Employment law for Beast from the East

ChewyLewy

Hi

My employer said that if anyone can't make it in due to the bad snow this week.....it will be taken out of our annual leave.

On a normal day its a hour train journey.

If you can't make it in....and trains and buses are not running....can they do that ?

Cheers

bottlebrush

just got a text from my boss. not to come in if it's not safe to do so but it will be annual leave if I can't come in.
heard on the Radio today that's there is no obligation on an employer to pay employees who can't get to your due to bad weather.

bottlebrush

just got a text from my boss. not to come in if it's not safe to do so but it will be annual leave if I can't come in.
heard on the Radio today that's there is no obligation on an employer to pay employees who can't get to your due to bad weather.

Snotty

No they cannot make you take a days holiday, but they don't have to pay you either.
If you are happy to just lose the days pay then they should allow that.

amcalester

ChewyLewy wrote: »

Hi

My employer said that if anyone can't make it in due to the bad snow this week.....it will be taken out of our annual leave.

On a normal day its a hour train journey.

If you can't make it in....and trains and buses are not running....can they do that ?

Cheers

Annual leave is taken at the discretion of the employer so either take a days leave or lose a days pay.

There may be a minimum notice period when instructing employees to take annual leave so you could keep your leave but if you can’t or don’t make it into work your employer doesn’t have to pay you.

Snotty

They cannot force you to take it as annual leave either, you can just not be paid for the day.

cycle4fun

bottlebrush wrote: »

heard on the Radio today that's there is no obligation on an employer to pay employees who can't get to your due to bad weather.

Proper order too. In Russia and places like that its minus 20 and they keep working.

Heard on the radio that in Scotland they have renamed the "beast from the east" "its a bit chill today" and they keep working.

ohnonotgmail

cycle4fun wrote: »

Proper order too. In Russia and places like that its minus 20 and they keep working.

Heard on the radio that in Scotland they have renamed the "beast from the east" "its a bit chill today" and they keep working.

apparently it is so bad in newcastle that one bloke put on a jumper.

cycle4fun

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

apparently it is so bad in newcastle that one bloke put on a jumper.

Here a few cm of snow and everything stops. The Poles, Russians, Scandinavians etc all laugh at us. Rightly so.

hullaballoo

cycle4fun wrote: »

Here a few cm of snow and everything stops. The Poles, Russians, Scandinavians etc all laugh at us. Rightly so.

I doubt people from countries who have snow all the time and have been trained and equipped since birth to deal with it laugh at people from countries with a mild climate.

I know they are supposed to have senses of humour that we find odd but even still, I can't see how they would find it funny that people in different countries have different capacities to deal with weather.

Like, I don't think I'd laugh as such if I heard that Norway were dealing with drought and high temperatures. I think I'd probably be of the view that it must be really difficult for them to deal with weather conditions they rarely experience.

Maybe you're right though and the Poles, Russians and Scandinavians enjoy schadenfreude to particular extremes.

Cookie_Monster

hullaballoo wrote: »

I doubt people from countries who have snow all the time and have been trained and equipped since birth to deal with it laugh at people from countries with a mild climate.

and yet it seems to happen every single year without fail in Ireland...
It's only going to get more common with climate change impacts as well

_Brian

Annual leave is covered in the Organisation of Working time act.

It specifically states that an employer must give one month notice if making an employee take a dad annual leave.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/20/section/20/enacted/en/html#sec20

Now, it may not be the worst thing as you are likely to be docked a days pay as the only alternative. So people taking annual leave are opting to take it rather than being forced to take it.

Cookie_Monster

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

It's only going to get more common with climate change impacts as well

Climate has and always will be changing.

I think it's high time it's law that Irish drivers install winter tyres, the difference is amazing having proper tyres, it's much safer too.

We seem to be getting more frequent cooler events and this trend may continue and even get worse over the coming decades. Either way , normal Summer tyres are much less effective below 7 degrees C.

I wonder how many accidents can be prevented if people had tyres that actually provide proper grip ?

