Directors and staff won prizes in 30% of credit union draws

i71jskz5xu42pb

(This is a consumer issue, not my consumer issue though, feel free to move is there's a better home)

Amazing report from the Central Bank on Credit Unions stating that "roughly 30 per cent of those that operated prize draws, staff and directors were the winners of those prizes."

Anybody who has ever glanced at the Terms and Conditions of a Prize Draw will usually see something to the effect of "employees, directors & their families not eligible". Different rules for the credit Union it seems.

Add to that, it looks like account holders may have been entered to car draws without their knowing and records of previous winners are not being maintained.

I love the idea of Credit Unions but you'd have to worry about the kinds of people that are running them if this is the carry on they get up to.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/directors-and-staff-won-prizes-in-30-of-credit-union-draws-1.3419808

Wheety

Was there staff winning prizes in 30% of Credit Unions? Or as The Mirror worded it staff won 30% of the cars?

Almost a third of car raffles organised by credit unions across Ireland were won by staff and directors, a damning new report has revealed.

The Central Bank dossier reveals 30% of new motors given away went to employees - with the remainder won by some of the 446,000 members who entered the draws.

Slight difference in wording but massive difference in meaning.

i71jskz5xu42pb

From the horse's mouth (pg 6 of the report)

In approximately 30% of credit unions who operate prize draws staff and directors have won prizes over the period October 2014 to March 2017

So the Times has it right.

https://www.centralbank.ie/docs/default-source/Regulation/industry-market-sectors/credit-unions/communications/reports/prize-draws-in-credit-unions-thematic-review-findings-march-2018.pdf

amcalester

But what were the prizes?

Big difference between member A winning a car and member B (who is also an employee) winning a €50 voucher to the local spa.

Or vice versa, obviously it should be looked into (and would make sense to exclude employees/directors fro draws) but are the frequency of these wins in line with general expected results.

Riskymove

The last raffle I was at was very interesting.....(see attached)

i71jskz5xu42pb

amcalester wrote: »

But what were the prizes?

Big difference between member A winning a car and member B (who is also an employee) winning a €50 voucher to the local spa.

Or vice versa, obviously it should be looked into (and would make sense to exclude employees/directors fro draws) but are the frequency of these wins in line with general expected results.

My view is that none of that matters. Once you allow employees & directors (the people who are running the draws) enter the draws you're done. You've done two things:

1. Left yourself open for the accusation that the draw was rigged no matter how scrupulous you might be
2. Put employees in the position where there is an incentive to rig the vote - for themselves or a friend

I hear what you are saying this might just be €50 voucher in many cases. But it's a slippery slope and indicative of poor management. And if they can't manage a simple prize draw well how would anybody expect them to manage large deposits.

amcalester

Leyla Old-fashioned Face wrote: »

My view is that none of that matters. Once you allow employees & directors (the people who are running the draws) enter the draws you're done. You've done two things:

1. Left yourself open for the accusation that the draw was rigged no matter how scrupulous you might be
2. Put employees in the position where there is an incentive to rig the vote - for themselves or a friend

I hear what you are saying this might just be €50 voucher in many cases. But it's a slippery slope and indicative of poor management. And if they can't manage a simple prize draw well how would anybody expect them to manage large deposits.

Oh I completely agree, very foolish of them to allow this happen.

At best it shows poor foresight and awareness and at worst... well no need to go there.

Buer

amcalester wrote: »

But what were the prizes?

Big difference between member A winning a car and member B (who is also an employee) winning a €50 voucher to the local spa.

Or vice versa, obviously it should be looked into (and would make sense to exclude employees/directors fro draws) but are the frequency of these wins in line with general expected results.

There was €40m in prizes in the 30 month period so I think it's safe to assume that a good number of them were significantly more than €50.

cbreeze

I was at my local credit union agm a few years ago and an employee's name was pulled out of the hat at the meeting and the car was won. It would have been difficult to rig this in public.

meep

cbreeze wrote: »

I was at my local credit union agm a few years ago and an employee's name was pulled out of the hat at the meeting and the car was won. It would have been difficult to rig this in public.

Except the employees name should not have been in there in the first place.

