Dog bite

C.L.131

Looking for advice please. Today I was making a delivery and as person wasn't home had to drop a card through letter box. I could hear a dog barking inside but thought there would be a box inside for mail. There wasn't and the dog bit my finger. It bled alot. Had to go to hospital. Tetanus shot and antibiotics and had to go home from work. Should I report this incident and if so to who?

jimf

I suppose it depends on how much of a deal you want to make of it

me personally as a dog lover would put it down as a bad experience and get on with it

so many ways you could look at it I don't mean to belittle your obvious bad experience in any way

hopefully your injuries aren't too bad and your ok to resume work tomorrow

maybe report it to the householder anyway they may not know their dog is this way inclined and might be very embarrassed with your ordeal and willing to reimburse you financially

fritzelly

Dogs will go for anything entering their home - that's just instinct

As for reporting, nothing will come of it - the dog saw juicy treats coming thru the letterbox. Be different if it was in a public place and the dog went for you

Exactly how common is it for boxes on doors for letters? Never lived in an house that had one. Bit of due diligence when you hear a dog barking and you putting your hand in. Most owners would be glad their dog attacked anyone's hand coming thru the letterbox

Ashbx

You entered their property and put your hand through their letter box so I really dont think anything will be done about it. I would say it to the owner anyway and ask that they keep their dog away from the front door going forward as it is quite dangerous.

Del2005

C.L.131 wrote: »

Looking for advice please. Today I was making a delivery and as person wasn't home had to drop a card through letter box. I could hear a dog barking inside but thought there would be a box inside for mail. There wasn't and the dog bit my finger. It bled alot. Had to go to hospital. Tetanus shot and antibiotics and had to go home from work. Should I report this incident and if so to who?

You will have to report it to your employer and they will then have a process to follow. Not really the dogs fault as it was following it's natural instincts, but the home owner may have to get a box if they want parcels delivered again.

Suckit

Ashbx wrote: »

You entered their property and put your hand through their letter box so I really dont think anything will be done about it. I would say it to the owner anyway and ask that they keep their dog away from the front door going forward as it is quite dangerous.

That's definitely incorrect.

As Del2005 said, report it to your employer and go from there. Hopefully it will notify the owner and they will take preventative steps for the future.

DBB

In Irish law, there is no stipulation on where the dog, or the person it bites, is located when the bite happens. So, whether a person gets bitten in a park, or in someone's kitchen, or whilst sticking letters through the letterbox, if the dog bites them, the owner is liable, and the person who got bitten has every right to take legal action.
In cases where a finger gets bitten whilst posting stuff through the door, it is entirely reasonable to ask the owner to either put a letter cage inside the door so that the dog can't reach fingers, or that they place a letterbox outside the building. People have a right to expect to be able to post items through a person's letterbox without coming to harm, so saying a person needs to have "due diligence" when posting letters into a house with a barking dog has no legal standing, and will not be entertained by any judge. And just to clarify, I would consider owners who'd be happy at their dog biting someone's fingers as they post stuff through, to be in the minority.
Certainly, the owners need to be made aware of what has happened, because with no action taken it'll happen again, and bite injuries through letterboxes can be nasty enough. Whether the owners are made aware comes directly from the op, or via the company you work for, or via the county dog warden on foot of a report from you, depends entirely on what tack you take. But I'd definitely do something to make the owners aware.

_Brian

This is essentially a workplace injury and as such should be reported to the employer and their systems should deal with it.

C.L.131

Thanks for the replies. My employer is making contact with the householder so will await the outcome

ganmo

C.L.131 wrote: »

Thanks for the replies. My employer is making contact with the householder so will await the outcome

An Post have procedures for stuff like this, your employer should have something similar
maybe suggest they get something like below
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Large-Letter-Guard-Protect-Proof/dp/B00KW85CL2

Graces7

Still trying to work out how and why enough of your fingers were through the letterbox for them to get bitten..

MinnieMinx

fritzelly wrote: »

Dogs will go for anything entering their home - that's just instinct
Exactly how common is it for boxes on doors for letters? Never lived in an house that had one.

Virtually all houses have letterboxes on their doors in the UK and if your dog bit someone who was legitimately posting a letter, you could be prosecuted either by the police or directly via a private prosecution.

