'Training to train'

eyrie

Prompted by Testosterscone's reply (https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106146054&postcount=5) to this thread about a sub-3 first marathon attempt, I'm wondering what the advice would be for anyone with far less lofty goals, but with a bit of time to think about preparing for a first marathon. Say from now to DCM?

I know the boards plan tends to start around the end of June or thereabouts. It would be nice to get into as good a place as possible to be able to take on the training then and give it a good go. Would the same approach of a few months of 10K training be recommended? Or is that only if you're hoping to be particularly speedy?

Would be very interested to hear any general thoughts/tips from the experience on here!

BeepBeep67

36 weeks = 3 nice blocks.

12 weeks of ramping up your mileage, running as frequently as you can. Focus on extending your long run over this period to 2hrs+, a splattering of strides, some hill work (short sprints and hilly longer runs) and some comfortable tempo work (3 x 10mins, easy out steady back runs). This will give you a solid foundation.

8 weeks of 5-10k training with a goal race at the end (search for the 10k McMillian thread).

Then get into a 16 marathon plan.

Annie get your Run

^^^What BeepBeep said^^^the benefit of knowing now you want to run DCM is that it gives you oodles of time to slowly build on your current fitness so when you start the plan you're already at an advantage. Consistency is key, and staying injury free so don't over do anything and start now with the stretching/strength routines and regular massages to keep the body in top shape.

eyrie

Thanks both!

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

36 weeks = 3 nice blocks.

12 weeks of ramping up your mileage, running as frequently as you can. Focus on extending your long run over this period to 2hrs+, a splattering of strides, some hill work (short sprints and hilly longer runs) and some comfortable tempo work (3 x 10mins, easy out steady back runs). This will give you a solid foundation.

8 weeks of 5-10k training with a goal race at the end (search for the 10k McMillian thread).

Then get into a 16 marathon plan.

Very helpful, thanks! I have a follow up question if you don't mind My mileage is around 30-35 mpw currently, and I would normally go out 5-6 days. Would you still recommend 12 weeks of building?

Annie get your Run wrote: »

^^^What BeepBeep said^^^the benefit of knowing now you want to run DCM is that it gives you oodles of time to slowly build on your current fitness so when you start the plan you're already at an advantage. Consistency is key, and staying injury free so don't over do anything and start now with the stretching/strength routines and regular massages to keep the body in top shape.

Ugh I'm really going to have to start actually doing the stretching and strength stuff amn't i? The massages, however, I can get on board with!

Neady83

Great question eyrie as I'm sure there are a lot of people who have signed up to DCM2018 and are wondering how to prepare themselves for the plan. You've been given great advice

eyrie wrote: »

Ugh I'm really going to have to start actually doing the stretching and strength stuff amn't i? The massages, however, I can get on board with!

If you have to, substitute some run time for S&C, it will pay you back two fold in the long run. One of the things that they don't tell you when you sign up for DCM or the training plans is that getting to the start line injury free is as important as the training that you do.

Eh I wouldn't be getting too excited about the massages, a good massage will usually bring tears to your eyes. If it doesn't, you either have no knots or you need a new physio

eyrie

Neady83 wrote: »

Eh I wouldn't be getting too excited about the massages, a good massage will usually bring tears to your eyes. If it doesn't, you either have no knots or you need a new physio

Yikes, I have bucketloads of knots! Suddenly sounds a lot less appealing :eek:

Neady83 wrote: »

If you have to, substitute some run time for S&C, it will pay you back two fold in the long run. One of the things that they don't tell you when you sign up for DCM or the training plans is that getting to the start line injury free is as important as the training that you do.

Yep, I know this must be true. I used to do lots of S&C stuff actually, but I've gotten out of the habit lately and I need to get back into it.

Thanks!

Kellygirl

eyrie wrote: »

Thanks both!



Very helpful, thanks! I have a follow up question if you don't mind My mileage is around 30-35 mpw currently, and I would normally go out 5-6 days. Would you still recommend 12 weeks of building?



Ugh I'm really going to have to start actually doing the stretching and strength stuff amn't i? The massages, however, I can get on board with!

That’s fairly substantial mileage weekly anyway. Not knowing how it’s divided up I’d make sure you are getting one long run in weekly and some speed sessions and then keeping the rest really really easy. You have a great base already.

Safiri

eyrie wrote: »

Thanks both!



Very helpful, thanks! I have a follow up question if you don't mind My mileage is around 30-35 mpw currently, and I would normally go out 5-6 days. Would you still recommend 12 weeks of building?

Depends on how well you want to do...Starting a plan with higher mileage means you will be able to train better and run faster. You want to settle for where you are or be better prepared?

For 5/10k training before marathon with 36 weeks, I would do

10 weeks build up to 50
6 weeks 5/10k specific 35-40
12 weeks build up to 60-65
7-8 weeks marathon specific 50-55
2-3 weeks taper
Race

Not crazy at all if you wanted to.

Build up would include easy fartleks with perceived effort of 5-6 out of 10. Moderate steady state runs between easy and marathon pace. Out and back routes coming back faster than than you go out. Strides, hill sprints, flying 100's/200's with float recovery.

Marathon Specific would be mid week interval workout 5-10 seconds faster than marathon pace, alternating long runs between steady and easy(1 mile steady; 1 mile 1 minute slower; 1 mile steady etc). Fast finish long runs, fartleks etc. Cut back mileage when transitioning from Build up to specific to account for increase in intensity.

5/10k specific would be repeats working at faster than race pace to cruise intervals at tempo pace. If doing 2 workouts per week; alternate 1 workout at mile/3k pace one week with tempo intervals next week. Second workout more specific at race pace. Cut back mileage transitioning from Build up to specific phase to account for increase in intensity.

Build up phase should always have the highest mileage every year. It is to prepare your body for specific training both aerobically and conditioning. It is the lowest intensity phase which means it should be easier to run more miles. Mileage should be cut back during specific training as the intensity is higher, most get this backwards and increase both mileage and intensity at once.

Annie get your Run

eyrie wrote: »

Ugh I'm really going to have to start actually doing the stretching and strength stuff amn't i? The massages, however, I can get on board with!

Not only that, I'm going have to practice what I preach :eek::D:rolleyes:

Neady83 wrote: »

If you have to, substitute some run time for S&C, it will pay you back two fold in the long run.