I worked in an agency a few years ago that was organising a competiton for a client. By genuine co-incidence, the prize was won by the granny of the exec. who was running the account. He had to break the news to her that she couldn't have the prize.

Birdie Num Num

Leyla Old-fashioned Face wrote: »

(This is a consumer issue, not my consumer issue though, feel free to move is there's a better home)

Amazing report from the Central Bank on Credit Unions stating that "roughly 30 per cent of those that operated prize draws, staff and directors were the winners of those prizes."

Anybody who has ever glanced at the Terms and Conditions of a Prize Draw will usually see something to the effect of "employees, directors & their families not eligible". Different rules for the credit Union it seems.

Add to that, it looks like account holders may have been entered to car draws without their knowing and records of previous winners are not being maintained.

I love the idea of Credit Unions but you'd have to worry about the kinds of people that are running them if this is the carry on they get up to.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/directors-and-staff-won-prizes-in-30-of-credit-union-draws-1.3419808

I've yet to read the article but I heard a news report on the radio this morning. These news items on Credit Unions come out on an almost quarterly basis now on morning radio. Generally slotted in at the end of the news.

What you also have to take into consideration is that the banks are no fans of the Credit Unions. They are jealous of the large member base and the reserves that the Credit Unions have. Also they do not like that a loan from the credit union is insured to the benefit of the applicant. The banks want as much stink about CUs as possible in my opinion.

minikin

Two senior staff members of our credit union won cars in recent years... very lucky!
Even though I'm sure nothing underhanded happened, it doesn't look good.
Should be policy that staff / volunteers are barred from entry, so they're seen as being whiter than white.

i71jskz5xu42pb

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

I've yet to read the article but ....

.... I'll venture some vague conspiracy theory about how this is the banks doing anyway.

Read the article, it'll only take 2 minutes.

emeldc

minikin wrote: »

Two senior staff members of our credit union won cars in recent years... very lucky!
Even though I'm sure nothing underhanded happened, it doesn't look good.
Should be policy that staff / volunteers are barred from entry, so they're seen as being whiter than white.

But how are you sure. I'm beginning to think there isn't an institution or organisation left out there that isn't on the take in some way or other.

Avatar MIA

cbreeze wrote: »

I was at my local credit union agm a few years ago and an employee's name was pulled out of the hat at the meeting and the car was won. It would have been difficult to rig this in public.

You must love magic shows.

Avatar MIA

minikin wrote: »

Should be policy that staff / volunteers are barred from entry, so they're seen as being whiter than white.

This is basic 101 in not being a gangster organisation.

But, as has been pointed out. If they do the... what else is going on. And of course lots of CU's have got into trouble. Not really surprising if this is the level of management.

schemingbohemia

Your heading for the thread implies that 30% of prizes were won by employees. Not the case, 30% of CU that ran prize draws had prizes won by employees or directors. Now, how many prizes were handed out over the 18 month period and how many prizes were won by employees or directors isn't stated. It's all clickbait and rubbish statistics presented as news.

Franz Von Peppercorn

emeldc wrote: »

But how are you sure. I'm beginning to think there isn't an institution or organisation left out there that isn't on the take in some way or other.

I think official Ireland is corrupt alright.

I was definitely entered into a car draw without permission. My credit union is down the country - where we lived until I was 13. Anyway that was set up and I added 1k when I was 20 or so. In the annual reports I am charged 16€ for the draw. I don’t really mind (or didn’t until the fraud) but I certainly didn’t agree to it.

TheIrishGrover

This morning on the 7AM news on TodayFM they said that 30% of the top prizes went to staff. NOT 30% of the prizes were won by staff. As someone else said, BIG difference. There may well have been some[/I] shennanigans going on in some of the draws but I doubt it was on a large scale.

But yeah, staff really shouldn't be allowed to enter. As for friends/family? That's a tougher one. The whole nature of the CU setup is that it's local. If you were to disallow family and friends then you are just going to have nobody entering.

i71jskz5xu42pb

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Your heading for the thread implies that 30% of prizes were won by employees. Not the case, 30% of CU that ran prize draws had prizes won by employees or directors. Now, how many prizes were handed out over the 18 month period and how many prizes were won by employees or directors isn't stated. It's all clickbait and rubbish statistics presented as news.

