Aer Lingus Viscount Crash Tuskar Rock 1968

Mebuntu

I recall vividly that 1968 radio news broadcast on Radio Eireann to the effect that an Aer Lingus flight from Cork was overdue in London.

A new Newstalk documentary was broadcast in three segments this week on the Pat Kenny Show and this was one of the best and most intriguing documentaries I have ever listened to on radio.

Full of just about every ingredient for a thriller/conspiracy, as well as how one particular family has coped over all the years, it can be listened back to on a podcast on newstalk.com. A must listen in my view.

Some of the ingredients for those who are not familiar with this event:

The crash investigator was the same person who had signed off the Viscount's airworthiness cert a few months earlier.

His report never mentioned that the records of a routine maintenance check on the Viscount a few months earlier went missing and were never found.

The general public (including me) being indoctrinated for 30 years that the probable cause was an accidental hit from an RAF drone or missile (that they categorically denied).

No reference to a somewhat similar incident involving another Aer Lingus Viscount on a training mission that crashed 9 months earlier killing the crew or to other previous Viscount crashes.

46 eyewitness reports of the clearly identified Aer Lingus Viscount flying at low level all over counties Wexford and Waterford were ignored/ruled out. (i.e. disbelieved)

Gallant flight crew performing miracles for 32 minutes trying desperately to get the plane under control and land somewhere.

The strange anomaly of ATC tapes that purportedly put the Viscount levelled off at 17,000ft instead of being at that low level for 32 minutes.

Behind all this is, of course, the terrible tragedy that affected so many families.

RadioRetro

There's a service of commemoration tomorrow, the anniversary of the loss of St Phelim, in Rosslare Harbour at 14.30 in the memorial garden.

A cousin by marriage was a cabin crew member on the flight but I had never met her.

TDM900

Yes,it's maintenance history is very strange.
The type was know to have had tailplane issues.

sparrowcar

RadioRetro wrote: »

There's a service of commemoration tomorrow, the anniversary of the loss of St Phelim, in Rosslare Harbour at 14.30 in the memorial garden.

A cousin by marriage was a cabin crew member on the flight but I had never met her.

Anne Kelly? My mother was friends with her and her sister, from the Clontarf area. She said it devastated the country at the time, prob similar to reaction rescue 116 received.

Owryan

During one of the news reports on the tragedy they mentioned that unlike what was the norm for other airlines, Aer Lingus didn't retire the flight number after the crash.

Did they ever give a reason for this? just curious.

EchoIndia

Owryan wrote: »

During one of the news reports on the tragedy they mentioned that unlike what was the norm for other airlines, Aer Lingus didn't retire the flight number after the crash.

Did they ever give a reason for this? just curious.

That is something of a US practice, I think, and driven by media reports that latch onto the flight number. By way of contrast, the BEA Trident crash at Staines in 1972 tended to be referred to as the "Papa India" accident, in reference to the aircraft's registration, G-ARPI.

EchoIndia

Mebuntu wrote: »

I recall vividly that 1968 radio news broadcast on Radio Eireann to the effect that an Aer Lingus flight from Cork was overdue in London.

A new Newstalk documentary was broadcast in three segments this week on the Pat Kenny Show and this was one of the best and most intriguing documentaries I have ever listened to on radio.

Full of just about every ingredient for a thriller/conspiracy, as well as how one particular family has coped over all the years, it can be listened back to on a podcast on newstalk.com. A must listen in my view.

Some of the ingredients for those who are not familiar with this event:

The crash investigator was the same person who had signed off the Viscount's airworthiness cert a few months earlier.

His report never mentioned that the records of a routine maintenance check on the Viscount a few months earlier went missing and were never found.

The general public (including me) being indoctrinated for 30 years that the probable cause was an accidental hit from an RAF drone or missile (that they categorically denied).

No reference to a somewhat similar incident involving another Aer Lingus Viscount on a training mission that crashed 9 months earlier killing the crew or to other previous Viscount crashes.

46 eyewitness reports of the clearly identified Aer Lingus Viscount flying at low level all over counties Wexford and Waterford were ignored/ruled out. (i.e. disbelieved)

Gallant flight crew performing miracles for 32 minutes trying desperately to get the plane under control and land somewhere.

The strange anomaly of ATC tapes that purportedly put the Viscount levelled off at 17,000ft instead of being at that low level for 32 minutes.

Behind all this is, of course, the terrible tragedy that affected so many families.