Eh I wouldn't be getting too excited about the massages, a good massage will usually bring tears to your eyes. If it doesn't, you either have no knots or you need a new physio

So true! Yep i didn't mean a 2 hour aromatherapy back tickler - if you're a runner then those days are gone and massage now means pain . Of course the more you keep on top of them the less painful they usually are....ish!

Testosterscone

eyrie wrote: »

Prompted by Testosterscone's reply (https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106146054&postcount=5) to this thread about a sub-3 first marathon attempt, I'm wondering what the advice would be for anyone with far less lofty goals, but with a bit of time to think about preparing for a first marathon. Say from now to DCM?

I know the boards plan tends to start around the end of June or thereabouts. It would be nice to get into as good a place as possible to be able to take on the training then and give it a good go. Would the same approach of a few months of 10K training be recommended? Or is that only if you're hoping to be particularly speedy?

Would be very interested to hear any general thoughts/tips from the experience on here!

Generally the same rules apply.

I remember seeing an old article for Novice Marathon runners from about 30 years back recently, similar to the advice type columns you get in Runners World or Irish Runner. One of the points would be that you should keep building slowly until you are consistently running 60 miles per week 8 weeks prior to Goal Marathon. This may seem alien in today's approach for many but it is solid advice.

Most of us don't have the strength to that sort of work so you need to scale it back to suit your own needs so for example a typical session for a marathon runner is

20-40 min tempo

If this is too hard for your current level scale it back

3-4* 8-10 min tempo with 3 min recovery

Still working too hard in the session or picking up niggles and not recovering? Scale it back again

3-4 x (4,3,2,1 min Tempo with 60 second recovery) 3 min

breaking it down to a level that fits where you are vs where you want to be gives you a starting point and from here you can gradually build the session up to be able. This is what I mean by training to train.

Rather that say do x or y ask yourself the following questions and it will give you an idea of whether you need to work on in early stages and from there break things right down to the level you are at rather than hoping by running particular sessions you will get the the place you wanna be fitness wise.

Do you fade on easy runs over an hour?
Do you pick up niggles when you try increase mileage?
Do you struggle with 5k race paces in training?
What type of races do you find hardest/easiest?
Do you have a high knee lift and good kick back?
Do you struggle physically or mentally in races

These can offer good insight into where you need to spend a bit of time working and from there break it down to the level you can handle. For many form and endurance are issues so best to spend time addressing them early on while the mileage naturally increases month after month to the point that training is a seamless transition into marathon specific work.

ariana`

Great post. I'll be following with interest.

Neady83 wrote: »

If you have to, substitute some run time for S&C, it will pay you back two fold in the long run. One of the things that they don't tell you when you sign up for DCM or the training plans is that getting to the start line injury free is as important as the training that you do.

I couldn't agree more with this. I think you followed last year's novice thread Eyrie? More than one of us ended up injured. And unfortunately we didn't all make the starting line and for some of us that did it was a roller-coaster of emotions in the weeks leading up to DCM not knowing whether we'd be lining up or not. A really good Pilates class would be a great start and you could back it up with some s&c at home a couple of other evenings. It's definitely worth sacrificing some miles for.

Best of luck with your training to train

Duanington

Just a quick note on the S+C stuff, I'm not sure I'd "sacrifice" miles for it as such....I get the point though, its valuable and is needed but to become better runners, we need to run more. I think a lot of the injuries we see in the lead up to marathon training are down to people not having the right base behind them, they don't have the strength built up to sustain the volume yet.

I think the OP is on the right track here, building mileage, being consistent etc.. adding a bit more structure to the week is great too.

S+C is valuable but I think there is a risk that we sacrifice the hard ( well, easy too...but you get the point) miles required to strengthen the body up, you cannot beat running for that.

I'm a fan of regular S+C by the way but I have the routines down to 10\15 minutes a day at this stage, maybe 1 or 2 longer sessions in the week WHEN I have the time ....but running comes first

ariana`

Duanington wrote: »

Just a quick note on the S+C stuff, I'm not sure I'd "sacrifice" miles for it as such....I get the point though, its valuable and is needed but to become better runners, we need to run more. I think a lot of the injuries we see in the lead up to marathon training are down to people not having the right base behind them, they don't have the strength built up to sustain the volume yet.

I think the OP is on the right track here, building mileage, being consistent etc.. adding a bit more structure to the week is great too.

S+C is valuable but I think there is a risk that we sacrifice the hard ( well, easy too...but you get the point) miles required to strengthen the body up, you cannot beat running for that.

I'm a fan of regular S+C by the way but I have the routines down to 10\15 minutes a day at this stage, maybe 1 or 2 longer sessions in the week WHEN I have the time ....but running comes first

Interesting post... I had a longer post written to Eyrie but i lost it so she got the shortened version but i did acknowledge that she has a much better base built than i had last year so most likely won't have the issues i had but none the less.

I read an article recently, i can't find it now unfortunately but the essence of it was that the gains of doing strength work once per week were not significantly less than the gains made by repeating the strength work twice or three times a week. I took a lot of heart from it as i do from your post as to be honest i'd much rather be running any day than squatting & lunging :rolleyes:

I do wonder then if you don't mind me asking if running strength is gained best by running more then should more emphasis be placed on the drills we do prior to our runs to ensure the right muscles are firing while we're running and good form etc?

Testosterscone

ariana` wrote: »

I do wonder then if you don't mind me asking if running strength is gained best by running more then should more emphasis be placed on the drills we do prior to our runs to ensure the right muscles are firing while we're running and good form etc?

Yes. This is one element that is missing from many plans unfortunately as its seen as a the first thing to drop for most as something additional.

Ideally should be doing drills 2-3 times a week. Personally I tend to like to incorporate them into the warm up of sessions or races, nothing dramatic 10-15 min worth of drills (2-3 times per exercise for 15 sec approx walk back recovery)

- High Knees
- Kick Backs
- A Skips
- High Knee Skip
- Ankle Rotations (fast feet)

These are just a few and hurdle mobility work (step overs, zombies etc) can be great as well. For those who don't have a huge amount of mileage these on an additional day to the running days they have if 3-4 days a week could be hugely beneficial.

Safiri

Duanington wrote: »

Just a quick note on the S+C stuff, I'm not sure I'd "sacrifice" miles for it as such....I get the point though, its valuable and is needed but to become better runners, we need to run more. I think a lot of the injuries we see in the lead up to marathon training are down to people not having the right base behind them, they don't have the strength built up to sustain the volume yet.

I agree fully with you bar the last sentence. It is Volume that builds the strength but people don't increase the volume in the right way. The injuries happen from increasing both the volume and intensity at the same time instead of separately.

