Will a 92 Carina ever be an appreciating classic?

Gravelly

Duke O Smiley wrote: »

https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/toyota-carina/18108816



No NCT since 2012, €2500

Now there’s an optimist if I’ve ever seen one.

Content taken from the dreamer thread here:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106253820&postcount=8947

Toyotafanboi

Ah lads, bargain :pac:

Top Dog

Would make a great classic ... except its not yet old enough :rolleyes:

JohnBoy26

Top Dog wrote: »

Would make a great classic ... except its not yet old enough :rolleyes:

It's not far off being a classic, only another 4 years. €2500 is too much for it though.

Top Dog

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

It's not far off being a classic, only another 4 years. €2500 is too much for it though.

Theres not many people would buy a pretty boggo 1.6 Carina and sit on it for 4 years, regardless of price.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

It's not far off being a classic, only another 4 years. €2500 is too much for it though.

It may reach classic age, but it aint no classic. Every tom dick and harry with a old car is claiming classic at the moment. They are fun to see from a nostalgia of the good old bad old days, but really its not an appreciating classic worth collecting now is it.

colm_mcm

It has electric windows to be fair. GLi model by the looks of it. Very collectible.

JohnBoy26

Top Dog wrote: »

Theres not many people would buy a pretty boggo 1.6 Carina and sit on it for 4 years, regardless of price.

It's not 'boggo' spec. It's actually quite nice as far as a car from 1992 goes. Also there is plenty of people in this country that would buy one and sit on it for 4 years(not that you'd have to). They have a big following here and those carina's are very well regarded.

JohnBoy26

Dorian Pitiful Freshwater wrote: »

It may reach classic age, but it aint no classic. Every tom dick and harry with a old car is claiming classic at the moment. They are fun to see from a nostalgia of the good old bad old days, but really its not an appreciating classic worth collecting now is it.

That's just plain ignorance to be fair. Those cars are very well regarded and do have a following. They will go up in value in years to come, especially very good examples.

They might not be your cup of tea but that doesn't mean they aren't going to become a classic.

Just because they were common doesn't mean they won't become a classic either. Sure if an escort and a cortina can become a classic I can't see why the carina can't

elperello

Being a 92 (the first year of the model) she will make it to classic tax ahead of the rest.

Interesting to note that this well loved model only ran from 92-97 and the current Avensis is 9 years old this year.

Dia1988

elperello wrote: »

Being a 92 (the first year of the model) she will make it to classic tax ahead of the rest.

Interesting to note that this well loved model only ran from 92-97 and the current Avensis is 9 years old this year.

Not sure what your point is here

Avensis Mk1 ran from ‘97 to ‘02!

elperello

Dia1988 wrote: »

Not sure what your point is here

Avensis Mk1 ran from ‘97 to ‘02!

Not really a big deal just found it interesting that they have let the current unloved model soldier on so long.
Some say it will be the last of the line anyway.

Top Dog

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

It's not 'boggo' spec. It's actually quite nice as far as a car from 1992 goes. Also there is plenty of people in this country that would buy one and sit on it for 4 years(not that you'd have to). They have a big following here and those carina's are very well regarded.

I was very careful to say pretty boggo. If it were the GTI model, or even a 2 litre version then I could somewhat understand. If you're going to wait for a classic tax/insurance they why do it on the smallest engine that was available at the time?

I'm sure they are well regarded. They were light, nippy and a bit of fun. I just don't get the attraction (obviously thats a personal thing - each to their own). At least with the classic Fords you mention there's the novelty of rarity and RWD. The Carina is just another 1.6 Japanese family saloon, of which there were thousands.

colm_mcm

Dia1988 wrote: »

Not sure what your point is here

Avensis Mk1 ran from ‘97 to ‘02!

Till 03

Carina E was still sold in 1998, leftovers of course. Know someone that bought an estate one.