I have always found it impossible to reconcile the notion of a large airliner descending in a rapid spin over the sea and then the crew recovering it, presumably with aircraft or control damage, flying around at low level for 30 minutes and then still ending up in the sea at the original point where the flight upset had begun. The inquiry commissioned by Mary O'Rourke when Minister for Public Enterprise was conducted long after the original event, when there was little if any primary evidence to work with. Eyewitness statements, even when contemporary with an event, are notoriously unreliable. Recollections decades after the event, no matter how sincerely stated, could hardly be accorded immense value, I would suggest.

As always in these matters, there is value in reading the actual official reports rather than relying too much on a journalist's summation. Here is a link: http://www.aaiu.ie/node/5

ED E

These pods from Pat Kenny are a nice insight into the human side of things.

http://pca.st/kJT0 P1
http://pca.st/WSWz P2
http://pca.st/Jv77 P3

Skyknight

RadioRetro wrote: »

There's a service of commemoration tomorrow, the anniversary of the loss of St Phelim, in Rosslare Harbour at 14.30 in the memorial garden.

A cousin by marriage was a cabin crew member on the flight but I had never met her.

She wouldn't have just received her wings just before the accident by any chance?

tricky D

RadioRetro wrote: »

A cousin by marriage was a cabin crew member on the flight but I had never met her.

Somewhat likewise, the maker of the podcasts is the grandson of one of the crew.

Stovepipe

When the crash was originally investigated, the Department of Transport and Power were the relevant authority, and continued to be so until the IAA was created, so until the separate AAIU were created, air accident investigation was undertaken by the DoT&P and then the IAA and it was usually carried out by a mix of pilots and aircraft engineers employed by the Authority. These days, its the AAIU and still a mix of former airline and military pilots and aircraft engineers, all of whom are trained in air accident investigation. Back then,air accident investigation was carried out by the normal aeronautical inspectors on a who's next basis.......after the third Viscount crash, EI grounded the survivors and sold them off. The crash in Co Meath and the third crash in the UK are rarely mentioned, compared to this crash.

jimmythedivil

I listened to that doc on the PK show too. Very well made and interesting but extremely sad for the families. I always think of it when I fly from Cork to London.

EchoIndia

Stovepipe wrote: »

When the crash was originally investigated, the Department of Transport and Power were the relevant authority, and continued to be so until the IAA was created, so until the separate AAIU were created, air accident investigation was undertaken by the DoT&P and then the IAA and it was usually carried out by a mix of pilots and aircraft engineers employed by the Authority. These days, its the AAIU and still a mix of former airline and military pilots and aircraft engineers, all of whom are trained in air accident investigation. Back then,air accident investigation was carried out by the normal aeronautical inspectors on a who's next basis.......after the third Viscount crash, EI grounded the survivors and sold them off. The crash in Co Meath and the third crash in the UK are rarely mentioned, compared to this crash.

The Viscounts were retired as new short-haul jets came on line, which was very much in line with what other European carriers such as Lufthansa, Air Inter, and BEA did during the same period. Few enough of the Aer Lingus machines went on to other carriers. I'm not sure why but there was probably a glut of the type on the market in any case. The type continued to serve with some carriers (principally British Air Ferries) until the late 1990s. It must be remembered that the rate of airline accidents in the 1960s was way in excess of what we are used to today and Aer Lingus was not the only carrier to lose an aircraft on crew-training. The Tuskar crash is recalled particularly because it was only Aer Lingus's second fatal accident (and there has been none since) and of course because of the indeterminate cause. The conspiracy theories seem to have originated in some rather speculative language in the original report. Accident reports nowadays are written very much in a factual way and there is much less scope for speculation unless there is some good evidence on which to ground it.

IE 222

Was much of the wreckage recovered. Is any or it stored or has it been disposed off by now.

RadioRetro

Skyknight wrote: »

She wouldn't have just received her wings just before the accident by any chance?

No idea, I was 8 and living in Africa at the time.

roundymac

IIRC the Viscounts were scrapped in Dublin because they could not sell them. Every airline wanted jets, it was the modern thing at the time. When EI bought them they reckoned they would have no problem selling them on.

kona

Theres a cockpit section of a aer lingus viscount still floating about.

EchoIndia

kona wrote: »

There's a cockpit section of a aer lingus viscount still floating about.