Base is where people should build the volume because the intensity is low. Doing so builds strength before starting specific training when the intensity increases. Look at any very fast person and you will see the simple structure in their training; highest volume is achieved of marathon training is achieved before specific training starts.

Steve Magness training

Base mileage(100mpw)
Comp/specific(85mpw)

Peak mileage achieved in Base nearly 3 months before race when intensity is lowish

Amateur runner example

Base(40mpw)
Comp/specific(60mpw)

Peak mileage achieved 3 weeks before race when intensity is highish

See the difference here. The way most amateur runners get it backwards is by increasing everything at once. The way the amateur runner structures training(all those book plans do it too) is like being able to walk 10k and deciding to run 15k a few weeks later which is not a good idea and why so many people get injured or do not progress. If you want to run 20k, you better be able to walk 30 first. It's a metaphor and not literal but hopefully the idea gets across.

You build volume when the intensity is low and you cut volume when the intensity is added.

If people can run 60 miles at low intensity, it is easier to run 45 with intensity because they will be conditioned to do it from the volume in base training rather than running 45 at low intensity in base and try to run 60 at high intensity during the last few weeks.

eyrie

Really interesting responses, thanks for the input everyone. You've given me (and hopefully some other people who find themselves in the same position) lots to think about.
My plan (which I've started, but only just) had been for some 10k training now, before marathon training. But it sounds like a phase of further building might be a better approach.

Testosterscone wrote: »

Do you fade on easy runs over an hour?
Do you pick up niggles when you try increase mileage?
Do you struggle with 5k race paces in training?
What type of races do you find hardest/easiest?
Do you have a high knee lift and good kick back?
Do you struggle physically or mentally in races

Hmm, see trying answer these probably leads me to having to focus on the stuff I don't want to do, which I guess is exactly the point. I suspect my weaknesses are speed and probably form. Likely speed endurance too - I prefer running long (ish) to short and faster, but I take the longer stuff slowly.

Safiri wrote: »

Build up phase should always have the highest mileage every year. It is to prepare your body for specific training both aerobically and conditioning. It is the lowest intensity phase which means it should be easier to run more miles. Mileage should be cut back during specific training as the intensity is higher, most get this backwards and increase both mileage and intensity at once.

This is an interesting way of looking at it, and not one I would have thought of at all. It makes sense.

ariana` wrote: »

I couldn't agree more with this. I think you followed last year's novice thread Eyrie? More than one of us ended up injured. And unfortunately we didn't all make the starting line and for some of us that did it was a roller-coaster of emotions in the weeks leading up to DCM not knowing whether we'd be lining up or not.

Indeed I did, it's part of my motivation to have a go this year! But I remember well following all the highs and lows, and would certainly like to do whatever I can to make sure I get to the day itself in one piece. But sure you'll be grand this time out for your second one

Huzzah!

Testosterscone wrote: »

Generally the same rules apply.

Do you fade on easy runs over an hour?
Do you pick up niggles when you try increase mileage?
Do you struggle with 5k race paces in training?
What type of races do you find hardest/easiest?
Do you have a high knee lift and good kick back?
Do you struggle physically or mentally in races

These can offer good insight into where you need to spend a bit of time working and from there break it down to the level you can handle. For many form and endurance are issues so best to spend time addressing them early on while the mileage naturally increases month after month to the point that training is a seamless transition into marathon specific work.

These questions certainly gave me pause for thought - thanks.

Safiri wrote: »

Depends on how well you want to do...Starting a plan with higher mileage means you will be able to train better and run faster. You want to settle for where you are or be better prepared?

For 5/10k training before marathon with 36 weeks, I would do

10 weeks build up to 50
6 weeks 5/10k specific 35-40
12 weeks build up to 60-65
7-8 weeks marathon specific 50-55
2-3 weeks taper
Race

Not crazy at all if you wanted to.

Again, this is interesting, so thanks. There aren't too many beginner marathon plans that cover that kind of mileage, which makes it tricky.

Safiri wrote: »

You build volume when the intensity is low and you cut volume when the intensity is added.

If people can run 60 miles at low intensity, it is easier to run 45 with intensity because they will be conditioned to do it from the volume in base training rather than running 45 at low intensity in base and try to run 60 at high intensity during the last few weeks.

This might sound really stupid and apologies if it does, but I kind of thought the intensity in following a marathon plan for a first timer would come from the longer runs. So, for example, the Boards plan has one session and one long run per week; all the rest is easy running. Would you still need to have built your base to beyond the highest mileage week of that plan prior to starting it?

skyblue46

Huzzah! wrote: »

These questions certainly gave me pause for thought - thanks.



Again, this is interesting, so thanks. There aren't too many beginner marathon plans that cover that kind of mileage, which makes it tricky.



This might sound really stupid and apologies if it does, but I kind of thought the intensity in following a marathon plan for a first timer would come from the longer runs. So, for example, the Boards plan has one session and one long run per week; all the rest is easy running. Would you still need to have built your base to beyond the highest mileage week of that plan prior to starting it?

I see where you are coming from but don't be daunted by it. Training to this ideal level will be beyond the reach of many novices. The boards plan will do what it says on the tin and get you around. Don't feel you HAVE to be hitting 60 miles a week to do DCM for the first time. If many of the 2018 novices read this thread they would run away in fear!!

Remember Eyrie already has a good base and decent mileage so can use the 36 weeks to maximise potential in that time frame.

ariana`

Huzzah! wrote: »

These questions certainly gave me pause for thought - thanks.



Again, this is interesting, so thanks. There aren't too many beginner marathon plans that cover that kind of mileage, which makes it tricky.



This might sound really stupid and apologies if it does, but I kind of thought the intensity in following a marathon plan for a first timer would come from the longer runs. So, for example, the Boards plan has one session and one long run per week; all the rest is easy running. Would you still need to have built your base to beyond the highest mileage week of that plan prior to starting it?

I'd go so far as to say that even the sessions are run at an easier pace than what some novices might be used to running prior to training for a marathon. Certainly in my case this was true last year. The intensity for me came from the increase in mileage. The 'sessions' were for the most part (if i remember correctly) marathon pace runs and marathon pace for me was a lot slower than my 5/10k pace and wasn't in fact too dissimilar to my easy/lsr pace. I guess this might be different for a subsequent marathon or for a novice with a more ambitious target than i had but for me certainly as an example of a very raw novice the intensity was from the mileage and specifically the long run as all the other runs were in/around an hour which i was well used to prior to training for DCM specifically.

eyrie

Huzzah! wrote: »

This might sound really stupid and apologies if it does, but I kind of thought the intensity in following a marathon plan for a first timer would come from the longer runs. So, for example, the Boards plan has one session and one long run per week; all the rest is easy running. Would you still need to have built your base to beyond the highest mileage week of that plan prior to starting it?