Duke O Smiley

I don't think being RWD was the sole deciding factor in a Cortina's classic status though. They certainly weren't rare in the day, and they are very much considered classic today. And as well, you're hardly going to be taking to roundabouts sideways in a 1.6L Cortina.

That car will be most certainly gain classic status.

Duke O Smiley

colm_mcm wrote: »

Till 03

Carina E was still sold in 1998, leftovers of course. Know someone that bought an estate one.

There was a very shoddy 98 Carina e at Merlin auctions late last year! I have a pic somewhere

Dia1988

elperello wrote: »

Not really a big deal just found it interesting that they have let the current unloved model soldier on so long.
Some say it will be the last of the line anyway.

The Avensis and The Hyundai i40 must be the 2 most out dated saloons on sale currently. Both as bland and dull as ditchwater. The Fiat Punto being the most out dated car for sale currently.

JohnBoy26

Top Dog wrote: »

I was very careful to say pretty boggo. If it were the GTI model, or even a 2 litre version then I could somewhat understand. If you're going to wait for a classic tax/insurance they why do it on the smallest engine that was available at the time?

I'm sure they are well regarded. They were light, nippy and a bit of fun. I just don't get the attraction (obviously thats a personal thing - each to their own). At least with the classic Fords you mention there's the novelty of rarity and RWD. The Carina is just another 1.6 Japanese family saloon, of which there were thousands.

The cortina didn't become a classic for it's rwd. It's rwd isn't even a stand out feature. The mk4 and mk5 were at best mediocre cars but became classics because they were popular back in the day when there was f€ck all else out there.

The carina will also become a classic not just because they were popular but also because they gained an excellent reputation and are highly regarded for their quality.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

That's just plain ignorance to be fair.

But, no not trying to rub anyone's rubbarb here but I dont see it. Each to their own, but I cannot see the children of the 90's hoovering them up in 2030 and bringing them to car shows.

fancy pigeon

Dorian Pitiful Freshwater wrote: »

But, no not trying to rub anyone's rubbarb here but I dont see it. Each to their own, but I cannot see the children of the 90's hoovering them up in 2030 and bringing them to car shows.

Amen to this

The sooner people get their heads out of their asses and realize people have different tastes the better.

But, some people are so ignorant they never will

Gravelly

I got a taste of the Carina Love here recently when I dared to suggest the one I used to own wasn't exactly a breathtaking performer, but wow, this thread is upping it a bit.

It's a feckin Carina lads, I know ye might have fond memories of daddy driving ye to school in one, but take it from someone who actually drove the bleedin country in one, they are about as boring as a car can get.

Jaysus.

Duke O Smiley

Dorian Pitiful Freshwater wrote: »

But, no not trying to rub anyone's rubbarb here but I dont see it. Each to their own, but I cannot see the children of the 90's hoovering them up in 2030 and bringing them to car shows.

Go to any car show in the country that isn’t Terenure/RDS and this is already happening though

pablo128

Gravelly wrote: »

I got a taste of the Carina Love here recently when I dared to suggest the one I used to own wasn't exactly a breathtaking performer, but wow, this thread is upping it a bit.

It's a feckin Carina lads, I know ye might have fond memories of daddy driving ye to school in one, but take it from someone who actually drove the bleedin country in one, they are about as boring as a car can get.

Jaysus.

So we're the Escort and Cortinas in their day. We used to buy them for £20 and rally them in the fields. They hadn't got the power to do rings in the dry, the only bit of crack to be had was on wet grass.

Arthur Daley

Gravelly wrote: »

but take it from someone who actually drove the bleedin country in one, they are about as boring as a car can get.

Yeah, I've heard Carina Es described as many many things, but fun was not one of them back in the day.

Gravelly

pablo128 wrote: »

So we're the Escort and Cortinas in their day. We used to buy them for £20 and rally them in the fields. They hadn't got the power to do rings in the dry, the only bit of crack to be had was on wet grass.

Myself and my brother bought a 2 door Mk2 escort many moons ago and "fielded" it till it fell apart. Think we paid a tenner for it.

