Private Property being used as a Short Cut

c.p.w.g.w

As the title suggests, can private property be used as a short cut without permission

Example,

Houses in an estate, Johnny(lives at no 3) walks through Paddy's(Lives at no 6) garden* to get to another house(no 11) in the estate. Paddy has asked Johnny to stop walking through his garden on numerous occasions, yet Johnny still uses garden as short cut.

Would that be deemed as a trepass under any of the currents laws on the book?

* as well as all gardens 4 through 10

All Hypothetical of course.

Peregrinus

Yes, it’s a trespass. Paddy can sue Johnny. Perhaps cheaper and more effective, Paddy can fence and gate his property.

Note that trespass is not a crime. The guards won’t be interested.

c.p.w.g.w

Peregrinus wrote: »

Yes, it’s a trespass. Paddy can sue Johnny. Perhaps cheaper and more effective, Paddy can fence and gate his property.

Note that trespass is not a crime. The guards won’t be interested.

Trespass is a civil matter so...but what if Paddy feels threatened by the continued trespass, could that fall into Public Order Act 1994 Section 13/14?

endacl

Paddy should adjust his stance from ‘asking’ to ‘telling’.

c.p.w.g.w

Actually if the trespass is so frequent could it be legally classed as harassment? If the tresspass affects paddy's privacy e.g looking in living room window while trespassing?

Peregrinus

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Trespass is a civil matter so...but what if Paddy feels threatened by the continued trespass, could that fall into Public Order Act 1994 Section 13/14?

S. 13 creates the offence of trespass "in such a manner as causes or is likely to cause fear in another person". It's stipulated in the OP that Johnny is using Paddy's garden (and others) as a short cut to get from his own house to another house. There's nothing in that to cause fear in another person. So you'd need significant additional facts before there could be any hope of dealing with this under s. 13.

S. 14 deals with riot. Riots involve at least 12 people, and the use or threat of violence. This is not a riot.

the_syco

OP; do you like the smell of roses?

Peregrinus

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Actually if the trespass is so frequent could it be legally classed as harassment? If the tresspass affects paddy's privacy e.g looking in living room window while trespassing?

Harrassment involves "persistently following, watching, pestering, besetting or communicating with" another person. I don't think taking a short cut through someone's garden, even regularly, will amount to this, even if as a result of the short cut the trespasser has an opportunity to see through a window.

It might be different if he was approaching the window in order to peer through, or lingering in the garden in order to observe over a period. But simply passing through the garden to get to no. 11? No.

I repeat; fences, gates. If Johny damages the fence, forces a lock, etc, that looks like criminal damage, and then you might get the guards to take an interest.

c.p.w.g.w

the_syco wrote: »

OP; do you like the smell of roses?

Not really, get a terrible bout of sneezing if there are roses anywhere near me

c.p.w.g.w

Peregrinus wrote: »

Harrassment involves "persistently following, watching, pestering, besetting or communicating with" another person. I don't think taking a short cut through someone's garden, even regularly, will amount to this, even if as a result of the short cut the trespasser has an opportunity to see through a window.

It might be different if he was approaching the window in order to peer through, or lingering in the garden in order to observe over a period. But simply passing through the garden to get to no. 11? No.

I repeat; fences, gates. If Johny damages the fence, forces a lock, etc, that looks like criminal damage, and then you might get the guards to take an interest.

Point taken with regards gate, fence etc...

But if Johnny passes by the window, where they can see directly into the living room. Say 2 inches from the window, and looks in while passing. I know its incredibly tenuous

Peregrinus

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Point taken with regards gate, fence etc...

But if Johnny passes by the window, where they can see directly into the living room. Say 2 inches from the window, and looks in while passing. I know its incredibly tenuous

Is the window visible from the road in any event?

Is the route passing two inches from the window part of a reasonable route to no. 11, or is Johnny deviating in order to pass close to the window?

Is Johnny lingering to look in the window? If he's passing that close to the window, and doesn't pause, he could only see in for a second or so.

These are the kind of questions that would come up. But, yes, it is pretty tenuous. We know what Johnny is at; he's taking a short cut. Criminal statutes are interpreted restrictively, and it seems unlikely that in legislation aimed at harrassment, the Oireachtas actually intended to target short cuts. I don't think there's much chance of a successful prosecution here.

c.p.w.g.w

Peregrinus wrote: »

Is the window visible from the road in any event?