Also the excuse is that we're not equipped to deal with it, well I doubt there's a country on earth that make such a drama out of things like the Irish, the Met office these days is entertainment, they're celebrities same as the media, they like to be the centre of attention.

Del2005

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

and yet it seems to happen every single year without fail in Ireland...
It's only going to get more common with climate change impacts as well

It's been 8 years since we had significant snow. The equipment would be rusted away and people would be complaining about having millions of Euro worth of heavy equipment sitting doing nothing for 8 years.

In countries which get heavy snow they spend significant amounts of money on keeping roads open during winter, though they do still shut some, we barely spend money maintaining our roads never mind winter preparation.

Littlehorny

My brother in law works for a property maintenance company and he is out this morning clearing paths. While this is great for residents of the areas he's working in.
Is he supposed to be out driving his company's van when a red weather warning has been issued, insurance wise? And should he have been brought in to work at all?

Del2005

Del2005 wrote: »

It's been 8 years since we had significant snow. The equipment would be rusted away and people would be complaining about having millions of Euro worth of heavy equipment sitting doing nothing for 8 years.

In countries which get heavy snow they spend significant amounts of money on keeping roads open during winter, though they do still shut some, we barely spend money maintaining our roads never mind winter preparation.

Well at least people should drive with proper winter tyres, it's the drivers responsibility to ensure their car is fit to drive on the road and driving in snow or at temps below is irresponsible in colder weather and in particularly ice and snow. The difference winter tyres make is amazing.

In other countries it's illegal to drive on Summer tyres in winter and the same should apply to Ireland where temps frequently get low enough to Justify having winter tyres.

The other alternative is that if someone doesn't feel it necessary to install winter tyres then in reality they should not be on the road in lower temps.

Even at the absolute bare minimum install all seasons but all seasons are a jack of all trades and a master of none.

theteal

Deleted User wrote: »

I think it's high time it's law that Irish drivers install winter tyres, the difference is amazing having proper tyres, it's much safer too.

Non solid plastic Chinese tyres would be a good start

Blowfish

Littlehorny wrote: »

My brother in law works for a property maintenance company and he is out this morning clearing paths. While this is great for residents of the areas he's working in.
Is he supposed to be out driving his company's van when a red weather warning has been issued, insurance wise? And should he have been brought in to work at all?

I'd be curious about this too. I know of at least one employer where they are still requiring staff to go in. It's not even a critical service like Hospital, Defense Forces etc. No one being there will cause some issues for the employer, but that's it.

What are the potential consequences for those employees if they just don't turn up?

Fann Linn

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I think it's high time it's law that Irish drivers install winter tyres, the difference is amazing having proper tyres, it's much safer too.

We seem to be getting more frequent cooler events and this trend may continue and even get worse over the coming decades. Either way , normal Summer tyres are much less effective below 7 degrees C.

I wonder how many accidents can be prevented if people had tyres that actually provide proper grip ?

Also the excuse is that we're not equipped to deal with it, well I doubt there's a country on earth that make such a drama out of things like the Irish, the Met office these days is entertainment, they're celebrities same as the media, they like to be the centre of attention.

Heard Conor Faughnan on a few shows lately and he said that actually there are very few accidents during snow etc as drivers over compensate and drive even slower. He said the real problems arise when the thaw lands and the eejits put the boot down.

Cantona's Collars

Blowfish wrote: »

I'd be curious about this too. I know of at least one employer where they are still requiring staff to go in. It's not even a critical service like Hospital, Defense Forces etc. No one being there will cause some issues for the employer, but that's it.

What are the potential consequences for those employees if they just don't turn up?

If said employer decides in the middle of the alert to send employees home when it's still within their working hours and someone has an accident due to the conditions then the employer may have issues with liability. This was discussed on The Last Word yesterday.

Blowfish

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

If said employer decides in the middle of the alert to send employees home when it's still within their working hours and someone has an accident due to the conditions then the employer may have issues with liability. This was discussed on The Last Word yesterday.

