AGS actively covering up murders

Raging_Ninja

http://www.rte.ie/news/2018/0202/937811-homicide/

Most of us figured that Garda management were being pushed to hide less serious crimes but that murders would at least be treated honestly. But now it looks like they've been doing it for even the most serious of crimes as well, probably in order to push the political narrative that crime is trending downwards (more like people have given up reporting crimes) in order to justify the closure of stations and budget restrictions.

I'm pretty damned angry about this.

McMurphy

Alan Kelly seems to be a bit of a smoking gun lately.

He was an insufferable cretin during the water charges fiasco and his power/drug election waffle.

But fair dues to him on his campaign to expose the rot that seems to be fairly prevalent From within AGS and the DOJ.

SEPT 23 1989

It needs the RUC treatment

McMurphy

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

It needs the RUC treatment

This completely.

Allinall

Over report breath tests- bad guards

Under report murders- bad guards.

They can’t do right for doing wrong.

McMurphy

Allinall wrote: »

Over report breath tests- bad guards

Under report murders- bad guards.

They can’t do right for doing wrong.

If they could just fcuking actually report accurately - that'd prob be acceptable to most of us.

mad thought I know, but I'm just throwing it out there.

I can think of one case close to me where there should really have been an investigation but it was dismissed out of hand. And then the inquest was pushed back a few times because the Gardai weren't arsed showing up. Then they lied and it was pushed again.

givyjoe

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

It needs the RUC treatment

Except, it will still be the same dodgy people in charge and minions carrying out the orders. Just like dodgy private companies changing the name above the door, to provide the illusion of change, e.g. EY.

SEPT 23 1989

givyjoe wrote: »

Except, it will still be the same dodgy people in charge and minions carrying out the orders. Just like dodgy private companies changing the name above the door, to provide the illusion of change, e.g. EY.

pension off the top tier and get people in from outside of the country

lalababa

The Garda as an institution could historically do as they pleased. Virtually anything could be done and covered up..with abosolutly no consequences for the members involved or their superiors. We have seen this over and over again through the years, scandal after scandal, with an a yera what can you do sure we'll chalk it down and move on approch.
I have no faith in the institution, zero. It's rotten top to bottom. The judiciary and prison system is not fit for purpose not even the civil law courts. Individually the Garda s themselfs most are ok normal human beings trying to work.
Politically there is no appetite for reform because I'm alright Jack etc. The only way is to try to vote in someone / party that actively campaigns on a reform platform.
Not much chance of this.

#Smokey#

lalababa wrote: »

The Garda as an institution could historically do as they pleased. Virtually anything could be done and covered up..with abosolutly no consequences for the members involved or their superiors. We have seen this over and over again through the years, scandal after scandal, with an a yera what can you do sure we'll chalk it down and move on approch.
I have no faith in the institution, zero. It's rotten top to bottom. The judiciary and prison system is not fit for purpose not even the civil law courts. Individually the Garda s themselfs most are ok normal human beings trying to work.
Politically there is no appetite for reform because I'm alright Jack etc. The only way is to try to vote in someone / party that actively campaigns on a reform platform.
Not much chance of this.

Most of us are ok people but aren't willing to speak out against wrongdoing when the rest of our colleagues are actively "going after" anyone who speaks out and making their lives hell. A few folks are willing to be martyrs and speak out knowing that their career is over but for most people digging your head in the sand or just going along with it is the best option.

When corruption exists on all levels who can you go to?
When the ombudsman's own offices are being bugged by the people you are supposed to be holding to a higher standard, how can you have confidence in their ability to do anything without the suspects knowing?

Captain Obvious

Wouldn't these coverups have come to light in the coroners inquest?

koumi

#Smokey# wrote: »

Most of us are ok people but aren't willing to speak out against wrongdoing when the rest of our colleagues are actively "going after" anyone who speaks out and making their lives hell. A few folks are willing to be martyrs and speak out knowing that their career is over but for most people digging your head in the sand or just going along with it is the best option.

