Overtourism

_Dara_

This is a topic I've been pondering for a while. Last summer, as I was jetting off to Lisbon on honeymoon, stories started to break in the media about an anti-tourism demonstration that was happening in Barcelona. We were travelling at peak season, August, because for various reasons that was the only time that suited us. I had never travelled anywhere in peak season before and I knew it would be busy but I was not at all prepared for exactly how busy it would be. Before I continue, let me acknowledge that I'm part of the problem. I'm not special, I'm a tourist like anyone else. We had to skip some of the sites in Lisbon because we'd have been standing in a queue for up to two hours to get in and I physically can't do that.

When I got back, I read more about the demonstrations in Barcelona. I read that there are five times as many overnight visitors to the city as there was twenty years ago and between 2013 and 2015, the overnight tourist numbers rose by 600,000.

Iceland is another country that has seen tourism take off since 2010 thanks to both a big marketing campaign, cheap flights, Airbnb and the volcanic eruption that piqued people's interest in the country. It has been experiencing some problems because of it, although the country seems mostly happy with the increased tourism as it helped get them out of an economic hole. And, again, I'm part of it because I was there six months ago.

I guess what I've been wondering about is what is the solution here? Certain cities and countries have started to strictly restrict tourist numbers and cap the amount of cruise ships that can dock at their ports. But if everywhere eventually does this, will tourism become an elitist pursuit again? Shouldn't everyone have the right to travel? But as the global population increases will popular tourist areas become overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of tourists and will it mean that the cost of tourism outweighs the benefits to the local economy?

What do people think?

_Brian

Allot of the protests were sparked by Air BnB for tourists rather than tourists themselves.
Tourists have shifted away from custom accommodation to Air BnB which has taken much rental stock out of the system, driving up rents and driving people out of city centre living.

Hande hoche!

Sure the Portuguese will be happy with more tourists if the Spanish aren't.

Ajsoprano

I work on a Dublin building site and witness a lot of cultures everyday. Seen a fella crouch down on his hunkers the other day eating Aldi jarred sausages with one hand and bread with the other. He was making the sandwhich in his mouth. Amazing what you learn.

wakka12

No travel should not be a right . Rights should be for something you cannot live with out or would massively affect quality of life without it.

And well I think its up to the city and its citizens to decide whether to restrict tourism. Its totally up to them. There will always be places to visit even if the current tourist hot spots completely shut down, which won't happen .Maybe people will start to appreciate africa or other less well known tourist spots outside of the traditional tourist cities in europe. There will never be so many tourists that there won't be any places left to travel to relatively cheaply for a holiday
I think barcelona, london , paris and venice should all restrict tourism, even if it meant higher price for me to visit them I think it'd be worth it for us all in the long run as the sheer numbers of tourists ruin those cities to quite a significant extent imo

Theres hundreds of cities in france, italy ,spain, netherlands, england that are just as nice and interesting as their capitals and large cities that attract the vast majority of the country's tourism, many you've probably never even heard of. Much less have so many tourists that they need to ban tourism

Sky King

Santorini. It sure is pretty but mother of god...It's like a Greece themed amusement park absolutely rammed with tourists and massive groups of Japanese who are descend on shops and restaurants en masse. No locals... no local flavours in tavernas full of Greeks. Horrible experience. And that was June a couple of years ago apparently it's even worse now.

_Dara_

Sky King wrote: »

Santorini. It sure is pretty but mother of god...It's like a Greece themed amusement park absolutely rammed with tourists and massive groups of Japanese who are descend on shops and restaurants en masse. No locals... no local flavours in tavernas full of Greeks. Horrible experience. And that was June a couple of years ago apparently it's even worse now.

Oh yeah, Santorini is actually one of the destinations that has imposed restrictions!

In Lisbon, the real eye-opener for me was seeing a queue snake down the street in Belem in the noon heat for the famous pastelaria there. Insane. Those are the box-ticking tourists, the bucket listers. Meanwhile there was a pastelaria on my hotel’s street that sold pastel de natas that were as highly rated but no queues.