They aren't planning on sending them home, they wan't them to work the entire thing as normal, plus some shifts will be starting in the middle of the storm/alert.

Littlehorny

Blowfish wrote: »

I'd be curious about this too. I know of at least one employer where they are still requiring staff to go in. It's not even a critical service like Hospital, Defense Forces etc. No one being there will cause some issues for the employer, but that's it.

What are the potential consequences for those employees if they just don't turn up?

Talked to a neighbour who works in human resources and he said it's basically up to the employer how sound they want to be towards their staff i.e. making people come in, paying them or making them take holiday days off etc, its up to them really.
Also, he says some insurance companies will cover their premium holders

Cantona's Collars

Blowfish wrote: »

They aren't planning on sending them home, they wan't them to work the entire thing as normal, plus some shifts will be starting in the middle of the storm/alert.

That's insane.

koumi

linky :- http://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/news-media/Workplace_Relations_Notices/Absence_during_extreme_weather_events.html

....Absence during extreme weather events
Extreme and severe weather events can impact on an employee’s ability to report for work and an employer’s ability to operate his/her business and to be able to provide work.
The following information may be of assistance where the contract of employment or the statement of terms of employment does not specifically deal with the issue.
When an employee cannot attend work because of extreme weather events, is the employer obliged to pay the employee?
In general, there is no statutory entitlement for an employee to be paid if they cannot attend work because of extreme weather. Any more beneficial arrangement is a matter for agreement between the employer and the employee.

Employers are encouraged to take a long-term view of the working relationship, recognising that demonstrating concern for the welfare of employees and treating employees fairly translates into a better working environment to the benefit of both the staff and the employer.

Can an employee take annual leave days to cover the unforeseen absence from work?
Employers may allow employees take annual leave for the day or days covered by the event in which case they would be paid.

Can an employee take unpaid leave to cover the absence from work because of an extreme weather event?
This arrangement is a matter for agreement between the employer and the employee.

What happens where a roster needs to be changed at short notice?
Normally, employees are entitled to notice of at least 24 hours of a roster change. However, this does not apply in exceptional circumstances as with extreme weather events....

Fann Linn

Fann Linn wrote: »

Heard Conor Faughnan on a few shows lately and he said that actually there are very few accidents during snow etc as drivers over compensate and drive even slower. He said the real problems arise when the thaw lands and the eejits put the boot down.

Unfortunately I've heard Conor faughnan numerous times saying there's no real need to install winter tyres in Ireland and coming from the director of AA Ireland I find this advice highly irresponsible.

Why do I think this ? because what he should be saying is that you're responsible for your car , and the safety of your passengers and others on the road and you must ensure your car is fit for purpose and that also means having suitable tyres for the conditions you're driving.

Driving on Summer tyres in low temperatures snow and or Ice endangers you, your passengers and other road users lives and it's as simple as that.

If someone crashes in Ice or snow and severely injures or kills another road user which could be prevented by using the proper tyres then I'd be all for changing the law and enforcing this.

Conor Faughnan should not be advising people not to use winter tyres or say there's no real reason in Ireland because I've heard him say this and he's just 100% wrong. What he should be advising is that you drive with the appropriate tyres for the driving conditions meaning winter tyres in cold weather and normal tyres when conditions permit.

There really no reason we can't all have two sets of rims , one with Summer tyres and another set with winter tyres.

AndrewJRenko

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

and yet it seems to happen every single year without fail in Ireland...
It's only going to get more common with climate change impacts as well

We haven't had snow like this since 1982.

Deleted User wrote: »

Climate has and always will be changing.

But not to the extent that it has been changing over the last 50 or even 20 years.

Deleted User wrote: »

I think it's high time it's law that Irish drivers install winter tyres, the difference is amazing having proper tyres, it's much safer too.

We seem to be getting more frequent cooler events and this trend may continue and even get worse over the coming decades. Either way , normal Summer tyres are much less effective below 7 degrees C.

How often does the average Irish driver face temperatures below -7c?