A UK postal worker was awarded £1500 compensation for his bite injuries from the dog’s owner in 2012.

It only takes one serious incident that makes it to court for a precedent to be set.

Graces7

MinnieMinx wrote: »

Virtually all houses have letterboxes on their doors in the UK and if your dog bit someone who was legitimately posting a letter, you could be prosecuted either by the police or directly via a private prosecution.

A UK postal worker was awarded £1500 compensation for his bite injuries from the dog’s owner in 2012.

It only takes one serious incident that makes it to court for a precedent to be set.

Seem to remember a case here where a burglar who got bitten "on the job" Was awarded damages in court?

muddypaws

MinnieMinx wrote: »

Virtually all houses have letterboxes on their doors in the UK and if your dog bit someone who was legitimately posting a letter, you could be prosecuted either by the police or directly via a private prosecution.

A UK postal worker was awarded £1500 compensation for his bite injuries from the dog’s owner in 2012.

It only takes one serious incident that makes it to court for a precedent to be set.

I think the poster means boxes on the inside, to catch the post as it comes in, not the actual flap bit.

DesperateDan

Graces7 wrote:

Still trying to work out how and why enough of your fingers were through the letterbox for them to get bitten..

Many are stiff with stiff bristles and require one hand to hold it open and the other to fully shove the packet into the letter box.

Source: Many years experience posting sh*tty menus into people's houses

wexie

DBB wrote: »

In Irish law, there is no stipulation on where the dog, or the person it bites, is located when the bite happens. So, whether a person gets bitten in a park, or in someone's kitchen, or whilst sticking letters through the letterbox, if the dog bites them, the owner is liable, and the person who got bitten has every right to take legal action.

Was this not changed a few years ago DBB? Not questioning you just that I have a vague recollection of reading about this changing a few years ago and there no longer being liability for the owners if a dog attacks (for example) a trespasser?

I remember thinking at the time it was odd this was already not the case and it being a good change?

Greybottle

wexie wrote: »

Was this not changed a few years ago DBB? Not questioning you just that I have a vague recollection of reading about this changing a few years ago and there no longer being liability for the owners if a dog attacks (for example) a trespasser?

I remember thinking at the time it was odd this was already not the case and it being a good change?

A delivery person or An Post worker would not be regarded as a trespasser so long as they went about their duties and did not divert from them.

So in this case there is an implied right of the delivery man to enter the garden, push open the letter box and push the envelope etc. through it. The home owners should have put up signage prohibiting this if they do not want post etc. delivered.

The delivery man is in the right here, he has reported it and action should be followed.

Homeowners should put in letter cages for a number of reasons, least of all they stop the letters falling on the floor. We did the same when we got a Westie who jumped at the letter flap when it was opened. €20 IIRC and about 5 minutes to fit.

DBB

wexie wrote: »

Was this not changed a few years ago DBB? Not questioning you just that I have a vague recollection of reading about this changing a few years ago and there no longer being liability for the owners if a dog attacks (for example) a trespasser?

I remember thinking at the time it was odd this was already not the case and it being a good change?

I'm not sure about trespassers... But owner liability certainly still applies to people who are bitten in the course of doing lawful activities, such as delivering letters or parcels, or walking in the park, or walking up your driveway to knock on your door.
The laws were changed recently in the UK alright, to include dog bites that occur in the home. I *think* their original legislation only covered bites that happened in public places?

tretorn

Make sure you have taken pictures of your finger.
Then get the house owners home insurance details and mske a claim for damages on their insurance.
Refuse to deliver anything else to the house, you can throw their mail over the wall or tell them to collect at the PO.
You arent paid danger money so dont put yourself in danger.
Dog probably out of its mind with boredom stuck in a house alone all day, not your problem.
I hope you recover quickly, horrible thing to experience.

tk123

tretorn wrote: »

Make sure you have taken pictures of your finger.
Then get the house owners home insurance details and mske a claim for damages on their insurance.
Refuse to deliver anything else to the house, you can throw their mail over the wall or tell them to collect at the PO.
You arent paid danger money so dont put yourself in danger.
Dog probably out of its mind with boredom stuck in a house alone all day, not your problem.
I hope you recover quickly, horrible thing to experience.