My interpretation of this was the samy as skyblue's - i.e. that you DEFINITELY don't have to be above the peak mileage before starting (this has to be true, since I'm sure only a tiny proportion of first time marathoners would meet this criteria, yet plenty of them finish and finish well), but at the same time that there may be a big benefit to being in this position if you are/can be.

skyblue46 wrote: »

Remember Eyrie already has a good base and decent mileage so can use the 36 weeks to maximise potential in that time frame.

As does Huzzah! And thanks for the vote of confidence

ariana`

skyblue46 wrote: »

I see where you are coming from but don't be daunted by it. Training to this ideal level will be beyond the reach of many novices. The boards plan will do what it says on the tin and get you around. Don't feel you HAVE to be hitting 60 miles a week to do DCM for the first time. If many of the 2018 novices read this thread they would run away in fear!!

Remember Eyrie already has a good base and decent mileage so can use the 36 weeks to maximise potential in that time frame.

Huzzah has a good base too and has no need to feel daunted at all. I'm well jealous of these 2 starting out with such a solid foundation

Safiri

skyblue46 wrote: »

I see where you are coming from but don't be daunted by it. Training to this ideal level will be beyond the reach of many novices. The boards plan will do what it says on the tin and get you around. Don't feel you HAVE to be hitting 60 miles a week to do DCM for the first time. If many of the 2018 novices read this thread they would run away in fear!!

Remember Eyrie already has a good base and decent mileage so can use the 36 weeks to maximise potential in that time frame.

Exactly. The point is showing how you can progress mileage rather than saying run 60 miles, it's an example rather than do this or that. It's another option which depends on how well you want to do.

The higher mileage built up in base, the more options become available for specific training meaning there is more scope for higher intensity. If people are stronger; they can take more intensity and plans can become more specific.

What I say is not gospel but just another point of view to show you can be better prepared for the training if the time frame is long. First time marathon usually use plans like Hal higdon which are not specific but if they put the time an effort in to building a good base before marathon training, they can use a more advanced plan which will get better results as they have prepared for it. Just because it's your first time doesn't mean you have to be a beginner.

skyblue46

eyrie wrote: »

My interpretation of this was the samy as skyblue's - i.e. that you DEFINITELY don't have to be above the peak mileage before starting (this has to be true, since I'm sure only a tiny proportion of first time marathoners would meet this criteria, yet plenty of them finish and finish well), but at the same time that there may be a big benefit to being in this position if you are/can be.



As does Huzzah! And thanks for the vote of confidence

Someone will have to teach me the multi quote thingy! Ah now you know you have my confidence for a long time now I could see through your sandbagging and feigned reluctance to commit to DCM :pac: It's much better that your ambitious training plans are now out in the open.

Absolutely no doubt that if someone is in the position to be able to structure their training for 36 weeks from a decent base to start with will be following a different plan to the Boards novices one by the time it comes around.

skyblue46

ariana` wrote: »

Huzzah has a good base too and has no need to feel daunted at all. I'm well jealous of these 2 starting out with such a solid foundation

Undoubtedly, it'll be a huge advantage to you both!

Huzzah!

eyrie wrote: »

My interpretation of this was the samy as skyblue's - i.e. that you DEFINITELY don't have to be above the peak mileage before starting (this has to be true, since I'm sure only a tiny proportion of first time marathoners would meet this criteria, yet plenty of them finish and finish well), but at the same time that there may be a big benefit to being in this position if you are/can be.

That was actually my understanding as well. My question wasn't phrased very well and I guess I was thinking of it more from an injury prevention point of view, rather than a doing-well point of view, if that makes sense. Anyway, I won't be building to 60mpw, so I guess it's a moot point

Annie get your Run

skyblue46 wrote: »

Someone will have to teach me the multi quote thingy!

See the +" mark to the right of the word QUOTE at the bottom of a post? Click on that in the first post you want to quote and do the same for any other posts you want to include (it will look like nothing is happening...), then for the last post you're including click QUOTE, this will open a box and you'll see all your posts there now Easy peasy .

Testosterscone

Huzzah! wrote: »

These questions certainly gave me pause for thought - thanks.

Huzzah! wrote: »

Again, this is interesting, so thanks. There aren't too many beginner marathon plans that cover that kind of mileage, which makes it tricky.

The question then comes should a marathon training plan be watered down to meet the person or should the person build the base to meet the basic requirements of training. Personally I feel that the likes of Hal Higdon etc are successful due to them being achievable rather than them being most effective

Huzzah! wrote: »

This might sound really stupid and apologies if it does, but I kind of thought the intensity in following a marathon plan for a first timer would come from the longer runs. So, for example, the Boards plan has one session and one long run per week; all the rest is easy running. Would you still need to have built your base to beyond the highest mileage week of that plan prior to starting it?

Yes this is the aim of the boards plan. Remember though this plan is designed with the view that many won't have done the prior work. Its real world application based off general mindsets of people to make the best of a bad situation. People expect to be able to run marathons from little to no base these days and are about passively completing marathons moreso than actively competing. It's getting best bang for your buck.

Think of the boards/Hal Higdon like your secondary school grinds. You could study year round for your Junior/Leaving Cert yet many will pay for weekend study courses to focus on area's to that get them through by going through what is likely to come up in the exams.

eyrie

skyblue46 wrote: »

Someone will have to teach me the multi quote thingy! Ah now you know you have my confidence for a long time now I could see through your sandbagging and feigned reluctance to commit to DCM :pac: It's much better that your ambitious training plans are now out in the open.

Ha! Damn, should have kept my mouth shut :pac: Unfortunately there's a hell of a difference between talking about this kind of training and actually doing it...
In all seriousness I would love to really go for the training and build up the mileage a lot higher, but I've a few other demands (who doesn't) so it's all about the balance. Might have to be a bit less ambitious for now, but we'll see

skyblue46

Annie get your Run wrote: »

See the +" mark to the right of the word QUOTE at the bottom of a post? Click on that in the first post you want to quote and do the same for any other posts you want to include (it will look like nothing is happening...), then for the last post you're including click QUOTE, this will open a box and you'll see all your posts there now Easy peasy .