When corruption exists on all levels who can you go to?
When the ombudsman's own offices are being bugged by the people you are supposed to be holding to a higher standard, how can you have confidence in their ability to do anything without the suspects knowing?

If more people stood up against corruption, less people would end up being martyred.

banie01

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Wouldn't these coverups have come to light in the coroners inquest?

Very seldom is coroners inquest anymore than a box ticking exercise to allow a death certificate to issue.
The evidence presented is rarely challenged and where the Gardaí confirm that no criminal investigation is ongoing the verdict is usually in line with whatever is reported as cause of death.

Captain Obvious

The Times has them as civilian members.

Now, however, two civilian Garda staff have claimed in protected disclosures that some murder cases, and other homicides, were not fully investigated as such, and that they have evidence to back up their allegations.

I was thinking that would be odd as they wouldn't have access to full investigations. Alan Kelly seems to be naming them as actual Gardaí which would be more reliable as a source. It will be interesting to hear the details of these cases. Whether they are right or wrong, it's good to see the protected disclosures system being used by members to bring forward concerns.

Captain Obvious

banie01 wrote: »

Very seldom is coroners inquest anymore than a box ticking exercise to allow a death certificate to issue.
The evidence presented is rarely challenged and where the Gardaí confirm that no criminal investigation is ongoing the verdict is usually in line with whatever is reported as cause of death.

But wouldn't the cause of death be indicative of the circumstances more often then not. Sure it can be difficult to discern between an accidental overdose and a suicide but murders are more obvious. I'll be interested to see what kind of cases they are. Are we talking cases where everyone suspected a murder but no evidence could be found or are we looking at deliberate coverups?

wexie

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Wouldn't these coverups have come to light in the coroners inquest?

may not be a coroners inquest if there is no investigation. Then the coroner probably won't ever get involved. Will just be a post mortem by a pathologist in whatever hospital (if that).

wexie

Captain Obvious wrote: »

But wouldn't the cause of death be indicative of the circumstances more often then not. Sure it can be difficult to discern between an accidental overdose and a suicide but murders are more obvious. I'll be interested to see what kind of cases they are. Are we talking cases where everyone suspected a murder but no evidence could be found or are we looking at deliberate coverups?

What about the difference between someone falling down the stairs and being pushed down the stairs?

It's not all gun and knife wounds....

#Smokey#

koumi wrote: »

If more people stood up against corruption, less people would end up being martyred.

Very true but in this day and age it seems that few are willing to stand up. Keeping a stable job and career going, no matter what illegal or morally wrong **** you see going on around you, is the top priority.

This is only my opinion of course and I hope that in the future the ombudsman or another organisation is formed that is capable to protect and support whistleblowers, whilst simultaneously thoroughly investigating all corruption claims using any and all means that the guards have access to themselves including surveillance using a dedicated unit perhaps even made up of other whistleblowers to keep the corruption from tainting it.

But this is Ireland and although the government and politicians might tell us that is in the works the reality is that the guards will always just get a slap on the wrist or being told to sit in the bold corner if anything.

McMurphy

Captain Obvious wrote: »

The Times has them as civilian members.



I was thinking that would be odd as they wouldn't have access to full investigations. Alan Kelly seems to be naming them as actual Gardahich would be more reliable as a source. It will be interesting to hear the details of these cases. Whether they are right or wrong, it's good to see the protected disclosures system being used by members to bring forward concerns.

Unless it was the same civilian staff that over reported the 1.5 million breath tests BS. That's highly debatable.

banie01

Captain Obvious wrote: »

But wouldn't the cause of death be indicative of the circumstances more often then not. Sure it can be difficult to discern between an accidental overdose and a suicide but murders are more obvious. I'll be interested to see what kind of cases they are. Are we talking cases where everyone suspected a murder but no evidence could be found or are we looking at deliberate coverups?