The thing is though, Escorts and Cortinas were (and are) simple mechanically, have a certain charm (based on their antique mechanics, Ford's sporting heritage, Fords connection to Ireland etc.), and existed in a time in Ireland where owning a car wasn't within the realm of everyone. A Carina, is, well, charmless. It's a Japanese, mass-produced, electronic, utilitarian commuter vehicle. You'll never tinker under the bonnet to get the timing just right, or sneak in a hotter cam, or try to make it look like one of the cool ones that won a rally. Escorts and Cortinas has a certain cachet that a Carina will never have.

Arthur Daley

Must be lucky to get one that's not been taxi'd to the moon and back.

Ubbquittious

Bog standard daysul i40s and dacia dustbins will one day become classics as well

Toyotafanboi

Gravelly wrote: »

It's a feckin Carina lads, I know ye might have fond memories of daddy driving ye to school in one, but take it from someone who actually drove the bleedin country in one, they are about as boring as a car can get.

I think you've actually nailed it with that post.

Most people who are drawn to a "classic" is because it is a car they have fond memories of from their youth, it's rarely the people who actually drove them at the time.

Gravelly

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

I think you've actually nailed it with that post.

Most people who are drawn to a "classic" is because it is a car they have fond memories of from their youth, it's rarely the people who actually drove them at the time.

That is very, very true. I've said on here before that if you go to any classic car show or vintage run, nearly every car owner will be driving a car that was popular when he or she was too young to drive.

I still don't get the Carina Love though. If you have to love a boring 90's car, go for something a little off-kilter, like a Rover 75, Landrover Discovery, or even a bleedin Ford Ka.

Wibbs

Dorian Pitiful Freshwater wrote: »

But, no not trying to rub anyone's rubbarb here but I dont see it. Each to their own, but I cannot see the children of the 90's hoovering them up in 2030 and bringing them to car shows.

The whole "classic" status thing can get complicated and it has many tiers within it. At the top you have the1930's coachbuilt one offs with Lalique crystal mascots and hand polished screws throughout, trailered to Pebble Beach, owned by rich old guys in Panama hats and blue blazers. Then you have the 50's and 60's Lamborraris and the like, owned by fund managers and rock stars. Then you have the "hot" examples of more everyday cars, the loss leaders that were mostly rare and out of reach for those whose parents bought into the dream and had the L model. Then you have complete oddball and or extremely rare cars that are often "classics" simply because they're oddball and rare. So far so good.

However there is yet another category and that is of the very mundane cars like this one. Mundane cars that because they were so common nobody really thought about them beyond "wasn't so bad a car" and "sure they're everywhere" until one day without anyone noticing they were all gone. But because they were so common many people have memories of them, nostalgia can kick in and they become "classics" in their own way. I've been to a few car shows in the UK down the years and among all the fancier metal there is nearly always a fair showing of such mundane average cars and their owners often put as much energy and care into their preservation and restoration as owners of LeMan's D Types.

To each their own I suppose. I mean no doubt a few Panama hatted Pebble beach winners would consider something like a Lancia Delta Integrale as quaint but mundane and beneath them.

jca

People confuse nostalgia with classic in Ireland. The amount of filler restored dross at field days/ "classic" car shows is shocking, but sure each to their own I suppose. The capable but extremely boring Carina E will never reach nostalgia or "classic" status for me anyway.

JoeA3

No.

Those cars had a following in Ireland in the 1990's but I remember they were generally hated by the critics, it was generally considered inferior to the car it replaced. Old shed does not equate to "classic".

Ubbquittious

Gravelly wrote: »

That is very, very true. I've said on here before that if you go to any classic car show or vintage run, nearly every car owner will be driving a car that was popular when he or she was too young to drive.

I still don't get the Carina Love though. If you have to love a boring 90's car, go for something a little off-kilter, like a Rover 75, Landrover Discovery, or even a bleedin Ford Ka.

Anything that's over a certain age is off kilter when it gets to the point where people start looking around and say jaysis what kind of a yoke is that when one drives past.