Ah aren't you some form of a genius! Thank you most kindly

Safiri wrote: »

Exactly. The point is showing how you can progress mileage rather than saying run 60 miles, it's an example rather than do this or that. It's another option which depends on how well you want to do.

The higher mileage built up in base, the more options become available for specific training meaning there is more scope for higher intensity. If people are stronger; they can take more intensity and plans can become more specific.

What I say is not gospel but just another point of view to show you can be better prepared for the training if the time frame is long. First time marathon usually use plans like Hal higdon which are not specific but if they put the time an effort in to building a good base before marathon training, they can use a more advanced plan which will get better results as they have prepared for it. Just because it's your first time doesn't mean you have to be a beginner.

Yes the novice v beginner point is one which I hadn't considered :pac: By beginner I mean the type of person who Testosterscone references above, those with little or no work done prior to week 1 of the plan.

Rossi7

I'm in a similar position myself where I have signed up to DCM and find myself aimlessly just running 30-40 k a week without any plan or structure waiting for the Novices thread to start up in a few months time.
Should I be following some sort of plan or do I just up the mileage week by week

Testosterscone

Rossi7 wrote: »

I'm in a similar position myself where I have signed up to DCM and find myself aimlessly just running 30-40 k a week without any plan or structure waiting for the Novices thread to start up in a few months time.
Should I be following some sort of plan or do I just up the mileage week by week

Plenty of things that can be done

Build endurance
Steady Runs
Long Runs 90 min-2 hr
Progression Runs
Run more

Improve form
Drills
Strides
Short fast reps
Hill reps

Build durability
Hip mobility work (hurdle drills)
Strength and conditioning
light plyometrics
Hills

Build mental toughness
Race regularly
Do cross country
Run undulating reps based on time
Run with people
Hills

More miles is only one element of running, people forget this and focus on the engine to the detriment of everything else which makes a runner

demfad

Safiri wrote: »

I agree fully with you bar the last sentence. It is Volume that builds the strength but people don't increase the volume in the right way. The injuries happen from increasing both the volume and intensity at the same time instead of separately.

Base is where people should build the volume because the intensity is low. Doing so builds strength before starting specific training when the intensity increases. Look at any very fast person and you will see the simple structure in their training; highest volume is achieved of marathon training is achieved before specific training starts.

Steve Magness training

Base mileage(100mpw)
Comp/specific(85mpw)

Peak mileage achieved in Base nearly 3 months before race when intensity is lowish

Amateur runner example

Base(40mpw)
Comp/specific(60mpw)

Peak mileage achieved 3 weeks before race when intensity is highish

See the difference here. The way most amateur runners get it backwards is by increasing everything at once. The way the amateur runner structures training(all those book plans do it too) is like being able to walk 10k and deciding to run 15k a few weeks later which is not a good idea and why so many people get injured or do not progress. If you want to run 20k, you better be able to walk 30 first. It's a metaphor and not literal but hopefully the idea gets across.

You build volume when the intensity is low and you cut volume when the intensity is added.

If people can run 60 miles at low intensity, it is easier to run 45 with intensity because they will be conditioned to do it from the volume in base training rather than running 45 at low intensity in base and try to run 60 at high intensity during the last few weeks.

Most marathon schedules for lower mileages need to be base training oriented anyway because general endurance is the limiting factor.

Safiri

demfad wrote: »

Most marathon schedules for lower mileages need to be base training oriented anyway because general endurance is the limiting factor.

Very true but what if general endurance is improved first with a bigger base? That is what training to train means to me, addressing a weakness for an event that requires that facet to be strong. Just trying to shake it up and sow a seed as they say.

Safiri

Testosterscone wrote: »

More miles is only one element of running, people forget this and focus on the engine to the detriment of everything else which makes a runner

The opposite is more true now than ever, people put more value on supplementary focuses than mileage. My sister in law took up running last year and improved for a while but is stuck on a plateau now. She does that trx yoke 2 times a week and yoga other days and runs twice a week and wonders why she struggles at the end of a 10k or can't improve. Impossible to talk to her because she reads so much from runnersworld and chi running and all that that she is convinced that these are shortcuts. I see this much in the same mould of the low volume HIIT fad of the 90's which left no one running and anyone who was left running well below their ability.

There is a place for these for these in training but like HIIT training in the 90's, the focus should not be to detremint of mileage because in the end; running is a sport of endurance and mileage is king especially in the marathon. The sport is simple at the end of it all but people make it complicated.

demfad

Safiri wrote: »

Very true but what if general endurance is improved first with a bigger base? That is what training to train means to me, addressing a weakness for an event that requires that facet to be strong. Just trying to shake it up and sow a seed as they say.

Fair enough. I think general endurance will still be the limiting factor because the race itself will still be a test of general endurance at this mileage.

A lot of bang for buck can be gained from regular strides especially as the average training pace will be low.

For increasing mileage I would put the emphasis on injury avoidance and boredom avoidance as these will be the main deterrants to a successful outcome.

To avoid injury, mileage can be reduced initially by 10-15% making sure that all elements are included (strides etc.) comfortably. From this comfortable sustainable level, the mileage can be safely cranked up in a controlled manner.

Races are good for avoiding boredom, always changing and trying new types of runs helps too, varying routes and terrain, running by feel, trying new gadgets etc. etc.

For faster type runners who were better sprinters when playing as kids, there is little point in doing threshold stuff if a marathon has to be run within the year. They need more aerobic endurance for long running and running long is the only way. That or focus on shorter distances and build up to the marathon over years when endurance has improved.

Stronger type runners could benefit from such a phase but only if they will have the endurance for the marathon come the race itself: focusing on increasing the LT is wasting time if it means the runner cant translate that to improving marathon pace for the entire lenght of the marathon.

Baby75

What a great thread I am taking it all in taking notes even!

Thank you for posting Eyrie I know I have completed my first Marathon following Boards and my base was max 10km before I started, So you are in a much better position now

This year I still class my self as a novice but feel stronger, and I guess in stead of just completing the marathon which was like a fun LSR in the end as I stayed with my hubby who cycled up beforehand and started overheating so stopped a lot.So I let go of the time I had in my head and just enjoyed the experience But this year I want to train to run it better and see what I can do!

My weakness I think is speed endurance, I can run the distance and love long runs but I want to work on holding a faster pace. so I feel I need to work on those and of course S&C

Kellygirl

A friend reminded me that on the 15th February last year she joined me for my long run of the week - 9km and that was running 1km with 0.5km walking recovery! You guys have so much more mileage done than I had!!