Not my headline, it's the Irish Times' headline. It's not well worded I'll agree but this point has already been clarified earlier in this thread.

The appropriate number of prizes to be won the employees of any organisation running a prize draw is zero. Dance around the numbers all you want, that number will always be zero.

Franz Von Peppercorn

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Your heading for the thread implies that 30% of prizes were won by employees. Not the case, 30% of CU that ran prize draws had prizes won by employees or directors. Now, how many prizes were handed out over the 18 month period and how many prizes were won by employees or directors isn't stated. It's all clickbait and rubbish statistics presented as news.

He’s quoting the IT. Your analysis is correct I think. Of course if those 30% of credit unions where directors won prizes it could have been frequent - except we don’t know because they don’t keep lists of previous winners.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Leyla Old-fashioned Face wrote: »

Not my headline, it's the Irish Times' headline. It's not well worded I'll agree but this point has already been clarified earlier in this thread.

The appropriate number of prizes to be won the employees of any organisation running a prize draw is zero. Dance around the numbers all you want, that number will always be zero.

Even pub draws exclude staff. Mostly.

.......

This post has been deleted.

PickleJar

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Yes, so are Directors.

Birdie Num Num

minikin wrote: »

Two senior staff members of our credit union won cars in recent years... very lucky!
Even though I'm sure nothing underhanded happened, it doesn't look good.
Should be policy that staff / volunteers are barred from entry, so they're seen as being whiter than white.

There have been bad practises by some CUs for sure (EG Rush as per the photo in the article) and there is a vein to tarnish all with the same brush. Directors come from the member base, elected at AGMs by members. Those members do this on a voluntary basis and are on an equal footing with all other members so any member draws should be equally available to them. I can't comment on paid staff but I guess they must be members too if in a draw. The ethos of Credit Unions is sound and they are set up in the interest of communities and members and are presided over by it's members, unlike banks but yes their have been bad practices too, like banks.

It also has to be read properly as; that in 30% of CUs that run draws staff/directors have won prizes. That is not very high over a 2.5 year period. It’s not 30% of all prizes won. I would guess that most of that 30% was probably accounted for by Rush CU. Also any draw must be presided over by an independent solicitor or other.

loyatemu

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

There have been bad practises by some CUs for sure (EG Rush as per the photo in the article) and there is a vein to tarnish all with the same brush. Directors come from the member base, elected at AGMs by members. Those members do this on a voluntary basis and are on an equal footing with all other members so any member draws should be equally available to them. I can't comment on paid staff but I guess they must be members too if in a draw. The ethos of Credit Unions is sound and they are set up in the interest of communities and members and are presided over by it's members, unlike banks but yes their have been bad practices too, like banks.

It also has to be read properly as; that in 30% of CUs that run draws staff/directors have won prizes. That is not very high over a 2.5 year period. It’s not 30% of all prizes won. I would guess that most of that 30% was probably accounted for by Rush CU. Also any draw must be presided over by an independent solicitor or other.

Regardless of all that - you can't have the organisers of raffles winning the raffle; it's farcical. It's nothing to do with the banks being out to get the CUs, it's bad practise and bad management.

Birdie Num Num

loyatemu wrote: »

Regardless of all that - you can't have the organisers of raffles winning the raffle; it's farcical. It's nothing to do with the banks being out to get the CUs, it's bad practise and bad management.

It's not a raffle. It's a members draw that is available to all members that pay into that draw and it must be overseen by an independent. There were irregularities in Rush regarding draws, I don't know of any other. But the issues in Rush have been allowed to stain all CUs.

Sleeper12

I always thought the normal thing was to exclude staff and family members from draws like this

Stovepipe

it's a bit like some GAA club draws; you, as a randomer, can buy a ticket for your local draw at every pub/shop/whatever but no outsider will ever win it and you can be sure that club loyalists will be favoured by getting a seller's prize.

loyatemu

Stovepipe wrote: »

it's a bit like some GAA club draws; you, as a randomer, can buy a ticket for your local draw at every pub/shop/whatever but no outsider will ever win it and you can be sure that club loyalists will be favoured by getting a seller's prize.

do GAA clubs give away cars often? (genuine question).

also clubs, schools etc are not financial institutions - I appreciate that CUs were not originally setup to be businesses but if they're handling millions of euros then they need to be held to a higher set of standards than the local GAA club.