Even the trabant has a following now and they weren't just bog standard in their day but actively sh1te. Loads of them were just abandoned when the wall came down but now they're rare and unusual compared to the ordinary car you see on the roads today

Gravelly

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Anything that's over a certain age is off kilter when it gets to the point where people start looking around and say jaysis what kind of a yoke is that when one drives past.

Even the trabant has a following now and they weren't just bog standard in their day but actively sh1te. Loads of them were just abandoned when the wall came down but now they're rare and unusual compared to the ordinary car you see on the roads today

Yeah but Trabants are classics because they were actively shïte. The Carina is ridiculously reliable, completely lacking in any odd or unusual features or performance, and, thus, boring.

Supergurrier

Not a hope it's a classic. A carina II isn't even a classic. What next a mid 99's corolla or mk1 Yaris will be a classic ? Please

Arthur Daley

To be fair anything 25 years old plus could be seen as a 'practical classic'. You will start seeing 1993/94 cars in Practical classic magazine, and there is a following for this, what harm does it do. But that is very far from being a desirable or appreciating classic.

Gravelly

It's clear there's two schools of thought here:

1. Every car is a classic once it reaches a certain (undefined) age

2. Only cars with an underlying quality (undefined) are classics

I would be in the second school of thought. To me, pretty much anything pre-1960 is, without doubt, a classic, because all cars built then have relatively antique mechanics, little or no electronics, can usually be worked on extensively by a car enthusiast, and are pretty much all rare now to some extent. The same goes for most stuff pre-1980's. In fact, I think most cars built before the widespread adoption of fuel injection, are, or will become, classics. When you get into the 90's, I feel considerably less of these cars will become classics - yeah, they will be old cars, but to me, there is a difference between old and classic. A 90's or later car would need to have some special characteristic in my eyes to be considered a classic - thus, I can see, say a VW Golf VR6 becoming a classic, but a bog standard, mass-produced, 90's Golf? No. I'm not sure how I would define something that isn't, or won't be a classic but here is a simple excercise, if it fits three or more of the following, in my mind, it is not a classic:

Mass produced in huge numbers
Has no unusual or non-standard feature that stands apart from any other car of the era
Can keep up with modern traffic
Cannot be worked extensively (including engine) on by a home/DIY mechanic
Would not stand out in a present-day supermarket car park
Does not cause kids to stop in the street and point at it

Obviously this is just my personal opinion, and should be taken with a pinch of salt, but I do think it's worth having a think about what a classic is, or else everything is a classic, which means nothing is.

Supergurrier

This is however becoming skewed as the quality of cars has improved and they have longer lives.

A modern classic to me would be

Mk1/2 Mazda mx5
Nissan 350z will be also a future classic purely because of the way it drives
Honda S2000
MK1/2 Focus RS (True for any other limited production run hot hatches)

The market sets what's desirable tbh, only time can tell that story.

Arthur Daley

Yeah this old chestnut, never the twain shall met. I suppose for a Carina e it has a stand out value as one of the most reliable cars ever made.

Wibbs

Gravelly wrote: »

I'm not sure how I would define something that isn't, or won't be a classic but here is a simple excercise, if it fits three or more of the following, in my mind, it is not a classic:

Mass produced in huge numbers
Has no unusual or non-standard feature that stands apart from any other car of the era
Can keep up with modern traffic
Cannot be worked extensively (including engine) on by a home/DIY mechanic
Would not stand out in a present-day supermarket car park
Does not cause kids to stop in the street and point at it

I'd pretty much agree, save for the can be worked on by a home mechanic. Vanishingly few home tinkerers could work on say a 60's Lamborghini's 400 GT V12 and that's most certainly a classic. We could go back and forth on that, but IMHO not the the part underlined. That part I wouldn't agree with at all. I mean an obvious example like the Ferrari F40 is undoubtedly a classic and would leave the vast majority of modern traffic in its wake. Even more "mundane" classics like the Ford Escort Cosworth would do the same.