I think it's now safe in the Aer Lingus hangar at Dublin after being stored (and I think damaged) off-airport for many years. It is the nose of EI-AOH. http://www.vickersviscount.net/Index/VickersViscount180Photos.aspx

Mebuntu

EchoIndia wrote: »

The Tuskar crash is recalled particularly because it was only Aer Lingus's second fatal accident

It was actually their third fatal. The Ashbourne Viscount crash 9 months prior to Tuskar Rock and, previously, a DC3 crashed in the Welsh Mountains in January 1952 with all onboard perishing in both accidents.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ceremony-for-men-killed-in-aer-lingus-training-flight-crash-1.3354850

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/night-23-killed-on-a-welsh-hillside-26808906.html

In between Ashbourne and Tuskar Rock another of their Viscounts crashed while landing at Bristol. Nobody died but the plane was written off. Pathe News film of aircraft after the crash.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEQPiQ56OiA

In relation to Tuskar Rock this was one of the (later) conspiracy theories!
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/tuskar-rock-crash-caused-by-collision-raf-man-1.1293695

EchoIndia

I didn't count the Ashbourne crash as it was a non-revenue flight.

Stovepipe

The Viscounts were parked down by what is called Cargoland, where the new stands, 411 to 418 exist, where, traditionally, the late night cargo aircraft operated out of. EI ramp staff were specifically told that the aircraft were not to be touched, except for the occasional preservation check or for training people to tow aircraft. Essentially, the airline had lost faith in the aircraft and no-one wanted to fly them or even touch them and jets were the coming thing.

Locker10a

In relation to the RAF conspiracy linked above, that’s also a common opinion of a few London air traffic controllers who were around close to the time the accident happened

Stovepipe

Cobblers...the Fouga never had ejection seats in any of it's production models. If an aircraft was lost in an accident, it would have had to be struck off the official French service records kept for all service aircraft so it's fate would be available for all to see.

Locker10a

Stovepipe wrote: »

Cobblers...the Fouga never had ejection seats in any of it's production models. If an aircraft was lost in an accident, it would have had to be struck off the official French service records kept for all service aircraft so it's fate would be available for all to see.

Sorry yeah, I should have clarified, not necessarily the collision with the French aircraft but that RAF training missions in that area had something to do with the accident, most probably a missile etc. Not necessialy my option just what I’ve been told by London controllers.

EchoIndia

The problem with conspiracy theories is that those who claim a conspiracy generally don't offer up any credible or demonstrably accurate information; hearsay or allegation seems to be enough. I was a bit surprised to see that a priest who conducted a memorial service in Cork this weekend went for the "someone knows something but is not revealing it" approach.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/anyone-with-knowledge-about-the-cause-of-tuskar-disaster-is-urged-to-come-forward-1.3439835

rushfan

Stovepipe wrote:

The Viscounts were parked down by what is called Cargoland, where the new stands, 411 to 418 exist, where, traditionally, the late night cargo aircraft operated out of. EI ramp staff were specifically told that the aircraft were not to be touched, except for the occasional preservation check or for training people to tow aircraft. Essentially, the airline had lost faith in the aircraft and no-one wanted to fly them or even touch them and jets were the coming thing.

I have a vague recollection of seeing aircraft in that area during the early 70s. I used to be at the old man to drive past just to see them. Presumably they were the Viscounts?

Comhrá

I'm guessing those are they?

Irish Steve

Not completely relevant to the Aer Lingus viscounts, but no doubt a factor in some of the decisions that were made, a long time ago now, I recall reading a story about a Viscount that has a problem when landing, a link on the nose wheel broke, and as a result, there was massive vibration as it landed at (I believe) Liverpool, and the nosewheel shimmied very dramatically.

A discussion with flight operations ensued, and a local engineer fitted a replacement link, and the pilot was asked to perform a test flight to ensure that all was well. For some reason that I can't recall, the test flight could not go ahead, and the relevant people then spoke with someone else at base, who was horrified that the engineers had not checked for damage in the tail, as apparently, the elevator spars were vulnerable to damage when this particular fault occurred. The aircraft concerned was inspected, and it was subsequently revealed that had it taken off, very shortly after the take off, it would have crashed, as the elevator spars would have folded up, making the aircraft uncontrollable.

It might have nothing to do with the Aer Lingus fleet, but I do recall at the time wondering how many Viscounts were affected by problems in this area.

Stovepipe

One of the main criticisms of the entire Viscount type was the widely different cockpit fit out. It was common for one subtype to have a cockpit layout with levers, knobs and switches in different places around the cockpit so crews had to be trained for the differences between submodels.....I once had the job of helping to convert Viscounts from pax to cargo in British World, for an African airline. they were built like brick outdoor conveniences, to say the least.

cailinoBAC

Just listened to the documentary, thanks for linking to it, (my dad, who was telling us his memory of the day on Saturday and how he heard the news, said he thought he'd told me about the doc but hadn't!). I was going to listen to it anyway when I read about it here but turned out to be focused on my great aunt's family. I remember always hearing about this from my dad growing up, and in particular around the time of the 2002 investigation, but still shocking to hear again and how the after effects continue.