Birdie Num Num

loyatemu wrote: »

do GAA clubs give away cars often? (genuine question).

also clubs, schools etc are not financial institutions - I appreciate that CUs were not originally setup to be businesses but if they're handling millions of euros then they need to be held to a higher set of standards than the local GAA club.

They are.

Wheety

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

I would guess that most of that 30% was probably accounted for by Rush CU. Also any draw must be presided over by an independent solicitor or other.

Most of the 30% would not be accounted for by Rush CU as that is only one branch. It is only counted once in this stat.

Birdie Num Num

Wheety wrote: »

Most of the 30% would not be accounted for by Rush CU as that is only one branch. It is only counted once in this stat.

Still there is nothing wrong with members as directors or staff winning in a draw. There was an issue in Rush CU.

ED E

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

Still there is nothing wrong with members as directors or staff winning in a draw.

You keep telling yourself that. The rest of the nation will continue to disagree.

Wheety

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

Still there is nothing wrong with members as directors or staff winning in a draw. There was an issue in Rush CU.

Rush was obviously a badly run CU but the Central Bank have said staff won prizes in 30% of branches. So Rush would only count once.

Some tabloids have run with 30% of cars across all Credit Unions were won by staff.

namloc1980

I would have thought normal governance in any business meant staff/directors are excluded from any prize draws/competitions that that business runs. Can't believe the credit unions allowed this in the first place, leaves them wide open to negative publicity and possible rigging of draws.

Birdie Num Num

Wheety wrote: »

Rush was obviously a badly run CU but the Central Bank have said staff won prizes in 30% of branches. So Rush would only count once.

Some tabloids have run with 30% of cars across all Credit Unions were won by staff.

No the CB have said that staff or directors won in 30% of CUs that run draws. Now think of the amount of draws that happen in a 2.5 year period in all CUs and that CUs are owned by members, run by directors who are members and in some instances staffed by people who may or may not be members. ....And that draws MUST be presided over an independent commissioner of oaths or solicitor. In much the same way as the National Lottery.

Henry Ford III

If the staff bought c.30% of the tickets then it's quite reasonable for them to win c.30% of the prizes.

Is there an actual allegation of draw fixing?

Birdie Num Num

Henry Ford III wrote: »

If the staff bought c.30% of the tickets then it's quite reasonable for them to win c.30% of the prizes.

Is there an actual allegation of draw fixing?

Ah Jaysus. Tickets for what? Train tickets?

superman28

From a different forum,, someone smarter than me figured out the real numbers. See below.



128 (46%) of credit unions operate a prize draw

Approximately 446,000 members participate in prize draws, an increase of circa 46,000 from 2015 to 2017

Circa 85% of credit unions allow staff and directors to participate in prize draws.
In approximately 30% of credit unions who operate prize draws, staff and directors have won prizes over the period
October 2014 to March 2017.

128 credit unions had draws over the period
Assuming they had monthly draws, that would be 128 x 30 months or 3,840 draws.
Staff and directors in 30% of 128 credit unions won prizes - so that would be 38 prizes in total (assuming only one win in each credit union.)

So the right summary would be c.1% of prizes were won by credit union staff and directors

All the draws are probably not monthly.
In some Credit Unions, the staff probably won more than once.
In 15% of Credit Unions, the staff were not allowed enter.

But 1% is closer to the 30% reported in the Irish Times and elsewhere.

loyatemu

superman28 wrote: »

From a different forum,, someone smarter than me figured out the real numbers. See below.



128 (46%) of credit unions operate a prize draw

Approximately 446,000 members participate in prize draws, an increase of circa 46,000 from 2015 to 2017

Circa 85% of credit unions allow staff and directors to participate in prize draws.
In approximately 30% of credit unions who operate prize draws, staff and directors have won prizes over the period
October 2014 to March 2017.

128 credit unions had draws over the period
Assuming they had monthly draws, that would be 128 x 30 months or 3,840 draws.
Staff and directors in 30% of 128 credit unions won prizes - so that would be 38 prizes in total (assuming only one win in each credit union.)