The definition of classic has change quite a bit I suppose. Not so long ago old cars were just that, old cars and classics were largely defined as pre war cars with running boards. More recently Japanese cars with precious few exceptions(Toyota 2000GT maybe) were considered not likely to be ever classics in the true sense of the word, but more and more models are being added to the list of valued classics. Mostly 90's examples too.

H3llR4iser

jca wrote: »

People confuse nostalgia with classic in Ireland. The amount of filler restored dross at field days/ "classic" car shows is shocking, but sure each to their own I suppose. The capable but extremely boring Carina E will never reach nostalgia or "classic" status for me anyway.

Not just in Ireland - plenty of banged up, ducktape-repaired 1980s Panda and Uno going around Italy classified as "classics", where the owner just uses it as a daily vehicle...as he/she did for the last 20 years or so.

It's a bit of a slippery slope which can cause unintended consequences - for example, the Italian Ministry of Transport has been tinkering for years with the idea of increasing the "Classic" age (it's only 20 years down there) to avoid the phenomenon of having plenty of bangers in horrible states of disrepair going around as "classics"; This would most likely mean that actual classic material aged between 21 and 30 would hit the scrappers as they'd suddenly become too expensive to maintain - tax (based on engine power in Italy) and insurance would instantly go up by a factor of 10 or more. For example, the administrative costs of owning something like a 25 years old Lancia Thema 8.32 would go from around 200 Euro/year to 3000+ (and more if you're unlucky enough to live in the south).

Up until now the ACI (equivalent of the AA) has managed to fend off the proposal, but...

Gravelly

Wibbs wrote: »

I'd pretty much agree, save for the can be worked on by a home mechanic. Vanishingly few home tinkerers could work on say a 60's Lamborghini's 400 GT V12 and that's most certainly a classic. We could go back and forth on that, but IMHO not the the part underlined. That part I wouldn't agree with at all. I mean an obvious example like the Ferrari F40 is undoubtedly a classic and would leave the vast majority of modern traffic in its wake. Even more "mundane" classics like the Ford Escort Cosworth would do the same.

The definition of classic has change quite a bit I suppose. Not so long ago old cars were just that, old cars and classics were largely defined as pre war cars with running boards. More recently Japanese cars with precious few exceptions(Toyota 2000GT maybe) were considered not likely to be ever classics in the true sense of the word, but more and more models are being added to the list of valued classics. Mostly 90's examples too.

You're right in all the above, but you may have missed where I said a car that fell in to 3 or more categories - which obviously allows for classics that can't be worked on by a home mechanic, or that can keep up with modern traffic.

dr.fuzzenstein

Classic car status is also a bit in the eye of the beholder.
In the 90's and early 2000's I owned 2 Mercedes W123s and 2 VW T3. Not at the same time, mind you
You would not be let in to any classic car show with them (Jaysis, what you want with THAT heap of crap?!) and you could not get classic (or any) insurance for them. Mechanics refused to work on them (Jaysis, what you want with THAT heap of crap?!) and the Nigerian Embassy had my legally parked T3 towed because they didn't like the look of it. My '88 Mitsibishi Colt was laughed at and ridiculed, now you can't get one for love nor money.
Bought and sold for hundreds with people saying "Those pieces of crap will NEVER be classics!"
Now if you want to buy a T3 or W123 you better bring along a few thousand. Even grubby, rusty T3's cost 2-3 thousand here in Germany.
So I guess any car will become a classic, even something hateful like a MKI Micra. It's always a classic to someone even if 99% of people hate it.
As for keeping up with modern traffic? Nonsense, the VW and Mercs I owned were as slow as a wet week. And if you own a 2CV or Beetle or a lot of other 70's or earlier classics, they wouldn't have a hope.
And I do have a soft spot for slow and crappy old cars.

edit:
I actually currently also own a MKI Twingo. Watch those become cult classics. Of course those were not available in Ireland. Can't for the life of me understand why. They're great fun. And slow and crappy.