Testosterscone

Safiri wrote: »

The opposite is more true now than ever, people put more value on supplementary focuses than mileage. My sister in law took up running last year and improved for a while but is stuck on a plateau now. She does that trx yoke 2 times a week and yoga other days and runs twice a week and wonders why she struggles at the end of a 10k or can't improve. Impossible to talk to her because she reads so much from runnersworld and chi running and all that that she is convinced that these are shortcuts. I see this much in the same mould of the low volume HIIT fad of the 90's which left no one running and anyone who was left running well below their ability.

There is a place for these for these in training but like HIIT training in the 90's, the focus should not be to detremint of mileage because in the end; running is a sport of endurance and mileage is king especially in the marathon. The sport is simple at the end of it all but people make it complicated.

While this is definitely true with regards what many view as supplementary work my point was referring to the fact that many of run specific work is largely ignored now

Hip Mobility work and drills as part of your warm up is for a session is not supplementary,it should be seen as part of the overall session.
To give you an example

1-3 mile warm up,
Dynamic stretching
8x100m strides + 15-20 min drills
Main Session
1-3 mile Cooldown
Static Stretching

This is not supplementary work, these are all elements of the overall package many of which gets largely ignored and as a result we become one dimensional runners by in large with poor running form and higher risk of injury

Yoga, TRX, Crossfit, what ever are supplementary to running and while there may be a cross over benefit it is less deliberate whereas they mentioned above would be designed with purposely within an overall training plan

Coffee Fulled Runner

Hi Testosterscone just wondering what other drills you'd advice bar the usual high knees, A and B skip, bum kicks, Straight leg bounds?

Testosterscone

Coffee Fulled Runner wrote: »

Hi Testosterscone just wondering what other drills you'd advice bar the usual high knees, A and B skip, bum kicks, Straight leg bounds?

Should give you a few idea's

https://www.facebook.com/jopocoaching/videos/743177949220725/?hc_ref=ARSjfbq1oOvlcrJibMNoJqFxqMeEkSbcnB6GPmd99Mwondf15w2eN9DyPp_LAb3mSFs

Baby75

Testosterscone wrote: »

Should give you a few idea's

https://www.facebook.com/jopocoaching/videos/743177949220725/?hc_ref=ARSjfbq1oOvlcrJibMNoJqFxqMeEkSbcnB6GPmd99Mwondf15w2eN9DyPp_LAb3mSFs

They are really great thanks so much I looked them up yesterday but that video is much better than what I found

skyblue46

I can see a few faceplants in my future when I try some of those! Haha

Baby75

skyblue46 wrote: »

I can see a few faceplants in my future when I try some of those! Haha

I had to stand and practice the knee-high rhythm kick but I can do it now, always wanted to do that one LOL

joey1111

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

36 weeks = 3 nice blocks.

12 weeks of ramping up your mileage, running as frequently as you can. Focus on extending your long run over this period to 2hrs+, a splattering of strides, some hill work (short sprints and hilly longer runs) and some comfortable tempo work (3 x 10mins, easy out steady back runs). This will give you a solid foundation.

8 weeks of 5-10k training with a goal race at the end (search for the 10k McMillian thread).

Then get into a 16 marathon plan.

Safiri wrote: »

Depends on how well you want to do...Starting a plan with higher mileage means you will be able to train better and run faster. You want to settle for where you are or be better prepared?

For 5/10k training before marathon with 36 weeks, I would do

10 weeks build up to 50
6 weeks 5/10k specific 35-40
12 weeks build up to 60-65
7-8 weeks marathon specific 50-55
2-3 weeks taper
Race

Not crazy at all if you wanted to.

Build up would include easy fartleks with perceived effort of 5-6 out of 10. Moderate steady state runs between easy and marathon pace. Out and back routes coming back faster than than you go out. Strides, hill sprints, flying 100's/200's with float recovery.

Marathon Specific would be mid week interval workout 5-10 seconds faster than marathon pace, alternating long runs between steady and easy(1 mile steady; 1 mile 1 minute slower; 1 mile steady etc). Fast finish long runs, fartleks etc. Cut back mileage when transitioning from Build up to specific to account for increase in intensity.

5/10k specific would be repeats working at faster than race pace to cruise intervals at tempo pace. If doing 2 workouts per week; alternate 1 workout at mile/3k pace one week with tempo intervals next week. Second workout more specific at race pace. Cut back mileage transitioning from Build up to specific phase to account for increase in intensity.

Build up phase should always have the highest mileage every year. It is to prepare your body for specific training both aerobically and conditioning. It is the lowest intensity phase which means it should be easier to run more miles. Mileage should be cut back during specific training as the intensity is higher, most get this backwards and increase both mileage and intensity at once.

Testosterscone wrote: »

Generally the same rules apply.

I remember seeing an old article for Novice Marathon runners from about 30 years back recently, similar to the advice type columns you get in Runners World or Irish Runner. One of the points would be that you should keep building slowly until you are consistently running 60 miles per week 8 weeks prior to Goal Marathon. This may seem alien in today's approach for many but it is solid advice.

Most of us don't have the strength to that sort of work so you need to scale it back to suit your own needs so for example a typical session for a marathon runner is

20-40 min tempo

If this is too hard for your current level scale it back

3-4* 8-10 min tempo with 3 min recovery

Still working too hard in the session or picking up niggles and not recovering? Scale it back again

3-4 x (4,3,2,1 min Tempo with 60 second recovery) 3 min

breaking it down to a level that fits where you are vs where you want to be gives you a starting point and from here you can gradually build the session up to be able. This is what I mean by training to train.

Rather that say do x or y ask yourself the following questions and it will give you an idea of whether you need to work on in early stages and from there break things right down to the level you are at rather than hoping by running particular sessions you will get the the place you wanna be fitness wise.

Do you fade on easy runs over an hour?
Do you pick up niggles when you try increase mileage?
Do you struggle with 5k race paces in training?
What type of races do you find hardest/easiest?
Do you have a high knee lift and good kick back?
Do you struggle physically or mentally in races

These can offer good insight into where you need to spend a bit of time working and from there break it down to the level you can handle. For many form and endurance are issues so best to spend time addressing them early on while the mileage naturally increases month after month to the point that training is a seamless transition into marathon specific work.

Safiri wrote: »

I agree fully with you bar the last sentence. It is Volume that builds the strength but people don't increase the volume in the right way. The injuries happen from increasing both the volume and intensity at the same time instead of separately.

