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Free MRI Scan's for over 40's countrywide?

2

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 17,911 ✭✭✭✭ _Brian


    Having endured maybe 10 mri’s is sugfest this is a mad idea.

    Why use a really expensive investigation when people could and should just go to their gp once a year for a decent checkup, if anything is seen then further investigation is a good idea.

    Maybe a free gp checkup for PAYE workers similar to free dentist visit.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,661 ✭✭✭✭ OldMrBrennan83


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,911 ✭✭✭✭ _Brian


    If people attended their gp for an annual medical lots of additional cases of cancers and other illnesses would be caught, will they catch everything - no, but then an MRI won’t catch everything either and it would cost mad money, between machine time and radiographers to review all these pointless scans.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,661 ✭✭✭✭ OldMrBrennan83


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,856 ✭✭✭ BailMeOut


    I wish people would stop using the word 'free' when it relates to state funded services as they are never free! Example 'Free GP Care' should be referred to 'Tax Payer Funded GP Care".


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,399 ✭✭✭ Nonoperational


    Just wouldn't work and you'd have the system bogged down with incidentalomas to breaking point. Screening needs very specific conditions to be met to be effective.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,292 ✭✭✭✭ mariaalice


    Patww79 wrote: »
    They take your blood pressure, weigh you, and do fasting bloods if you're lucky. That will catch very little.

    The option should be there, especially if you have an ongoing issue, to be able to ring up and book one yourself. I'm not saying they should be free, but they should be available.[/QUOTE

    Hypochondriacs charter, plus its shown not make much difference in outcomes and it would be a complete waste of resources.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,661 ✭✭✭✭ OldMrBrennan83


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭ Andy From Sligo


    _Brian wrote: »
    Having endured maybe 10 mri’s is sugfest this is a mad idea.

    Why use a really expensive investigation when people could and should just go to their gp once a year for a decent checkup, if anything is seen then further investigation is a good idea.

    Maybe a free gp checkup for PAYE workers similar to free dentist visit.

    I dont know about anyone else's GP's but particularly my own GP as good as they are (sometimes) do not have magical powers to detect stuff that a scan can , they cannot look at organs in 3D with their eyes nor take away layers of the organ like you can with MRI results.

    and dont get me started on when GP's mis-diagnose or dont detect the underlying problem that is making you ill - most of the time they are at best pill dispensers ... (paid by the pharmaceutical companies - ooh, arent i cynical? LOL :) )


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,508 ✭✭✭ Martina1991


    As a screening tool MRIs are not cost effective or realistic with waiting lists.

    Screening tools already exist in the form of routine blood tests.
    -PSA: Prostate cancer
    -Beta HCG: Pregnancy and testicular cancer
    - Ca153: Breast cancer
    - Ca 125: Ovarian cancer
    - Ca19.9: Pancreatic cancer
    - CEA: Colorectal cancer
    - AFP: Liver cancer
    - ProBNP: Cardiac deficiency
    - Lipid Profile: Risk of cardiovascular disease.

    However, if your GP does not request these tests, disease will not be detected.

    Be in the know about your own test results and your own health.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭ Andy From Sligo


    cannot find it now - but there was an advert on UK TV channels years ago think it was 180quid and they showed a fella going into (what I presume) a MRI Scanner - and it said about checking for early diagnosis of strokes, angina, heart attacks and anuerisms etc.. print out at the end (to presumably give to your doctor or specialist) - good to give you peace of mind.

    As you get older a lot of people you do get to thinking "are these just normal headaches or is it something more serious" or if you get out of breath "is it just because I am not fit or is my heart working right" (hypochondriac I suppose some could describe it as) and then you just get others say "when its time to go , your times up" - and then there are other that just simply do not want to go to the doctors/GP because they might not like needles or for some other reason.

    OK if not a scan for all over 40's say what about for people on their notes where there is a history in the family of something medical - say if a persons mother or father is suffering from angina or passed away from heart attack or something or who had an aneurysm or something or neurological disease . How about just scanning this sector to make sure they havent inherited something and if they have then catch it early if it can.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,629 ✭✭✭ Rubberchikken


    Why do i click into these posts:eek: must not :p


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,812 ✭✭✭ Wesser


    sugarman wrote: »
    Wesser wrote: »
    Your GPis slow to order one for you because he feels you don't need it.
    There i s a massive waiting list for MRI scan for people who actually need one. By ordering one that you don't need your GP is just making the waiting list longer for everyone else.

    Nonsense! If your GP suspects in the slightest you need one, they will write you a referral no problem ..and even if you request one yourself, if only to put you at ease, your GP will also write you a referral. Its nothing on him or her!

    Noticed how I said referral too. They do not "order" an MRI. They write referral letters you can take to either a private clinic or public clinic of your choice. It doesn't even have to be in Ireland!


    It's not nonsense at all. Like I said, a GP will.only refer you for one if need one. Which is what you then stated yourself...if your GP suspects that you need one they will do a referral for you. You are actually agreeing with me .