Locker10a

cailinoBAC wrote: »

Just listened to the documentary, thanks for linking to it, (my dad, who was telling us his memory of the day on Saturday and how he heard the news, said he thought he'd told me about the doc but hadn't!). I was going to listen to it anyway when I read about it here but turned out to be focused on my great aunt's family. I remember always hearing about this from my dad growing up, and in particular around the time of the 2002 investigation, but still shocking to hear again and how the after effects continue.

I’ve just finished it too, I found the summary of the flight given at the end of part 3 chilling to listen to. I found myself with goosebumps, deeply upsetting, shocking about how poorly the original investigation was but very interesting podcast.

cailinoBAC

Locker10a wrote: »

I’ve just finished it too, I found the summary of the flight given at the end of part 3 chilling to listen to. I found myself with goosebumps, deeply upsetting, shocking about how poorly the original investigation was but very interesting podcast.

Yeah, same. I remember my grandad talking about the witnesses outside the church.

As for investigation, a few years ago we were talking about the crash and I think my father in law said the investigator was his uncle...I could be misremembering, but not sure I want to bring it up after hearing that...

roundymac

Just listening to the last piece it remined me of the Japanese 747 that crashed in 1985(?), it had a damaged tailplne from a decompression. It flew around for about 30 minutes before it crashed into a mountain.

Tenger

Owryan wrote: »

During one of the news reports on the tragedy they mentioned that unlike what was the norm for other airlines, Aer Lingus didn't retire the flight number after the crash.

Did they ever give a reason for this? just curious.

Aer Lingus retired the name St.Phelim after Tuskar Rock. Also retired the name from another fatal crash.

EchoIndia

Tenger wrote: »

Aer Lingus retired the name St.Phelim after Tuskar Rock. Also retired the name from another fatal crash.

That must have been the other Viscount tragedy, involving EI-AOF named "St. Cathal".

The DC-3 that crashed in Wales was named "St. Kevin" but this was later used on A320 EI-CVD.

Tenger

EchoIndia wrote: »

That must have been the other Viscount tragedy, involving EI-AOF named "St. Cathal".

The DC-3 that crashed in Wales was named "St. Kevin" but this was later used on A320 EI-CVD.

Ah, that was it. I was going to dig out my “Flight of the Iolar” for a quick glance.
Odd that the Snowdonia crash airc aft name was retained.

Bebop

In 1968 I remember passing by Labre Park in Ballyfermot and saw several Viscount fuselages on a scrapheap, I stopped and had a look, they were ex Aer Lingus Viscounts that had been crudely chopped up, there were some nose sections with what looked like complete cockpits with controls and flight instruments and dials,
Afterwards I spoke to a friend who worked in AL who told me that the mechanics were given chain saws and told to cut up the 8 aircraft

I listened to the excellent documentary today and I have a question:

If the service records of the St Phelim could not be found, did the investigators not have a look at the records of other Viscounts in the AL fleet? Do any of them show hull corrosion issues?

Locker10a

Bebop wrote: »

In 1968 I remember passing by Labre Park in Ballyfermot and saw several Viscount fuselages on a scrapheap, I stopped and had a look, they were ex Aer Lingus Viscounts that had been crudely chopped up, there were some nose sections with what looked like complete cockpits with controls and flight instruments and dials,
Afterwards I spoke to a friend who worked in AL who told me that the mechanics were given chain saws and told to cut up the 8 aircraft

I listened to the excellent documentary today and I have a question:

If the service records of the St Phelim could not be found, did the investigators not have a look at the records of other Viscounts in the AL fleet? Do any of them show hull corrosion issues?

By the sounds of how the original investigation was conducted, it seems they did everything not to point any cause as being technical or mechanical or anything to do with the aircraft and it’s maintenance. So the answer is probably no, or at least if they did it was fine internally in EI and never released to the public.
30 years later when the accident was reviewed by an impartial body those recited were probably long gone.

I listened to this podcast again with a current air traffic controller.
He couldn’t fathom how there wasnt more ATC evidence, how it wasn’t seen on radar flying erratically, dropping altitude so quickly etc. This could have been seen by London ATC or Shannon on their radars. Out of interest he googled he googled the report which included the radio transcript, and was perplexed at how odd it was, and it’s his opinion it was edited, he said the transcript looked like it was written by layman, and not how radio dialogue would have been carried out at the time. So who knows, it appears the original investigation was a complete shambles.