_Dara_

Interesting, balanced Financial Times article about Iceland’s tourist boom:

https://www.ft.com/content/44ebbfee-025e-11e7-aa5b-6bb07f5c8e12

Cookie_Monster

A lot of NZ has the same issue, Queenstown in particular, the infrastructure just cannot cope with the tourist demand. The council at least have started charging people commercial rate son their properties if they let them on AirBnB for more than a certain number of days per year so it's at least getting something back to fund improve roads, water etc.

Venice is rebelling against all the cruise ships as well.

Sky King

Cruise ships are a bit of a disaster because basically people just want to get off tick a few boxes and get back on again the same day. You really don't have timefor4 considered exploration. You rarely get further than the Port town which is always mobbed with people off the same ship as you!

LirW

Dunno, I never see any tourists in our shticks pub, be grand. (I'm the filthy quota foreigner in the village, who am I to judge)

_Dara_

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

A lot of NZ has the same issue, Queenstown in particular, the infrastructure just cannot cope with the tourist demand. The council at least have started charging people commercial rate son their properties if they let them on AirBnB for more than a certain number of days per year so it's at least getting something back to fund improve roads, water etc.

Venice is rebelling against all the cruise ships as well.

I think the main gripe with cruise ships is that they bring a lot of people but not much money. The people aren’t staying there so they might buy lunch and a few souvenirs and that’s it. A lot of disruption with little benefit.

Sky King

_Dara_ wrote: »

I think the main gripe with cruise ships is that they bring a lot of people but not much money. The people aren’t staying there so they might buy lunch and a few souvenirs and that’s it. A lot of disruption with little benefit.

Yes and a lot of the excursions are run by the cruise ship company and are over the top expensive but really are the only ones that can be availed of easily

_Dara_

Having said that, there are some attractions in Dublin that attract huge numbers of tourists but I’ve never felt put out or displaced by tourists in the city. I went to Trinity and would walk past the long queues for the Long Library and Book of Kells but it never bothered me.

RDM_83 again

Its one of those things, people complain about extreme levels of migration changing their area or city and its racist uneducated working class hatred.
People complain about mass tourism changing their hidden gems and its hold my Prosseco darling we need to work out a solution!, some reason its a whole different thing even though the change is likely less profound compared to what you see in some parts of England for example.

In short both are rooted in the desire for places to stay the same and retain their character and identity, one good, one bad.

_Dara_

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Its one of those things, people complain about extreme levels of migration changing their area or city and its racist uneducated working class hatred.
People complain about mass tourism changing their hidden gems and its hold my Prosseco darling we need to work out a solution!, some reason its a whole different thing even though the change is likely less profound compared to what you see in some parts of England for example.

Yeah, I have to smile at tourists grousing about other tourists. On some travel blogs, I’ve seen writers complain that they had to wait for ages for other tourists to get out of the way so that they could take a shot free of people. No self-awareness there.

wakka12

Apparently dublin has huge numbers of tourists like in the top 10 in european cities but for some reason it just doesnt feel like it. I wonder why you don't have foreign men from north african selling tat on streets in dublin like in london paris venice barecelona and other big tourist cities. I think thats a major reason why dublin doesnt feel quite as touristy tbh

swift18

tourists out
refugees in

_Dara_

wakka12 wrote: »

Apparently dublin has huge numbers of tourists like in the top 10 in european cities but for some reason it just doesnt feel like it. I wonder why you don't have foreign men from north african selling tat on streets in dublin like in london paris venice barecelona and other big tourist cities. I think thats a major reason why dublin doesnt feel quite as touristy tbh

Yeah, it doesn’t ever feel overrun. Even when I cut through Templebar to get to the Quays, it doesn’t feel completely thronged. I think that’s why Lisbon was such a surprise to me. But there were places in Lisbon that I loved that were less busy. The Padrão Dos Descobrimentos monument gave an amazing view of the harbour and was a lot less thronged than the other nearby sites and the Museu Colecção Berardo was cool and was an oasis of calm.

The Lisbon Aquarium and the Timeout Market were two of the worst experiences of my life. But I learned a lot from the trip, namely you don’t have to go somewhere just because it’s in a guidebook.

swift18

from berlin

swift18

barcelona

joeysoap

2 hour queues outside that pastry shop on a cold October Sunday last year too. Definitely box ticking as the custard tarts (:pac:) are everywhere. Tourism gone mad. Right beside it is a magnificent monastery. Nearly empty.