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,812 ✭✭✭ Wesser


    OK if not a scan for all over 40's say what about for people on their notes where there is a history in the family of something medical - say if a persons mother or father is suffering from angina or passed away from heart attack or something or who had an aneurysm or something or neurological disease . How about just scanning this sector to make sure they havent inherited something and if they have then catch it early if it can.[/quote]

    Such a system is already in place, in the form of blood pressure checks, ECG s, weight, glucose, lipids, with your GP and cardiology referral for an exercise stress test and angio if needed. Happens every day across the country. Not an MRI in sight.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 88,852 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Capt'n Midnight


    mariaalice wrote: »
    Hypochondriacs? They'd be fairly minimal if it cost a couple of grand.
    But they might really have Munchausen by Proxy :eek:


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭ Andy From Sligo


    Why do i click into these posts:eek: must not :p

    maybe an MRI scan on the brain may show up why haha :)

    you have an underlying desire to click on my posts to see if your missing something good :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭ Andy From Sligo


    Wesser wrote: »
    OK if not a scan for all over 40's say what about for people on their notes where there is a history in the family of something medical - say if a persons mother or father is suffering from angina or passed away from heart attack or something or who had an aneurysm or something or neurological disease . How about just scanning this sector to make sure they havent inherited something and if they have then catch it early if it can.

    Such a system is already in place, in the form of blood pressure checks, ECG s, weight, glucose, lipids, with your GP and cardiology referral for an exercise stress test and angio if needed. Happens every day across the country. Not an MRI in sight.[/QUOTE]

    are all those tests accurate enough to detect early? - or are they chosen because they are cheaper than having a scan for the health service?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭ Anita Blow


    Such a system is already in place, in the form of blood pressure checks, ECG s, weight, glucose, lipids, with your GP and cardiology referral for an exercise stress test and angio if needed. Happens every day across the country. Not an MRI in sight.

    are all those tests accurate enough to detect early? - or are they chosen because they are cheaper than having a scan for the health service?

    They are more accurate than an MRI for what they check. Imaging as a screening tool just isn't effective. Here's the WHO criteria a test has to meet for it to be considered in screening
    the condition should be an important health problem
    there should be a recognisable latent or early symptomatic stage
    the natural history of the condition, including development from latent to declared disease, should be adequately understood
    there should be an accepted treatment for patients with recognised disease
    there should be a suitable test or examination that has a high level of accuracy
    the test should be acceptable to the population
    there should be an agreed policy on whom to treat as patients
    facilities for diagnosis and treatment should be available
    the cost of screening (including diagnosis and treatment of patients diagnosed) should be economically balanced in relation to possible expenditure on medical care as a whole, and
    screening should be a continuing process and not a ‘once and for all’ project.
    If you can't define what specifically what you're looking for then it fails on the first test. Looking for anything that might pop up isn't appropriate because you have to know what you're looking for, so an MRI on otherwise healthy people wouldn't yield much information. And as someone mentioned above, you'd get tons of incidental findings that would have to be acted upon which would end up doing more damage to people with invasive tests for zero benefit


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,812 ✭✭✭ Wesser


    Wesser wrote: »
    OK if not a scan for all over 40's say what about for people on their notes where there is a history in the family of something medical - say if a persons mother or father is suffering from angina or passed away from heart attack or something or who had an aneurysm or something or neurological disease . How about just scanning this sector to make sure they havent inherited something and if they have then catch it early if it can.

    Such a system is already in place, in the form of blood pressure checks, ECG s, weight, glucose, lipids, with your GP and cardiology referral for an exercise stress test and angio if needed. Happens every day across the country. Not an MRI in sight.

    are all those tests accurate enough to detect early? - or are they chosen because they are cheaper than having a scan for the health service?[/quote]

    No they are just tests for risk factors.
    The ultimate test for heart disease is an angiogram which I already mentioned. It is an invasive test which carries risks. Ie you could have a cardiac arrest during an angiogram . So you could have no heart disease but end up dying as a result of a test to detect it. It is a very I vasuvevtest which is only done on the advice of a cardiologist and you would have to sign a consent form stating that you u sweat and the risks. The other less invasive option is a CT Anglo, but that obviously involves radiation, which has already been explained to you.

    In short there is no clear cut answer to wether or not everyone over 40 should have these tests. Is an question for each individual considering their own particular circumstances. Invasive expensive tests often cause harm.and worry for no reason.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭ Andy From Sligo


    if a competent consultant is looking at a clear MRI he will know what looks normal and what doesnt look normal surely?

    a dark area on a lung, an enlarged heart something quite not right looking on the brain from a heathy brain, surely?

    then if something abnormal shows up - then another back up scan(s) to confirm something or a biopsy or (if medication can help) some medication and a check up scan/exam


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 2,881 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Kurtosis


    This isn't a good idea, just overscreening which would result in overdiagnosis and overtreatment. OP, there's been plenty written on these topics, even for fairly well accepted screening like mammography for breast cancer - if you are interested in learning more on this it is worth reading some of these which may answer some of your questions e.g.
    https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2014/jan/03/patients-truth-health-screening-harm-good


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭ _Dara_


    if a competent consultant is looking at a clear MRI he will know what looks normal and what doesnt look normal surely?

    a dark area on a lung, an enlarged heart something quite not right looking on the brain from a heathy brain, surely?

    then if something abnormal shows up - then another back up scan(s) to confirm something or a biopsy or (if medication can help) some medication and a check up scan/exam

    No, false positives can happen. Scan a healthy person and you’ll probably spot something or other that is actually nothing. And some diseases are already overdiagnosed.