A bit OTT? My dogs bark when anyone comes to the door and they're not out of their minds with boredom - they're alerting us that there's somebody at the door? Both are trained not to go near the letter box or anything that comes through it btw.. One cries at the post, the other might touch it with their paw if they're feeling bold that day and run away from it :P

ganmo

DBB wrote: »

I'm not sure about trespassers... But owner liability certainly still applies to people who are bitten in the course of doing lawful activities, such as delivering letters or parcels, or walking in the park, or walking up your driveway to knock on your door.
The laws were changed recently in the UK alright, to include dog bites that occur in the home. I *think* their original legislation only covered bites that happened in public places?

Occupiers liability does apply, it’ll be a case of showing the occupier was in some way negligent. In this case having the dog have access to the letterbox opening might be considered negligent.

DBB

ganmo wrote: »

Occupiers liability does apply, it’ll be a case of showing the occupier was in some way negligent. In this case having the dog have access to the letterbox opening might be considered negligent.

Negligence is not a factor in the legislation that covers dog bites to people acting lawfully under the Control of Dogs Act 1986. Indeed, this Act specifically states that a person who is bitten does not have to show a previous propensity of the dog to bite, nor that the owner's negligence caused the bite.
If the dog bites a person who is acting lawfully, the owner is liable, it's as simple as that.

However, negligence must be proven in the case of trespass.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1986/act/32/section/21/enacted/en/html#sec21

Choc Chip

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer.

I agree with DBB - Assuming the OP wasn't trespassing (and it doesn't sound like he was) he could look for damages under the COD Act linked by DBB above, given that the owner is strictly liable (i.e. no negligence must be proven). The issue with suing individuals is sometimes limited means.

However, negligence might be considered if the employer contributed to the accident (i.e. had there been previous incidents at that house with other employees/ had the OP previously warned his employer about the behaviour of the dog at the house). It's been years since I've looked at any employment law but I'd definitely file a report with your employer to make them aware of the situation.

OP - I'm certainly not encouraging you to look for damages from everyone, but if the damage to your fingers is very bad I would consider speaking to a solicitor to make sure that you're not out of pocket for something that wasn't your fault. I hope your fingers are ok.

B-D-P--

DBB wrote: »

In Irish law, there is no stipulation on where the dog, or the person it bites, is located when the bite happens. So, whether a person gets bitten in a park, or in someone's kitchen, or whilst sticking letters through the letterbox, if the dog bites them, the owner is liable, and the person who got bitten has every right to take legal action.
In cases where a finger gets bitten whilst posting stuff through the door, it is entirely reasonable to ask the owner to either put a letter cage inside the door so that the dog can't reach fingers, or that they place a letterbox outside the building. People have a right to expect to be able to post items through a person's letterbox without coming to harm, so saying a person needs to have "due diligence" when posting letters into a house with a barking dog has no legal standing, and will not be entertained by any judge. And just to clarify, I would consider owners who'd be happy at their dog biting someone's fingers as they post stuff through, to be in the minority.
Certainly, the owners need to be made aware of what has happened, because with no action taken it'll happen again, and bite injuries through letterboxes can be nasty enough. Whether the owners are made aware comes directly from the op, or via the company you work for, or via the county dog warden on foot of a report from you, depends entirely on what tack you take. But I'd definitely do something to make the owners aware.

So going by this, Gaurd dogs are essentially an illegal way of keeping people off your property? If they react as they are trained and bite an intruder, the owner is liable?
Even with all these enter at your own risk or beware of dog signs?
Is there a legal way to have security dogs on private property working as intended?

Choc Chip

B-D-P-- wrote: »

So going by this, Gaurd dogs are essentially an illegal way of keeping people off your property? If they react as they are trained and bite an intruder, the owner is liable?
Even with all these enter at your own risk or beware of dog signs?
Is there a legal way to have security dogs on private property working as intended?

See the link DBB quoted: "(3) A person is liable in damages for any damage caused by a dog kept on any premises or structure to a person trespassing thereon only in accordance with the rules of law relating to liability for negligence.". Emphasis mine.

So strict liability shouldn't apply in the case of trespass.

So, if your guard dog bites someone trespassing on your property, your potential liability will presumably be covered under more general tort law regarding damage befalling trespassers. I have absolutely no idea how a court would view a guard dog trained to bite actually biting a person - it seems a reasonably foreseeable danger. I think the UK has legislated around this but I don't know that Ireland has.