So the right summary would be c.1% of prizes were won by credit union staff and directors

All the draws are probably not monthly.
In some Credit Unions, the staff probably won more than once.
In 15% of Credit Unions, the staff were not allowed enter.

But 1% is closer to the 30% reported in the Irish Times and elsewhere.

so what percentage of the 446,000 are staff and directors? People are rightly suspicious of this after what happened in Rush

draws MUST be presided over an independent commissioner of oaths or solicitor.

did that happen in Rush? If not, how do we know it's happening elsewhere. There's a simple way to fix this, and 15% of the CUs have already figured it out.

Birdie Num Num

loyatemu wrote: »

so what percentage of the 446,000 are staff and directors? People are rightly suspicious of this after what happened in Rush



did that happen in Rush? If not, how do we know it's happening elsewhere. There's a simple way to fix this, and 15% of the CUs have already figured it out.

I don't know what happened in Rush but there was obvious irregularities. There was a report done on foot of that.

There are rightly procedures and safeguards in place. The question remains for an organisation that is owned by members and run by and for it's members, should some members be excluded from a draw because they are directors or in some cases are staff? No I don't think so. That would be unfair.

The report which I haven't read in full, Under 'Operation of Prize Draws' says:
'“To avoid reputational risk, and ensure independence and impartiality, all staff and volunteers directly involved in the operation of the prize draw should be excluded from participating in the prize draw.”

CeilingFly

Sperman28 post is mathematically correct.

Still not good for staff to be allowed enter draws and you can be sure of a fr ted type scenario in some of them

Unfortunately saying less than 1% of prizes went to staff and directors who bought tickets would simply not suit the sensationalist hysterical headlines of today's media.

jk23

Number 11!! I said number 11

twowheelsonly

ED E wrote: »

You keep telling yourself that. The rest of the nation will continue to disagree.

Depends on where they get their news from !!

Superman28s' post would be more along my line of thinking as well.

Not all CU members participate in these draws but in all likelihood most staff members and directors do. I'd imagine that some branches have a very low takeup of participants. Many people just stick their money in the CU and have no more involvement, others get actively involved and go on to work for them or even become Directors. These people are more likely to take part in the draws etc and hence.......

I'd say if the figure of winning employees and directors even comes within a whisper of 5% in total then it's a lot but I doubt that it's even that high.

As an aside... I am a member of a CU but a 'non-active' member and have no relation to or doubt that I even know anyone working in one. Personally though I have no problem with these people entering the draw.

CeilingFly

loyatemu wrote: »

so what percentage of the 446,000 are staff and directors? People are rightly suspicious of this after what happened in Rush



did that happen in Rush? If not, how do we know it's happening elsewhere. There's a simple way to fix this, and 15% of the CUs have already figured it out.

There are 4,000 staff and directors and almost 10,000 volunteers.

Rush was a mess - mainly caused by giving loans out like confetti at a wedding with little or no credit checks

Johngoose

They’ll have no luck for it, have they not seen the Fr. Ted episode?

Orchids

All cu directors & board members are volunteers, surely they should be allowed enter the draw, if they're members & not getting paid, seems a bit unfair to exclude them? Exclude staff maybe but not volunteers

Avatar MIA

Orchids wrote: »

All cu directors & board members are volunteers, surely they should be allowed enter the draw, if they're members & not getting paid, seems a bit unfair to exclude them? Exclude staff maybe but not volunteers

It's not just about being fair, but being seen to be fair. The vast majority of the members of a CU are normal members with zero influence over the running of the CU and should be able to believe there is no bias.

Do such draws get rigged - it seems they do. A CU has an obligation to be as transparent as possible, therefore NO insider should be eligible.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

gjim

Why are CUs running car raffles at all? Isn’t part of the credit union vision to educate members about personal finance and how to manage personal finances responsibly? It’s difficult to think of a worse way of doing this than promoting the purchase of raffle or lottery tickets.

I suppose credit unions running blackjack and roulette tables or slot machines would be worse but they’re just different forms of gambling. I simply don’t see any justification for credit unions to be involved in offering any type of gambling related products at all.

They should stick to their mandate of providing community based finance and support and financial education to their members.