It might be a good idea for professional drivers in essential or emergency services, but it would be a pointless, wasted expense for the vast majority of Irish drivers.

the_pen_turner

we probably spends 4-5 months where it can and regularly gets below 7 degrees c

Haven't had snow like this since 1982 ? ah I think I remember much worse in about 86 and in 2010/11 where I had to dig my car out several times, haven't had to do this yet.

Whether it gets as bad as they say later remains to be seen.

Climate can go any way it wants and who's to say it's right or not and how do we know what it was like even 500 or 1000 years ago ? we don't .

I wouldn't call a few odd ball weather events evidence of climate change either.

AndrewJRenko

the_pen_turner wrote: »

we probably spends 4-5 months where it can and regularly gets below 7 degrees c

You mean in the middle of the night, right? How often is the average Irish driver driving in conditions of -7c?

Deleted User wrote: »

Haven't had snow like this since 1982 ? ah I think I remember much worse in about 86 and in 2010/11 where I had to dig my car out several times, haven't had to do this yet.

Whether it gets as bad as they say later remains to be seen.

It remains to be seen because the blizzard hasn't started yet. But either way, the best way of comparing events like this isn't generally the anecdotal experience of one person. The best way of comparing is to compare the actual amounts measured by the people who do this stuff for a living. They're the ones who say we haven't haven't had snow like this since 1982. BTW, Met Eireann reports don't show any significant snow event in 1986. There was some in 1987.

Deleted User wrote: »

Climate can go any way it wants and who's to say it's right or not and how do we know what it was like even 500 or 1000 years ago ? we don't .

I wouldn't call a few odd ball weather events evidence of climate change either.

So just to clarify, you (and Donald Trump) are denying that significant climate change caused by humans is apparent for the last 50 years or so, despite the overwhelming evidence recognised by the vast majority of experts in this sector?

mrcheez

cycle4fun wrote: »

Here a few cm of snow and everything stops. The Poles, Russians, Scandinavians etc all laugh at us. Rightly so.

The Maltese lose their **** when it starts raining (to what we would regard as normal rainfall amounts). Traffic goes crazy, streets flood, people call in sick (probably)

I said "about 86" yeah probably that but there was significant drifting and we had to get a local man to dig us out with his JCB due to drifting so unless I was dreaming that was a significant snowfall.

So when it actually happens we can say whether it compares to 1982 or not until then it's just a few cm of over hyped madness.

Oh absolutely this Man made climate change is complete BS. They may be classified as being experts in their field but does not make them correct.

These so called experts predicted that by the year 2000 Children are not going to know what snow is and the Polar Sea ice would be gone years ago......

Remember trump backed out of the Paris climate agreement because it was a scam, it was nothing to do with reducing emissions , all it meant was redistributing emissions.

mrcheez

mrcheez wrote: »

The Maltese lose their **** when it starts raining (to what we would regard as normal rainfall amounts). Traffic goes crazy, streets flood, people call in sick (probably)

Where my Brother was staying in Saudi in a residential area there were no shores or ways of taking water away, when it rained heavily they were putting sand bags at their doors for fear of flooding !

Stheno

Deleted User wrote: »

Where my Brother was staying in Saudi in a residential area there were no shores or ways of taking water away, when it rained heavily they were putting sand bags at their doors for fear of flooding !

Maltese do the same, they once had a very heavy amount of rainfall and an undertakers got flooded resulting in coffins floating down the street

AndrewJRenko

Deleted User wrote: »

So when it actually happens we can say whether it compares to 1982 or not until then it's just a few cm of over hyped madness.

Interesting how you've come to a judgement that it is 'over hyped madness' before it has actually happened. That says a lot.

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh absolutely this Man made climate change is complete BS. They may be classified as being experts in their field but does not make them correct.

These so called experts predicted that by the year 2000 Children are not going to know what snow is and the Polar Sea ice would be gone years ago......

Remember trump backed out of the Paris climate agreement because it was a scam, it was nothing to do with reducing emissions , all it meant was redistributing emissions.

