current IRFU funding levels. The primary rationale for continuing that investment has been that a fourth province provided the extra professional contracts within the country required to sustain a long-term fit pool of players for the national squad, but I sincerely doubt the same economics would stack up when going from four to five. If the IRFU are have to cast a critical eye over the future of a provincial side with a long tradition in the game they're certainly not in a position to look at having a fifth overseas "province"

Also, the cost would be enormous. The current Premiership salary cap is £7m per year but by the time you factor in marquee players, academy credits, mid-season injury replacement dispensations, etc. the biggest clubs are spending well in excess of that on their playing squad. With a couple of notable exceptions the Premiership teams are all subsidized by their owners and would accrue large losses over time otherwise.

The other important thing I would factor in is that the various rules about academies, subsidies, player release, etc. are all designed to help the England national team. Why should the IRFU invest their money in that system rather than in Ireland.

thomond2006

thomond2006 wrote: »

If LI were relegated and then the Premiership was ringfenced then why not invite them to Pro14?

I think LI are a Premiership stakeholder, and I don't think they can ringfence it without LI agreeing, and I don't think LI would agree if it was going to put them permanently on the outside of it.

Is this just because they have "Irish" in their name

irishbucsfan

thomond2006 wrote: »

If LI were relegated and then the Premiership was ringfenced then why not invite them to Pro14?

Because they're based in the jurisdiction of the RFU, it would make the RFU a significant player in the Pro 14 as their games would require approval of the RFU, even if London Irish were fully owned by the IRFU.

Maybe the RFU could be convinced to commit to a waiver on that, but I very much doubt it.

thomond2006

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Because they're based in the jurisdiction of the RFU, it would make the RFU a significant player in the Pro 14 as their games would require approval of the RFU, even if London Irish were fully owned by the IRFU.

Maybe the RFU could be convinced to commit to a waiver on that, but I very much doubt it.

I get all that but I think the Pro14 would be all in if a deal could work with a London based team.

Rigor Mortis

Deleted User wrote: »

Is this just because they have "Irish" in their name

No, the original question was because
I believe more and more Irish players will want to move abroad.
I believe that the Irish system of control is worth fighting to keep in some shape
London Irish is likely to be for sale (according to rumour mongering)
Our Scottish cousins are looking at a similar deal
While there would be higher costs, there would also be access to higher revenue
There is a strong precedent, albeit historical, for a decent exile system.
Access to the Premiership might help some of our players and coaches

I'm not totally sold on the idea, but i do think it merits debate.

Rigor Mortis

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

While there would be higher costs, there would also be access to higher revenue

Just on this, apparently there are 2 AP clubs who don't lose money every year, Exeter were one and maybe Leicester or Northampton the other. LI would be a money pit.

Rigor Mortis

Mack Plain Xenophobia wrote: »

Just on this, apparently there are 2 AP clubs who don't lose money every year, Exeter were one and maybe Leicester or Northampton the other. LI would be a money pit.

I thought Gloucester were the other one.

Rigor Mortis

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

I thought Gloucester were the other one.

https://rugbyballs.org/2017/09/22/workers-of-the-world-unite/

Wasps lost £3.8million (this despite a staggering 44% increase in turnover), Harlequins lost £2.2million (how do Harlequins lose that much money with a ground next-door to Twickenham), Newcastle £2.1million (£2.3 the year before), London Irish £1.9million (£1.8million in the previous year), Bath £1.2million (yet another million pound minus for the boys in blue), Sale Sharks £1.1million (see Bath), Gloucester £0.4million, Leicester Tigers, likewise, £0.4million and Worcester Warriors, you know about. For the record, only Exeter Chiefs (£0.9million) and Northampton Saints (£0.6million) were in the black.

Which just leaves Saracens, who, without question, merit a paragraph of their own given the European Champions made a pre-tax loss of £3.3million last year ...

Northampton apparently. The IRFU cannot pay to buy LI and then subsidise them to the tune of €2m per year, just can't.

Neil3030

This actually should be considered. But only in an alternate universe where we have players that are surplus to the requirements of the four provinces, enough in number to make up the core of a playing squad of a fifth team, and the IRFU have some Soviet style authority to deploy these players overseas without dispute, to earn Pro14 journeyman wages while living in one of the most expensive cities in the world, and where these players are not needed by the Irish team outside of international windows, and where the whole project can be husbanded in a manner that ensures a steady flow of income back to the IRFU.

But back in our universe, it should not be considered.

daheff

Sangre wrote: »

They would have limited control of players so long as LI remained in Aviva Permiership.

yes, but isnt limited control better than no control over players who move to the premiership?

Anyways, LI training sessions could double up as impromptu Ireland sessions if there were enough Ireland players there.

Squidgy Black

The IRFU struggles to try and convince players to move players between provinces in Ireland, never mind trying to convince them to uproot everything and move to the UK to play with another team that will essentially be the leftovers of the Irish provinces.

The only thing is, with London Irish inevitably looking like they'll be relegated this season, what way do the international windows work for a championship squad? Do the same rules apply as a premiership club?

irishbucsfan

Squidgy Black wrote: »

The IRFU struggles to try and convince players to move players between provinces in Ireland, never mind trying to convince them to uproot everything and move to the UK to play with another team that will essentially be the leftovers of the Irish provinces.

The only thing is, with London Irish inevitably looking like they'll be relegated this season, what way do the international windows work for a championship squad? Do the same rules apply as a premiership club?

International windows apply to every club in world rugby

Losty Dublin

It wasn't a million years ago when there was serious consideration given towards having LI playing in the Inter Pro's, either as a team of their own or as the bones of an Exiles squad. Back then much of the Shamatuer squad played their ball in England so there was a strategic sense in having a direct link into the Irish set up. Today, well it doesn't bear thinking about.

Squidgy Black

irishbucsfan wrote: »

International windows apply to every club in world rugby

I meant releasing the players for camps etc.

Podge_irl

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

No, the original question was because
I believe more and more Irish players will want to move abroad.

They aren't keen to move abroad just to enjoy the sunnier climes of Reading though. They move abroad for more money and the IRFU aren't going to have a separate salary set up for a club based in England so it would provide no benefit in that regard.

LeinsterDub

Losty Dublin wrote: »

It wasn't a million years ago when there was serious consideration given towards having LI playing in the Inter Pro's, either as a team of their own or as the bones of an Exiles squad. Back then much of the Shamatuer squad played their ball in England so there was a strategic sense in having a direct link into the Irish set up. Today, well it doesn't bear thinking about.

While not a million years ago. 25 plus years ago is a long time ago in Rugby terms

salmocab

I just don’t see any merit in this, we don’t have the players or the money to run another province in a different competition, if players are leaving Ireland it’s for big wages why would irfu pay players more to play outside Ireland. I genuinely don’t see a real upside.

Former Former

Irish players who want to move abroad generally do so for big salaries; that won't be an option in this model.

Irish players who move abroad because they have to are generally not good enough, so a squad full of such players would be getting hammered week in, week out.

And we couldn't sign project players since they wouldn't be able to qualify for Ireland.