_Dara_

joeysoap wrote: »

2 hour queues outside that pastry shop on a cold October Sunday last year too. Definitely box ticking as the custard tarts (:pac:) are everywhere. Tourism gone mad. Right beside it is a magnificent monastery. Nearly empty.

Are you serious? That’s mad, I was thinking it was just because it was August. Absolute madness. I mean, pastel de natas are nice but seriously, lads, they’re just custard and pastry. We gawped at the queue in disbelief as we walked past. Though on the monastery: that’s one place we didn’t get to go because of the crazy queues. It was peak tour bus season.

joeysoap

Few Japanese busses but bar that......cold and windy, there was nobody going to the Monastery. We caught a tram back to the city a few hours later, the queues to the bun shop were still there.

PowerToWait

Ajsoprano wrote: »

I work on a Dublin building site and witness a lot of cultures everyday. Seen a fella crouch down on his hunkers the other day eating Aldi jarred sausages with one hand and bread with the other. He was making the sandwhich in his mouth. Amazing what you learn.

I found that very funny.

I try to avoid the big touristy areas. Sounds wankerish but I hate being surrounded by tourists. I go somewhere cheap where it'll be warm and I can sit drinking beer for a quid a go and reading and can tip a guy half a day's wages for less than the cost of 2 pints here and just have the beer flowing. :P I'll go for a walk for an hour or two and take in some sights or go on a boat for a tenner. God I love being on my own. :P

Franz Von Peppercorn

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Its one of those things, people complain about extreme levels of migration changing their area or city and its racist uneducated working class hatred.
People complain about mass tourism changing their hidden gems and its hold my Prosseco darling we need to work out a solution!, some reason its a whole different thing even though the change is likely less profound compared to what you see in some parts of England for example.

In short both are rooted in the desire for places to stay the same and retain their character and identity, one good, one bad.

So true. Interesting that people believe that countries can’t control migration but cities can control tourism - which is temporary migration.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

A lot of NZ has the same issue, Queenstown in particular, the infrastructure just cannot cope with the tourist demand. The council at least have started charging people commercial rate son their properties if they let them on AirBnB for more than a certain number of days per year so it's at least getting something back to fund improve roads, water etc.

Venice is rebelling against all the cruise ships as well.

NZ gets pretty low tourism relative to is size. Both islands are bigger than Ireland and the country gets one third of our numbers.

Relative to their size European countries get huge number of tourists. France gets 70-80M. Italy about 60M.

Relative to population we get a lot - about 10M (all Ireland figures). One place in Dublin that feels over touristy is Howth midsummer when warm. Weekends particularly.

wakka12

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

NZ gets pretty low tourism relative to is size. Both islands are bigger than Ireland and the country gets one third of our numbers.

Relative to their size European countries get huge number of tourists. Italy gets 70-80M.

https://www.travelagentcentral.com/running-your-business/stats-europe-was-most-visited-continent-2016

58% of the entire planets tourists visit europe,less than 10% of the worlds population is european(figure would be even more dramatic if only western europe was counted, Id say close to 80% of them visit western europe). and Im sure a large amount of that group only visit a number of major tourists cities within europe

http://europolitan.org/europes-visited-cities/

There were approx 600 million tourist visits to europe in 2016.
Of those 600 million, around 100 million tourists visited just 14 cities. Paris, London,Istanbul, Barcelona, amsterdam,milan ,rome, vienna,prague, dublin, madrid, munich and berlin

This means dublin is a seriously important city globally in terms of tourist numbers which is interesting

metaoblivia

That's funny because I just planned a trip that includes stays in Lisbon and Barcelona for later this year. I don't think late November is the high tourist season though, so hopefully I don't run into too many angry Barcelonans.