I know of 1 specific incident that was deemed a suicide at coroner's court.
This was unusual enough in itself in that the deceased, left no note and made noone aware of his intentions prior to the event(Which in Ireland usually completely precludes a verdict of suicide).
What made it even stranger was that the deceased, managed to commit suicide by hanging whilst his hands were tied behind his back.

The verdict of a coroner's court is wholly dependent on the evidence presented, skew the evidence and the verdict becomes whatever those controlling the evidence want it to be.

nelly17

So covering up a murder is criminal right? What about covering up a number of murders?

Captain Obvious

wexie wrote: »

may not be a coroners inquest if there is no investigation. Then the coroner probably won't ever get involved. Will just be a post mortem by a pathologist in whatever hospital (if that).

An inquest isn't dependent on an investigation, it's based on the dead persons circumstances. Anything unusual would generally go before an inquest.

wexie wrote: »

What about the difference between someone falling down the stairs and being pushed down the stairs?

That was the example I was thinking of in my follow up posts. Is it cases where everyone knows but nobody can prove anything.

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Unless it was the same civilian staff that over reported the 1.5 million breath tests BS. That's highly debatable.

The issue being that civilian staff wouldn't generally have access to full investigation files.

banie01 wrote: »

I know of 1 specific incident that was deemed a suicide at coroner's court.
This was unusual enough in itself in that the deceased, left no note and made noone aware of his intentions prior to the event(Which in Ireland usually completely precludes a verdict of suicide).
What made it even stranger was that the deceased, managed to commit suicide by hanging whilst his hands were tied behind his back.

The verdict of a coroner's court is wholly dependent on the evidence presented, skew the evidence and the verdict becomes whatever those controlling the evidence want it to be.

Certainly an unusual verdict. Coroners are generally very reluctant to issue suicide verdicts.

This is really a f*king joke at this stage!

suicide_circus

Father Ted Crilly: There was a time when the police in this country were friends of the church; speeding tickets torn up, drunk driving charges quashed, even a blind eye turned to the odd murder

wexie

Captain Obvious wrote: »

An inquest isn't dependent on an investigation, it's based on the dead persons circumstances. Anything unusual would generally go before an inquest.

Yes but it's up to the gards to decide what's considered unusual. And if the guards aren't involved a body (no disrespect meant here) never goes before the coroner but the hospital pathologist.

I know someone involved in post mortems (hospital, NOT coroner) who has told me of more than one case where the hospital team told the gards 'are you really sure this doesn't warrant further investigation? Cause we are aware of the circumstances and we believe it requires some closer scrutiny'

All were cases of domestic (elder) abuse.

Hence my example of falling down the stairs or being pushed down the stairs.
Same with accidental overdoses on prescription meds, etc, etc.

koumi

#Smokey# wrote: »

Very true but in this day and age it seems that few are willing to stand up. Keeping a stable job and career going, no matter what illegal or morally wrong **** you see going on around you, is the top priority.

This is only my opinion of course and I hope that in the future the ombudsman or another organisation is formed that is capable to protect and support whistleblowers, whilst simultaneously thoroughly investigating all corruption claims using any and all means that the guards have access to themselves including surveillance using a dedicated unit perhaps even made up of other whistleblowers to keep the corruption from tainting it.

But this is Ireland and although the government and politicians might tell us that is in the works the reality is that the guards will always just get a slap on the wrist or being told to sit in the bold corner if anything.

I'm going to go out on a limb and make a wild prediction. Following the Charleton tribunal, The Taoiseach will formally announce the introduction of an independent anti corruption agency, which will have powers to oversee all bodies, institutions and organisations, individuals and parties, both private and public with legal authority to conduct investigations and pursue criminal charges or penalties in every respect.

Leo will then be the Irish equivalent of superman, thor and Jesus combined and we will love him forever and build statues in his honor and dedicate a public holiday to him.*

*or we could just say well done on doing a good job.

wexie

koumi wrote: »

The Taoiseach will formally announce the introduction of an independent anti corruption agency, which will have powers to oversee all bodies, institutions and organisations, individuals and parties, both private and public with legal authority to conduct investigations and pursue criminal charges or penalties in every respect.