H3llR4iser

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

edit:
I actually currently also own a MKI Twingo. Watch those become cult classics. Of course those were not available in Ireland. Can't for the life of me understand why. They're great fun. And slow and crappy.

One of my schoolmate's mom had one back in the 90s, quite interesting little cars with a TARDIS effect (you don't expect them to be that big inside). The thing I remember the most, as a 15 years old however, was how impossibly (for the time) thin were the doors and steel frame of the car!

Lord Nikon

It's no Nissan Bluebird.

Ubbquittious

You'd struggle quite hard to find a 1960s or 1970s car that's in good condition and driveable that won't sell for a few grand or isn't a classic by some fella's definition.

It might take another 10 or 20 years for the Carina but eventually you'll see one with at a vintage rally complete with rickety wooden trailer filled with square bales, it's owner polishing it and a few lads admiring the GAA stickers on the back window.

dr.fuzzenstein

Ubbquittious wrote: »

You'd struggle quite hard to find a 1960s or 1970s car that's in good condition and driveable that won't sell for a few grand or isn't a classic by some fella's definition.

It might take another 10 or 20 years for the Carina but eventually you'll see one with at a vintage rally complete with rickety wooden trailer filled with square bales, it's owner polishing it and a few lads admiring the GAA stickers on the back window.

Completely original including plastic rosary beads, Padre Pio sticker, bottle of holy water and solemn novena sticker. Without which the car would cease to function.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Maybe the definition of a classic should be a car that you can find 10 fellows that want it and are willing to sink 3 times the purchase price into it to return to to its factory glory?

I am finding it very hard to put my finger on what makes a classic, and its a interesting discussion. Its all well and good for people to say that car X is a classic and they would love to see one. But I think its another when fellows are willing to spend their dosh on one.

I find it hard to believe a car that was not special in any way when new, either by its awesomeness, design or how terrible it was will become a classic.

'Member berries only get you so far.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QM2zcv5AfaM

Ubbquittious

Dorian Pitiful Freshwater wrote: »

I find it hard to believe a car that was not special in any way when new, either by its awesomeness, design or how terrible it was will become a classic.

Could be the car that defined the era as well. Those early 90's Toyotas are like the Ford Anglias, Austin A40s, Morris Minors and Model T's before them.

Eventually you'll see the mid-late 90's Primeras and Almeras becoming classics, the Daysul A4s, the CLS350 CDIs and Navaras that haven't snapped in half from the tiger followed by the Tucson CRDi and Dacia Dusters all on their way to becoming classics.

Gravelly

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Could be the car that defined the era as well. Those early 90's Toyotas are like the Ford Anglias, Austin A40s, Morris Minors and Model T's before them.

Eventually you'll see the mid-late 90's Primeras and Almeras becoming classics, the Daysul A4s, the CLS350 CDIs and Navaras that haven't snapped in half from the tiger followed by the Tucson CRDi and Dacia Dusters all on their way to becoming classics.

Ford Anglias, Austin A40s and Morris Minors were the cars that turned the British into a motoring nation, and turned the car from the preserve of the rich, into something for anyone to aspire to. The Model T did the same for America a generation earlier. The Carina has no importance whatsoever in the history of the motor car.

The other cars you listed will never be classics (with the exception of the CLS350), unless your only definition of a classic is "any car older than x number of years" and if that is the case, then the term "classic" loses all meaning.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Could be the car that defined the era as well. Those early 90's Toyotas are like the Ford Anglias, Austin A40s, Morris Minors and Model T's before them.

Maybe but I think you need to look beyond what an average family owned for that. Unless you limit entry the whole thing becomes meaningless.

The Mazda mx-5 The Honda NSX, e36 M3, e39 m5, the Rav4 (maybe??), Merc 550SEC, SAAB 900 turbo, the Powell Motors Homer, Maybe the Volvo 850. Skyline R33, Supra....

A Carina E is unworthy to touch the helm of their garments.