Again, I'm 100% not a lawyer. Legal forum might offer a better understanding?

tk123

B-D-P-- wrote: »

So going by this, Gaurd dogs are essentially an illegal way of keeping people off your property? If they react as they are trained and bite an intruder, the owner is liable?
Even with all these enter at your own risk or beware of dog signs?
Is there a legal way to have security dogs on private property working as intended?

Well going by what DBB is saying - you're liable if somebody is lawfully on your properly like delivering something and gets bitten. But we live in claim culture so I wouldn't be surprised if somebody robbing your house/business get's bitten and sued. Didn't somebody sue a business owner recently because they injured themselves robbing the place? https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/burglar-sues-shop-owner-after-he-injured-his-testicles-while-robbing-the-premises-36468641.html

Choc Chip

Quick Google brings up this: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1988/si/255/made/en/print

SI on Guard Dog Regulations. You can have a guard dog but you have to abide by the various requirements set out.

Amusingly enough, your notice must have: "a large drawing of the outline or silhouette of the head and shoulders of a German Shepherd (Alsatian) dog". Like, what did the GSD do to make them appear in legislation as shorthand for guard dog?

Sorry mods - I might have totally off topic... delete if ya like!

tk123

Choc Chip wrote: »

Quick Google brings up this: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1988/si/255/made/en/print

SI on Guard Dog Regulations. You can have a guard dog but you have to abide by the various requirements set out.

Amusingly enough, your notice must have: "a large drawing of the outline or silhouette of the head and shoulders of a German Shepherd (Alsatian) dog". Like, what did the GSD do to make them appear in legislation as shorthand for guard dog?

Sorry mods - I might have totally off topic... delete if ya like!

:p All I can think of now is 'Chopper sick b@lls!!' ....and its a retriever

DBB

Choc Chip wrote: »

Quick Google brings up this: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1988/si/255/made/en/print

SI on Guard Dog Regulations. You can have a guard dog but you have to abide by the various requirements set out.

Sorry mods - I might have totally off topic... delete if ya like!

Thanks CC, I was about to quote this part of the Act relating specifically to guard dogs, but you kindly saved me the bother

eurokev

You do know you don't have to put your hand physically inside the letter box to post a letter??

I'm no letter posting expert but have put a few letters in to letterboxes in my time.

Never can I remember having my hand closer than 6 inches away from the door before the fulcrum would shift sufficiently along the lenght of the letter to allow it to drop inside the person's hall/porch.

Why was your hand so far in to allow a dog to bite your hand, seems absolutely ridiculous to me

DBB

Many letterboxes have brushes on them, which makes it necessary to really push letters all the way through til it falls on the far side. Otherwise the letter remains visibly sticking out, there for anyone to take... It's perfectly feasible for someone to stick a finger through the letterbox whilst going about their business delivering letters or pamphlets. It is also perfectly feasible for a child to stick fingers in whilst delivering letters or pamphlets.
To blame anyone for that just comes across as victim blaming, to be honest.
You can be damn sure this was not the first time the dog in the op has reacted poorly to letters coming in the letterbox... It is absolutely the owners' responsibility to make sure the dog cannot access the letterbox.

carltonleon

One of the first things I was told when becoming a postman was never put your fingers inside a letterbox ..... I remember one particular house and they had a dog who must just have been constantly sitting under the letterbox for as soon as I put a letter in through the door he/she would jump up and try and bite me. Luckily I knew it was there but there were times when it was close. Anyway I was getting fed up with it so one day as I put a letter through the letterbox I held the letter as the dog grabbed it and did not let go until the letter ripped in two. Next day delivering the post and no dog was at the door. Problem solved ... I could hear he/she barking in the house but presumably in another room

Graces7

carltonleon wrote: »

One of the first things I was told when becoming a postman was never put your fingers inside a letterbox ..... I remember one particular house and they had a dog who must just have been constantly sitting under the letterbox for as soon as I put a letter in through the door he/she would jump up and try and bite me. Luckily I knew it was there but there were times when it was close. Anyway I was getting fed up with it so one day as I put a letter through the letterbox I held the letter as the dog grabbed it and did not let go until the letter ripped in two. Next day delivering the post and no dog was at the door. Problem solved ... I could hear he/she barking in the house but presumably in another room

Wonderful!