Is the route passing two inches from the window part of a reasonable route to no. 11, or is Johnny deviating in order to pass close to the window?

Is Johnny lingering to look in the window? If he's passing that close to the window, and doesn't pause, he could only see in for a second or so.

These are the kind of questions that would come up. But, yes, it is pretty tenuous. We know what Johnny is at; he's taking a short cut. Criminal statutes are interpreted restrictively, and it seems unlikely that in legislation aimed at harrassment, the Oireachtas actually intended to target short cuts. I don't think there's much chance of a successful prosecution here.

Cheers

The window is visible from the road which is let's say 18-20 feet from Window, footpath that Johnny refuses to use is 16-18 feet from the window.

Peregrinus

Then in passing by the window, Johnny isn't seeing anything the public can't see. Indeed, whatever he sees, he will see for less time than he would if he used the public footpath though, as against that, he'll have a better view.

The better view notwithstanding, this isn't much of a foundation for a harrassment prosecution.

As well as the gates and fences, plant some nice thorny shrub below the window. As well as obliging Johnny to take a wider loop around your house, it will provide additional protection against burglary.

4ensic15

The one thing Paddy can't do is leave a trap for Johnny as he may bew liable for injury caused. I know a guy who had a similar problem. He cut some sods from his lawn where the trespasser walked. Then he dug a hole about 2ft deep. He filled the hole with horse dung and put some light sticks across the hole and replace the sods on top of the sticks. The tresp[asser came along and stepped on the newly replace sod and went straight down into the hole. By the time he got out his trousers were covered in horse dung. You can't do that any more though.

c.p.w.g.w

4ensic15 wrote: »

The one thing Paddy can't do is leave a trap for Johnny as he may bew liable for injury caused. I know a guy who had a similar problem. He cut some sods from his lawn where the trespasser walked. Then he dug a hole about 2ft deep. He filled the hole with horse dung and put some light sticks across the hole and replace the sods on top of the sticks. The tresp[asser came along and stepped on the newly replace sod and went straight down into the hole. By the time he got out his trousers were covered in horse dung. You can't do that any more though.

Of course, but the thread is directly related to legal and lawfully remedies to the situation proposed in OP

NUTLEY BOY

Conceptually, this situation is somewhat like to a sign erected at the entrance to a property saying "Private Road" or the like. Usually, these signs are of minimal value. If the occupier is asserting rights over the property the notice would need to be accompanied by practical assertions of the right in order to render it meaningful.

For example, many drivers used UCD Belfield as a through road / rat run at peak commuting hours both morning and early evening. Some years ago UCD erected gates to close off parts of the various internal roads at these peak times thus rendering it impossible for drivers to transit the entire campus. This was a good example of the practical and effective assertion of control over private property.

The problem arising from frequent or continuous trespass is that if it is not checked the occupier will eventually be deemed to be acquiescing to it. From a tort perspective alone this acquiescence can lead to the creation of a duty of care towards the "trespasser" who might now acquire the status of someone present with permission.

As far as looking through your window goes you could always bamboozle the trespasser by telling him that he is breaching one of your constitutional rights namely Article 40.5 which provides that "the dwelling of every citizen is inviolable and shall not be forcibly entered save in accordance with law." Then tell him that the dwelling includes the grounds of your property :rolleyes: These conversations are at their most entertaining if the transiting "visitor" is just returning from a pub .

Dial Hard

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

As the title suggests, can private property be used as a short cut without permission

Example,

Houses in an estate, Johnny(lives at no 3) walks through Paddy's(Lives at no 6) garden* to get to another house(no 11) in the estate. Paddy has asked Johnny to stop walking through his garden on numerous occasions, yet Johnny still uses garden as short cut.

Would that be deemed as a trepass under any of the currents laws on the book?

* as well as all gardens 4 through 10

All Hypothetical of course.

Hypothetically, does everyone in the estate own their front garden? In plenty of newer estates you only own the footprint of your property. In my estate, for example, Johnny would be crossing through land owned by the management company if he cut through my front garden.

c.p.w.g.w

Dial Hard wrote: »

Hypothetically, does everyone in the estate own their front garden? In plenty of newer estates you only own the footprint of your property. In my estate, for example, Johnny would be crossing through land owned by the management company if he cut through my front garden.

Front garden is owed by the home owner in this scenario