EchoIndia

Locker10a wrote: »

He couldn’t fathom how there wasnt more ATC evidence, how it wasn’t seen on radar flying erratically, dropping altitude so quickly etc. This could have been seen by London ATC or Shannon on their radars. Out of interest he googled he googled the report which included the radio transcript, and was perplexed at how odd it was, and it’s his opinion it was edited, he said the transcript looked like it was written by layman, and not how radio dialogue would have been carried out at the time. So who knows, it appears the original investigation was a complete shambles.

Irish ATC at that time used primary radar only so that would not have captured height information. I'm not sure about London but the transcripts show that SSR "squawks" were never mentioned, so maybe they were similarly limited. From having regularly listened to Dublin and Shannon ATC from the 1970s to date I would say that the conversations as depicted don't seem all that strange. Non-consistent use of airline callsigns and use of abbreviated readbacks were more a feature then, with much lower traffic levels, fewer operators and pilots and controllers often on first-name terms. Reading the 1970 report now, it looks quite limited, but then the whole business of accident investigation was not as developed as it is now, and crucially there were no data or voice recorders to go on - things that are now deemed indispensable in finding out what happened and why.

cml387

One thing was never adequately explained, and that was the captain's use of the aircraft registration "Echo India Alpha Oscar Mike with you".
This was used in the accident report to surmise that the pilot was suddenly visual with another aircraft and in the stress of the situation used the registration (on a plate on the cockpit dashboard) rather than the callsign Shamrock 712.

That would be unusual even vy the standards of the day, I would have thought.

EchoIndia

cml387 wrote: »

One thing was never adequately explained, and that was the captain's use of the aircraft registration "Echo India Alpha Oscar Mike with you".
This was used in the accident report to surmise that the pilot was suddenly visual with another aircraft and in the stress of the situation used the registration (on a plate on the cockpit dashboard) rather than the callsign Shamrock 712.

That would be unusual even vy the standards of the day, I would have thought.

The 1970 report states:

".....At 10.58.02, 33 seconds later, London Radar intercepted a call unfortunately simultaneously with another call from a different aircraft but which was later confirmed as "Echo India Alpha Oscar Mike with you". This message was not in the form generally used by Aer Lingus flight crews, in which the call sign used is the flight number. Furthermore, the message did not begin with the usual preamble, in that it did not contain the call sign of any ground communication station. The message was not in the recognised form of a distress or urgency message. Nevertheless, it seems probable that the message was intended to convey an element of urgency or distress, and that the aircraft was in difficulties at the time of transmission."

The report did not, as far as I can see, link the nature of the distress call to any alleged sighting of another aircraft. It's interesting, if you read the original report, that another Aer Lingus Viscount, operating EI362 to Bristol, heard the EI-AOM message and put two and two together quickly, i.e. that this was probably the EI712 flight with which London was unable to make contact.

orionm_73

Apologies in advance if this sounds stupid, but could the “echo India alpha Oscar mike with you” transmission have come from another aircraft TO the Viscount? Given that the EI crew would normally have used Shamrock as their call sign. The other aircraft not knowing the flight number might have used the reg instead? Or was it proven that it was the crew of the viscount making that call?

cml387

orionm_73 wrote: »

Apologies in advance if this sounds stupid, but could the “echo India alpha Oscar mike with you” transmission have come from another aircraft TO the Viscount? Given that the EI crew would normally have used Shamrock as their call sign. The other aircraft not knowing the flight number might have used the reg instead? Or was it proven that it was the crew of the viscount making that call?

It certainly played a part in one of teh conspiracy theories, including the one about a military aircraft checking out the aircraft as a help to the crew (all ex aer corps).

The report never doubted it came from the crew but I suppose it's a possibility. We know that VHF communication was poor that day.

Locker10a

orionm_73 wrote: »

Apologies in advance if this sounds stupid, but could the “echo India alpha Oscar mike with you” transmission have come from another aircraft TO the Viscount? Given that the EI crew would normally have used Shamrock as their call sign. The other aircraft not knowing the flight number might have used the reg instead? Or was it proven that it was the crew of the viscount making that call?

I understand the theory behind that transmission was that the pilots under stress of dealing with a catastrophic failure in the aircraft were distracted and concentrating heavily and momentarily forgot the flight number, and so used the reg which would have been printed directly infant of them. Just a theory I've come across elsewhere

EchoIndia

The voice IIRC was corroborated as being that of one the crew (the FO?) by persons who knew the pilots. By the way, in those days the company callsign was "Aer Lingus", as documented in the official report. "Shamrock" was confined to transatlantic (Aerlinte Eireann) flights.