Base is where people should build the volume because the intensity is low. Doing so builds strength before starting specific training when the intensity increases. Look at any very fast person and you will see the simple structure in their training; highest volume is achieved of marathon training is achieved before specific training starts.

Steve Magness training

Base mileage(100mpw)
Comp/specific(85mpw)

Peak mileage achieved in Base nearly 3 months before race when intensity is lowish

Amateur runner example

Base(40mpw)
Comp/specific(60mpw)

Peak mileage achieved 3 weeks before race when intensity is highish

See the difference here. The way most amateur runners get it backwards is by increasing everything at once. The way the amateur runner structures training(all those book plans do it too) is like being able to walk 10k and deciding to run 15k a few weeks later which is not a good idea and why so many people get injured or do not progress. If you want to run 20k, you better be able to walk 30 first. It's a metaphor and not literal but hopefully the idea gets across.

You build volume when the intensity is low and you cut volume when the intensity is added.

If people can run 60 miles at low intensity, it is easier to run 45 with intensity because they will be conditioned to do it from the volume in base training rather than running 45 at low intensity in base and try to run 60 at high intensity during the last few weeks.

Safiri wrote: »

Exactly. The point is showing how you can progress mileage rather than saying run 60 miles, it's an example rather than do this or that. It's another option which depends on how well you want to do.

The higher mileage built up in base, the more options become available for specific training meaning there is more scope for higher intensity. If people are stronger; they can take more intensity and plans can become more specific.

What I say is not gospel but just another point of view to show you can be better prepared for the training if the time frame is long. First time marathon usually use plans like Hal higdon which are not specific but if they put the time an effort in to building a good base before marathon training, they can use a more advanced plan which will get better results as they have prepared for it. Just because it's your first time doesn't mean you have to be a beginner.

Testosterscone wrote: »

The question then comes should a marathon training plan be watered down to meet the person or should the person build the base to meet the basic requirements of training. Personally I feel that the likes of Hal Higdon etc are successful due to them being achievable rather than them being most effective



Yes this is the aim of the boards plan. Remember though this plan is designed with the view that many won't have done the prior work. Its real world application based off general mindsets of people to make the best of a bad situation. People expect to be able to run marathons from little to no base these days and are about passively completing marathons moreso than actively competing. It's getting best bang for your buck.

Think of the boards/Hal Higdon like your secondary school grinds. You could study year round for your Junior/Leaving Cert yet many will pay for weekend study courses to focus on area's to that get them through by going through what is likely to come up in the exams.

Testosterscone wrote: »

Plenty of things that can be done

Build endurance
Steady Runs
Long Runs 90 min-2 hr
Progression Runs
Run more

Improve form
Drills
Strides
Short fast reps
Hill reps

Build durability
Hip mobility work (hurdle drills)
Strength and conditioning
light plyometrics
Hills

Build mental toughness
Race regularly
Do cross country
Run undulating reps based on time
Run with people
Hills

More miles is only one element of running, people forget this and focus on the engine to the detriment of everything else which makes a runner

Safiri wrote: »

The opposite is more true now than ever, people put more value on supplementary focuses than mileage. My sister in law took up running last year and improved for a while but is stuck on a plateau now. She does that trx yoke 2 times a week and yoga other days and runs twice a week and wonders why she struggles at the end of a 10k or can't improve. Impossible to talk to her because she reads so much from runnersworld and chi running and all that that she is convinced that these are shortcuts. I see this much in the same mould of the low volume HIIT fad of the 90's which left no one running and anyone who was left running well below their ability.

There is a place for these for these in training but like HIIT training in the 90's, the focus should not be to detremint of mileage because in the end; running is a sport of endurance and mileage is king especially in the marathon. The sport is simple at the end of it all but people make it complicated.

demfad wrote: »

Fair enough. I think general endurance will still be the limiting factor because the race itself will still be a test of general endurance at this mileage.

A lot of bang for buck can be gained from regular strides especially as the average training pace will be low.

For increasing mileage I would put the emphasis on injury avoidance and boredom avoidance as these will be the main deterrants to a successful outcome.

To avoid injury, mileage can be reduced initially by 10-15% making sure that all elements are included (strides etc.) comfortably. From this comfortable sustainable level, the mileage can be safely cranked up in a controlled manner.

Races are good for avoiding boredom, always changing and trying new types of runs helps too, varying routes and terrain, running by feel, trying new gadgets etc. etc.

For faster type runners who were better sprinters when playing as kids, there is little point in doing threshold stuff if a marathon has to be run within the year. They need more aerobic endurance for long running and running long is the only way. That or focus on shorter distances and build up to the marathon over years when endurance has improved.

Stronger type runners could benefit from such a phase but only if they will have the endurance for the marathon come the race itself: focusing on increasing the LT is wasting time if it means the runner cant translate that to improving marathon pace for the entire lenght of the marathon.

Testosterscone wrote: »

While this is definitely true with regards what many view as supplementary work my point was referring to the fact that many of run specific work is largely ignored now

Hip Mobility work and drills as part of your warm up is for a session is not supplementary,it should be seen as part of the overall session.
To give you an example

1-3 mile warm up,
Dynamic stretching
8x100m strides + 15-20 min drills
Main Session
1-3 mile Cooldown
Static Stretching

This is not supplementary work, these are all elements of the overall package many of which gets largely ignored and as a result we become one dimensional runners by in large with poor running form and higher risk of injury

Yoga, TRX, Crossfit, what ever are supplementary to running and while there may be a cross over benefit it is less deliberate whereas they mentioned above would be designed with purposely within an overall training plan

Personally these responses above are the type of posts I would love to see more of in this forum.

Even when responding to people who are looking for advice, its constructive, informative and even interesting to read for those who are already experienced runners.

Hedgehoggy

This is a great source of expertise for a novice runner like myself. I have been looking for imformation on improving my running times and endurance and I can't believe the advice on here.
My own situation is that I took up running to try to get back into exercise and sports having given up playing football and have fallen in love with it - and I'm realising that I have been making some mistakes in my training!

As part of my 'training to train' I'm thinking of dropping a few pounds - Not overweight or anything but think it could be beneficial. I'm a huge carb lover - porridge, bread, potatoes are staples for me. Just wondering about whether people on here would recommend a high protein diet / low carb diet? Or would a calories in / calories out approach be OK. I eat relatively healthy (but probably like a lot of people could always do better and should definitely cut down on the coffee!!!). Maybe this is very individual?