In San Francisco, they've passed some local laws to help curtail the crowds in some areas. For example, Lombard Street, "the windiest street in the world " (it's not) is a huge draw for tourists. But it's also a residential area with some very wealthy inhabitants who don't like people clogging up their street during the high season. They've restricted tourist bus access to the area (some other areas of SF have done this too) and they've floated ideas like closing the street down completely to all non local traffic (including pedestrians) during certain hours, charging tourists to walk/drive the street, having parking and police attendants present to monitor crowd sizes, etc. In this way, San Francisco isn't limiting the amount of tourists who come into the city, but they are pinpointing certain spots where it's become a problem for the residents and have taken steps to make it more inconvenient for tourists.

I think restricting the number of cruise ships can help because like others have pointed out, the city isn't really benefiting from those tourists in the way they are from tourists who stay in the city.

_Dara_

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

One place in Dublin that feels over touristy is Howth midsummer when warm. Weekends particularly.

YES. Fuck yes. I forgot about Howth. It is awful on any sunny, even remotely warm day.

Iceland has a more stark ratio: 2,000,000 people visited in 2017. Pop: 300,000.

Pero_Bueno

I was in Lisbon last Easter, we went to Sintra and it was the worst touristic experience I have had in my life, it was so packed it was just impossible to enjoy.
I was in Iceland aswell in September and it was bad - but was easy to find your own spot and escape from the droves of idiots*.

My fear is that even these out of the way areas that you can find some space will become packed, thanks to apps like tripadvisor, instantly they get tagged and some
travel blogger tosser writes a hit piece on it and it goes viral - always find it amazing when someone who bloggs about the hidden unspoilt places is actually spoiling them
by ****ing writing about them.

In the Grand Canyon years ago (2014) I noticed too that the village was packed - but - take a 10 minute walk and you can easily by alone ... again - how long this will last ??

And Ireland - I am afraid to return to the west , the place where I had my best childhood holidays in the 80s and 90s - I was at the cliffs of Moher in 2006 and nearly cried when I saw the
tacky **** they have put up - I remember when it was a dirt track up there and you would be the only visitors to the place.
Now its coach after coach of Americans who think they are visiting their ancestral homeland.
And Skellig Micheal !! f*ck that ... it's Star Wars now ... isn't it great that Disney left Luke Skywalkers huts on the island though - just to make the selfies cooler ??

**** this I can't wait till the next crash.



*Yes I am one of those idiots.

wakka12

Im not personally bothered by being around other tourists or going to 'tourist traps', Id only find it annoying if there was crowds so big that it was actually uncomfortable to move or very loud . Many people seem to be really put out by being around other tourists even if they are one themselves. I don't get it,the tourist traps are usually interesting even if overpriced or a little overrated, they're attracting tourists for a reason

I find it a lot more cringy seeing people going over to somewhere and trying to be like a local, or something, when they're jus like every other uncultured tourist :P

_Dara_

wakka12 wrote: »

Im not personally bothered by being around other tourists or going to 'tourist traps', Id only find it annoying if there was crowds so big that it was actually uncomfortable to move or very loud . Many people seem to be really put out by being around other tourists even if they are one themselves. I don't get it,the tourist traps are usually interesting even if overpriced or a little overrated, they're attracting tourists for a reason

I find it a lot more cringy seeing people going over to somewhere and trying to be like a local, or something, when they're jus like every other uncultured tourist :P

Some of the places in Lisbon were at that uncomfortable level. The aquarium was absolutely brutal. I can’t believe they let so many people in. The Timeout market was stressful too and tbh, I regret going there because it is a purpose-built tourist trap.

Whereas in Iceland, the level of the September crowds was grand. There was lots of tourists but these were in wide open spaces.

wakka12

wakka12 wrote: »

Im not personally bothered by being around other tourists or going to 'tourist traps', Id only find it annoying if there was crowds so big that it was actually uncomfortable to move or very loud . Many people seem to be really put out by being around other tourists even if they are one themselves. I don't get it,the tourist traps are usually interesting even if overpriced or a little overrated, they're attracting tourists for a reason

I find it a lot more cringy seeing people going over to somewhere and trying to be like a local, or something, when they're jus like every other uncultured tourist :P

For me it's just about money. :P

_Dara_

wakka12 wrote: »

I find it a lot more cringy seeing people going over to somewhere and trying to be like a local, or something, when they're jus like every other uncultured tourist :P