Thanks - just wanted to clarify my suspicions that you're with Donald on this one. I'm not going to engage further on this, as life's too short to engage with someone who is convinced they know better than the vast majority of experts on this one. Do you take personal contrarian views on other scientific findings, like brain surgery? I'm reminded of the old quote;

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/445589-never-argue-with-an-idiot-they-will-only-bring-you

the_pen_turner

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

You mean in the middle of the night, right? How often is the average Irish driver driving in conditions of -7c?


It remains to be seen because the blizzard hasn't started yet. But either way, the best way of comparing events like this isn't generally the anecdotal experience of one person. The best way of comparing is to compare the actual amounts measured by the people who do this stuff for a living. They're the ones who say we haven't haven't had snow like this since 1982. BTW, Met Eireann reports don't show any significant snow event in 1986. There was some in 1987.


So just to clarify, you (and Donald Trump) are denying that significant climate change caused by humans is apparent for the last 50 years or so, despite the overwhelming evidence recognised by the vast majority of experts in this sector?

its not minus 7 its plus 7 degrees

AndrewJRenko

the_pen_turner wrote: »

its not minus 7 its plus 7 degrees

Thanks, my mistake.

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Interesting how you've come to a judgement that it is 'over hyped madness' before it has actually happened. That says a lot.

Christ, you can't even read what you quote ?

Here's what I Wrote.

"So when it actually happens we can say whether it compares to 1982 or not until then it's just a few cm of over hyped madness."

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Thanks - just wanted to clarify my suspicions that you're with Donald on this one. I'm not going to engage further on this, as life's too short to engage with someone who is convinced they know better than the vast majority of experts on this one. Do you take personal contrarian views on other scientific findings, like brain surgery? I'm reminded of the old quote;

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/445589-never-argue-with-an-idiot-they-will-only-bring-you

Typical, don't comment or engage with someone who has a different opinion, typical of those who choose to go along with junk science, i.e, the Global warmists or now known as man made climate change believers.

The facts are there, we were told the ICE woul dbe gone years ago and that our Children would not know what snow is by the year 2000 this was printed in the U.K Times if I remember correctly so called climate scientists, so they're not always correct are they ?

But I take it if we were in an ice age you'd still say, Co2 caused it !

Breaston Plants

Anyone able to clarify the situation where employees are sent home early today and are off tomorrow due to the weather alert?
Thanks

AndrewJRenko

Deleted User wrote: »

Christ, you can't even read what you quote ?

Here's what I Wrote.

"So when it actually happens we can say whether it compares to 1982 or not until then it's just a few cm of over hyped madness."

It's a bit like telling your missus "Jaysus, that was a brilliant ride" as you're taking off your trousers, or complimenting the chef on the great dinner as you choose from the bread basket - just slightly premature.

Deleted User wrote: »

Typical, don't comment or engage with someone who has a different opinion, typical of those who choose to go along with junk science, i.e, the Global warmists or now known as man made climate change believers.

The facts are there, we were told the ICE woul dbe gone years ago and that our Children would not know what snow is by the year 2000 this was printed in the U.K Times if I remember correctly so called climate scientists, so they're not always correct are they ?

But I take it if we were in an ice age you'd still say, Co2 caused it !

Keep digging my friend - 'junk science' bwaaahaahaa, that's lovely.

Breaston Plants wrote: »

Anyone able to clarify the situation where employees are sent home early today and are off tomorrow due to the weather alert?
Thanks

What's your question? Are you asking if employees will be paid for the duration?

Breaston Plants

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It's a bit like telling your missus "Jaysus, that was a brilliant ride" as you're taking off your trousers, or complimenting the chef on the great dinner as you choose from the bread basket - just slightly premature.


Keep digging my friend - 'junk science' bwaaahaahaa, that's lovely.



What's your question? Are you asking if employees will be paid for the duration?

Yes.

Robbo

Moderation: Less of the weather talk please, there are endless more suitable locations for that on Boards.