Also - I've found the 10k training thread that was recommended a few posts back and will give it a go. Is there any book or other reading that people would recommend?

(I'm a complete newbie to boards so maybe this is the wrong thread to post this in?)

skyblue46

Hedgehoggy wrote: »

This is a great source of expertise for a novice runner like myself. I have been looking for imformation on improving my running times and endurance and I can't believe the advice on here.
My own situation is that I took up running to try to get back into exercise and sports having given up playing football and have fallen in love with it - and I'm realising that I have been making some mistakes in my training!

As part of my 'training to train' I'm thinking of dropping a few pounds - Not overweight or anything but think it could be beneficial. I'm a huge carb lover - porridge, bread, potatoes are staples for me. Just wondering about whether people on here would recommend a high protein diet / low carb diet? Or would a calories in / calories out approach be OK. I eat relatively healthy (but probably like a lot of people could always do better and should definitely cut down on the coffee!!!). Maybe this is very individual?

Also - I've found the 10k training thread that was recommended a few posts back and will give it a go. Is there any book or other reading that people would recommend?

(I'm a complete newbie to boards so maybe this is the wrong thread to post this in?)

It's as good a thread as any to start on. Welcome

So what sort of distances are you running, how often do you get out, have you tried any races? A bit of running info like that will help when it comes to people offering advice.

Hedgehoggy

skyblue46 wrote: »

It's as good a thread as any to start on. Welcome

So what sort of distances are you running, how often do you get out, have you tried any races? A bit of running info like that will help when it comes to people offering advice.

Thanks - I'm trying to build up my mileage at the moment. I did a 5k just before Christmas (21.47) and a 10k recently in Feb (46.17). I had done a 10k last May in which I had done a 48.17 - so I am making progress. Aiming for a sub-45 10k this year. Have half an eye to Dublin Marathon - but I'm finding that I love the challenge of getting quicker over 5 and 10ks.

I'm doing about 17 miles per week and have realised from reading this thread that this isnt really enough. I do a lot of 5ks in training - around 3 times a week and one longer run 6 - 8 miles - so I'm thinking of replacing one of these at least with a 30 - 40 min run or tempo run and doing more intervals (e.g. start building up from 5 1k intervals to 10 intervals). Will also start doing a longer run at the end of the week.

The reason I'm asking about the diet really is because I'm enjoying the challenge so much that I want to see just how far I can push myself. Wondering what lifestyle changes I can make to get those extra inches - thinking alcohol is going to go anyway (but I rarely drink anyway so wouldn't be a major change). I'm 5'4'' and just under 9 stone - I guess I'm not looking to lose weight - maybe it would be better to think of it as reducing body mass!

skyblue46

Hedgehoggy wrote: »

Thanks - I'm trying to build up my mileage at the moment. I did a 5k just before Christmas (21.47) and a 10k recently in Feb (46.17). I had done a 10k last May in which I had done a 48.17 - so I am making progress. Aiming for a sub-45 10k this year. Have half an eye to Dublin Marathon - but I'm finding that I love the challenge of getting quicker over 5 and 10ks.

I'm doing about 17 miles per week and have realised from reading this thread that this isnt really enough. I do a lot of 5ks in training - around 3 times a week and one longer run 6 - 8 miles - so I'm thinking of replacing one of these at least with a 30 - 40 min run or tempo run and doing more intervals (e.g. start building up from 5 1k intervals to 10 intervals). Will also start doing a longer run at the end of the week.

The reason I'm asking about the diet really is because I'm enjoying the challenge so much that I want to see just how far I can push myself. Wondering what lifestyle changes I can make to get those extra inches - thinking alcohol is going to go anyway (but I rarely drink anyway so wouldn't be a major change). I'm 5'4'' and just under 9 stone - I guess I'm not looking to lose weight - maybe it would be better to think of it as reducing body mass!

Haha. Well I wouldn't be qualified to give you advice on the rights and wrongs of the number or length of intervals you should do. I'm only running regularly for 11 months now. The advice I have received on here has been invaluable. It's very impressive to be running such times on 17 miles a week training. If you really want to see how far you can push yourself then joining a club is probably the single best thing you could do....says he who still hasn't!!

demfad

Hedgehoggy wrote: »

Thanks - I'm trying to build up my mileage at the moment. I did a 5k just before Christmas (21.47) and a 10k recently in Feb (46.17). I had done a 10k last May in which I had done a 48.17 - so I am making progress. Aiming for a sub-45 10k this year. Have half an eye to Dublin Marathon - but I'm finding that I love the challenge of getting quicker over 5 and 10ks.

I'm doing about 17 miles per week and have realised from reading this thread that this isnt really enough. I do a lot of 5ks in training - around 3 times a week and one longer run 6 - 8 miles - so I'm thinking of replacing one of these at least with a 30 - 40 min run or tempo run and doing more intervals (e.g. start building up from 5 1k intervals to 10 intervals). Will also start doing a longer run at the end of the week.

The reason I'm asking about the diet really is because I'm enjoying the challenge so much that I want to see just how far I can push myself. Wondering what lifestyle changes I can make to get those extra inches - thinking alcohol is going to go anyway (but I rarely drink anyway so wouldn't be a major change). I'm 5'4'' and just under 9 stone - I guess I'm not looking to lose weight - maybe it would be better to think of it as reducing body mass!

Try to aim for 30 miles. Add an extra run every week.
The 5ks are probably tempo efforts so lose one (make it easy and longer) and add a little distance to the other two.
Add in strides. 80- 100m relaxed reps with good form. Start at 6 work up till 10. After easy runs. If I could make changes to my running history it would be increasing mileage early and always incorporating strides.
To encourage try a timetrial over a mile or 3000m every 2-3 weeks. Try and get your mile time down. Youll be doing 5ks, parkruns anyway Im sure.
Gradually increase the weekly long run.

Hedgehoggy

demfad wrote: »

Try to aim for 30 miles. Add an extra run every week.
The 5ks are probably tempo efforts so lose one (make it easy and longer) and add a little distance to the other two.
Add in strides. 80- 100m relaxed reps with good form. Start at 6 work up till 10. After easy runs. If I could make changes to my running history it would be increasing mileage early and always incorporating strides.
To encourage try a timetrial over a mile or 3000m every 2-3 weeks. Try and get your mile time down. Youll be doing 5ks, parkruns anyway Im sure.
Gradually increase the weekly long run.

Thanks demfad - did my first set of strides after an easy run today. Quite a nice way of getting rid of any stress or work frustration!