Well, at least they are trying to gain some understanding of the local culture. I doubt anyone would call themselves an expert after a short holiday either.

joeysoap

My last post on this (promise)

Off peak season I find all the ‘usual’ tourist destination to be fine, ok haven’t been to Venice, but the rest were fine, Sintra was not bad at all (that was Easter). Istanbul was fairly packed alright (October) but that was mostly locals. One street was like Henry Street on Christmas Eve- all the time. Near Taxim Square. What I did learn in Istanbul is that when they celebrate a holiday (end of Ramadan) all public transport is (or was) free, including ferries across the Bosporus , and that little cable car spin. Can’t wait for that to happen here.

ameirecan

Why do tourists take photos of the famous landmarks when they travel? It's utterly pointless. There are literally millions of photos of the Eiffel tower online, taken from every conceivable angle and viewpoint, and done by professionals at a much higher quality than the ones you took on your iPhone. I remember watching a Chinese tourist spend about 15 minutes setting up his tripod and adjusting his camera lens to get the perfect photo of the Eiffel tower. What do people gain from this?

Bob Harris

ameirecan wrote: »

Why do tourists take photos of the famous landmarks when they travel? It's utterly pointless. There are literally millions of photos of the Eiffel tower online, taken from every conceivable angle and viewpoint, and done by professionals at a much higher quality than the ones you took on your iPhone. I remember watching a Chinese tourist spend about 15 minutes setting up his tripod and adjusting his camera lens to get the perfect photo of the Eiffel tower. What do people gain from this?

I remember thinking the same in the Louvre. People were 3 or 4 deep around the Mona Lisa clambouring for a postion to take a photo of it so they could have it buried deep in their memory card never to be looked at again. Buy a postcard on the way out for 50c. Perfect image of the painting. And you have a postcard.

irishguitarlad

_Dara_ wrote: »

Some of the places in Lisbon were at that uncomfortable level. The aquarium was absolutely brutal. I can’t believe they let so many people in. The Timeout market was stressful too and tbh, I regret going there because it is a purpose-built tourist trap.

Whereas in Iceland, the level of the September crowds was grand. There was lots of tourists but these were in wide open spaces.

I'm heading there during holy week to avoid the madness of Seville. I can't get over with what you said about the tarts, the monastery is a UNESCO world heritage sight like. Anyways when I was in Florence I didn't enjoy the Ufizzi as there was two many chinese tourists blocking the paintings and taking photos of them. The only good part was the non Italian painters as it was off to the side and not many people went in there, so one could relax and enjoy the art.

Skedaddle

I can fully understand why cruise ships are annoying. Effectively, you're sailing a huge hotel into often a very historic area or places like Iceland and the Scottish islands which have extremely low populations and very little physical infrastructure to deal with vast numbers of people.

Then those tourists don't spend any money as they have everything on the ship and are in all-in packages. So they just arrive, walk around like a herd of sheep, clog the place up and use all the facilities and spend little or nothing.

Effectively, the destination is subsidising the cruise operator and setting far less benefit than they would from a normal tourists.

Iceland will probably choke on tourism tbh. They need it to get money in to the economy after the crash but at the same time they're finding it irritating due to the scale and it's also becoming eye wateringly expensive again.

I could see Iceland managing it back down again over the next few years, particularly as other aspects of their economy spin back into action.

You can also kill a tourism destination by over commercialising it too. That's where Iceland I think needs to keep the balance.

The J Stands for Jay

irishguitarlad wrote: »

I'm heading there during holy week to avoid the madness of Seville. I can't get over with what you said about the tarts, the monastery is a UNESCO world heritage sight like. Anyways when I was in Florence I didn't enjoy the Ufizzi as there was two many chinese tourists blocking the paintings and taking photos of them. The only good part was the non Italian painters as it was off to the side and not many people went in there, so one could relax and enjoy the art.

TBH, when I went to Florence I didn't go into any of the galleries. Didn't see the point of queuing up to join a queue to squint through a crowd at a painting. It was much nicer wandering round the place.