    And biopsies are painful and invasive. I’ve had a long needle shoved into my breast. And breast biopsies are one of the better ones.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,292 ✭✭✭✭ mariaalice


    It not as simple as it appears I had to have an ultras sound to confirm a condition and that was after a scan there might be some condition that are black and white so to speak but for lots, it's not as simple as that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭ Andy From Sligo


    Wesser wrote: »

    ....Invasive expensive tests often cause harm.and worry for no reason.

    yet for others could be a piece of mind ...


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,608 ✭✭✭ gctest50


    if a competent consultant is looking at a clear MRI he will know what looks normal and what doesnt look normal surely?

    a dark area on a lung, an enlarged heart something quite not right looking on the brain from a heathy brain, surely?

    then if something abnormal shows up - then another back up scan(s) to confirm something or a biopsy or (if medication can help) some medication and a check up scan/exam


    It "doesn't work like that " overall though

    You could be in the consultants office and get the "all clear"

    Then on the way home, develop cancer

    Whatcha going to do ? have a scan everyday ?




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭ Anita Blow


    You need more than piece of mind to justify very expensive and potentially invasive tests. It must meet the screening criteria.
    As said before, you don't MRI lungs or heart. You CT/XR/Angiogram them. You don't MRI a brain unless you know what you're looking for because an MRI isn't a magic test that picks up anything and everything, it requires different weightings/contrasts etc to pick up specific things. Hence you need to know what you're looking for.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭ Andy From Sligo


    any documentary's I have ever seen (have to rely on documentary's or soaps or drama programmes because i cannot get to see in real life - haha Casualty and Holby city mainly :) ) they have always (the doctors/specialists) looked at MRI scans and found something not looking right. - and i didnt think MRI was invasive?

    pretty sure they have looked at brains and seen a shadow and lungs and seen shadows on the lungs - on those programs , someonegoes upstairs on the wards and the doctor goes "I want an MRI scan to rule out ..." and dish MRI scans out like smarties

    So are they all factually incorrect then?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ Makenna Disgusting Miner


    any documentary's I have ever seen (have to rely on documentary's or soaps or drama programmes because i cannot get to see in real life - haha Casualty and Holby city mainly :) ) they have always (the doctors/specialists) looked at MRI scans and found something not looking right. - and i didnt think MRI was invasive?

    pretty sure they have looked at brains and seen a shadow and lungs and seen shadows on the lungs - on those programs , someonegoes upstairs on the wards and the doctor goes "I want an MRI scan to rule out ..." and dish MRI scans out like smarties

    So are they all factually incorrect then?

    Hazard a guess. Go on.



    A guy I knew told us once that he had to go for a brain scan. A while later he announced "it's okay, they couldn't find anything". He didn't get why we all laughed.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 2,881 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Kurtosis


    any documentary's I have ever seen (have to rely on documentary's or soaps or drama programmes because i cannot get to see in real life - haha Casualty and Holby city mainly :) ) they have always (the doctors/specialists) looked at MRI scans and found something not looking right. - and i didnt think MRI was invasive?

    pretty sure they have looked at brains and seen a shadow and lungs and seen shadows on the lungs - on those programs , someonegoes upstairs on the wards and the doctor goes "I want an MRI scan to rule out ..." and dish MRI scans out like smarties

    So are they all factually incorrect then?

    Can't comment on the factual accuracy of the episodes you watched, but I imagine in these cases they are looking to detect something in patients with certain signs/symptoms, or else rule out something specific - they don't wheel someone in through the front door and stick them in an MRI machine before taking a history or doing any examination or tests.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭ Anita Blow


    any documentary's I have ever seen (have to rely on documentary's or soaps or drama programmes because i cannot get to see in real life - haha Casualty and Holby city mainly :) ) they have always (the doctors/specialists) looked at MRI scans and found something not looking right. - and i didnt think MRI was invasive?

    pretty sure they have looked at brains and seen a shadow and lungs and seen shadows on the lungs - on those programs , someonegoes upstairs on the wards and the doctor goes "I want an MRI scan to rule out ..." and dish MRI scans out like smarties

    So are they all factually incorrect then?
    Shows make a lot of medical stuff look easier than it is! :pac:
    But as was said, even in those shows the doctors are looking for something. You absolutely need to know what you're looking for with MRI because as I said, there's different weightings and phases & contrasts. Depending on what you're looking for, MRI can be relatively invasive because it involves injection of a contrast agent. All contrast agents carry risks so radiologists don't like to use them on just anybody.

    MRI Scan may be used for some brain conditions, but not for Lung & rarely for the heart. So they're talking about other scans in those shows. Like if they believed someone to have lung cancer, they may do an X-Ray and then they may do a CT which altogether is >2 years worth of background radiation which you couldn't justify exposing the entire population to


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