_Dara_

irishguitarlad wrote: »

I'm heading there during holy week to avoid the madness of Seville. I can't get over with what you said about the tarts, the monastery is a UNESCO world heritage sight like. Anyways when I was in Florence I didn't enjoy the Ufizzi as there was two many chinese tourists blocking the paintings and taking photos of them. The only good part was the non Italian painters as it was off to the side and not many people went in there, so one could relax and enjoy the art.

Oh, at peak times the monastery has similar queues. We didn’t bother with the monastery, the queues were so formidable.

_Dara_

Skedaddle wrote: »

I can fully understand why cruise ships are annoying. Effectively, you're sailing a huge hotel into often a very historic area or places like Iceland and the Scottish islands which have extremely low populations and very little physical infrastructure to deal with vast numbers of people.

Then those tourists don't spend any money as they have everything on the ship and are in all-in packages. So they just arrive, walk around like a herd of sheep, clog the place up and use all the facilities and spend little or nothing.

Effectively, the destination is subsidising the cruise operator and setting far less benefit than they would from a normal tourists.

Iceland will probably choke on tourism tbh. They need it to get money in to the economy after the crash but at the same time they're finding it irritating due to the scale and it's also becoming eye wateringly expensive again.

I could see Iceland managing it back down again over the next few years, particularly as other aspects of their economy spin back into action.

You can also kill a tourism destination by over commercialising it too. That's where Iceland I think needs to keep the balance.

And Iceland has a very delicate natural environment. Off-road driving is illegal there because of that but people do it anyway, damaging the environment. They also are having problems with tourists getting into car crashes because they can’t handle the roads that are gravelly and many travel in winter to see the Lights but can’t hack the winter driving conditions. Landowners have also been closing off roads due to issues with tourists.

It’s such a special place though and I can see why people want to go there. I loved it!

TomSweeney

I remember being in Rome once - Christ the Cistine chapel was a ****ing nightmare!!!!

Could not enjoy it !

St Peters sq and church was fine, we went really early and again - open spaces is grand.
Same for the colleseum, but Cistine chapel I would never ever set foot in again.

irishguitarlad

_Dara_ wrote: »

Oh, at peak times the monastery has similar queues. We didn’t bother with the monastery, the queues were so formidable.

Balls

irishguitarlad

McGaggs wrote: »

TBH, when I went to Florence I didn't go into any of the galleries. Didn't see the point of queuing up to join a queue to squint through a crowd at a painting. It was much nicer wandering round the place.

The Bargello was worth it though;)

munchkin_utd

I must be lucky with my travels. Was at Lake Garda at height of summer and never a problem getting a place in a restaurant nor were the towns particularly full. Also been a few times over easter and also grand, accommodation relatively cheap and no crowds anywhere.
Was also in Bruges in mid summer and not an issue.
Windsor castle was busy in England to see some poxy dolls house, but in around the place was grand.
London city, grand.
The cotswolds in peak summer season, grand.
Galway in mid august, grand.
Anywhere I've been in Germany or Austria during the peak summer holidays, grand.

I've seen yanks on trip advisor asking how to avoid "the crowds" during the holidays, but really theres so many places that arent overran that I do wonder if its really only the few places like Lisbon, Barca, Amsterdam and Venice that are overran and everywhere else is grand.

_Dara_

irishguitarlad wrote: »

Balls

Another poster was there off peak and said it was empty, so you might be fine! I was there in August.

topper75

swift18 wrote: »

barcelona

Barcelona is a wonderful city.

But note that it is also the European epicentre of contrarian ne'er-do-wells and student marxists.

Ignore them and enjoy.

Skedaddle

_Dara_ wrote: »

And Iceland has a very delicate natural environment. Off-road driving is illegal there because of that but people do it anyway, damaging the environment. They also are having problems with tourists getting into car crashes because they can’t handle the roads that are gravelly and many travel in winter to see the Lights but can’t hack the winter driving conditions. Landowners have also been closing off roads due to issues with tourists.

It’s such a special place though and I can see why people want to go there. I loved it!

We encountered a bit of a weird issue with what was obviously tourists in a rental car, driving up close behind us and flashing because we were driving at or below the 70km/h speed limit!!?

Given the road conditions, that kind of stuff is crazy.