And which will be staffed by person recruited from all of those bodies, institutions and organisations....

Cause that's how these things tend to be done here it would seem.

'shure, where else would we find the necessary expertise'
'no of course they no longer have any loyalties to the place they spent most of the past 20 odd years in....they know which side their bread is buttered'

#Smokey#

koumi wrote: »

I'm going to go out on a limb and make a wild prediction. Following the Charleton tribunal, The Taoiseach will formally announce the introduction of an independent anti corruption agency, which will have powers to oversee all bodies, institutions and organisations, individuals and parties, both private and public with legal authority to conduct investigations and pursue criminal charges or penalties in every respect.

Leo will then be the Irish equivalent of superman, thor and Jesus combined and we will love him forever and build statues in his honor and dedicate a public holiday to him.*

*or we could just say well done on doing a good job.

Paddy Power might give you odds on that if your a betting man. Won't be good odds but they will take your money nonetheless :rolleyes::rolleyes:

koumi

wexie wrote: »

And which will be staffed by person recruited from all of those bodies, institutions and organisations....

Cause that's how these things tend to be done here it would seem.

independent

wexie

Captain Obvious wrote: »

That was the example I was thinking of in my follow up posts. Is it cases where everyone knows but nobody can prove anything.

I think sometimes it just may be pure laziness*, as in there is an easy alternate explanation for this and we can save our selves a bit of paperwork and headache here.

(or, quite possibly just the thought of having to work with little resources, support etc. laziness is probably unfair as I do believe many many gards like to do a decent job. But bejayzus it can't be easy considering the state of the justice system here and all that jazz. Can't be easy for gards to have arrested some scumbag for whatever, only for said scumbag to be turned back out onto the public after their umpteenth conviction. Demoralising you might even say)

enricoh

koumi wrote: »

If more people stood up against corruption, less people would end up being martyred.

They tried to pin Maurice McCabe as a paedophile ffs. If u we're considering being a whistleblower and saw that would you still go ahead.
If they managed to nail him for that, it'd be a possible jail term, sacked and virtually unemployable.
Or else do u say nothing, get paid and be able to pay the mortgage and the creche. And a great pension in years to come.I'd say 99% would say nothing.

wexie

koumi wrote: »

independent

Yeah I got that, where do you think the people working for this imaginary independent anti-corruption body will come from?

Cause unless they're all going to be recruited straight out of college or from abroad I'm going to go ahead and guess they already have some allegiances somewhere.

Then again some might say I'm overly cynical

koumi

wexie wrote: »

Then again some might say I'm overly cynical

Most people are, under the circumstances.

seamus

This is not new information.

I see Alan Kelly was worried that nobody was talking about him anymore.

diomed

The closest we can get to Serpico is that it is an anagram of Cops Ire.
Fecking brilliant name for a new Irish police organisation. (copyright).

Captain Obvious

wexie wrote: »

Yes but it's up to the gards to decide what's considered unusual. And if the guards aren't involved a body (no disrespect meant here) never goes before the coroner but the hospital pathologist.

I know someone involved in post mortems (hospital, NOT coroner) who has told me of more than one case where the hospital team told the gards 'are you really sure this doesn't warrant further investigation? Cause we are aware of the circumstances and we believe it requires some closer scrutiny'

All were cases of domestic (elder) abuse.

Hence my example of falling down the stairs or being pushed down the stairs.
Same with accidental overdoses on prescription meds, etc, etc.

The Gardaí can decide whether to investigate the matter criminally but only the coroners office decides if an inquest is required.

wexie wrote: »

I think sometimes it just may be pure laziness*, as in there is an easy alternate explanation for this and we can save our selves a bit of paperwork and headache here.

(or, quite possibly just the thought of having to work with little resources, support etc. laziness is probably unfair as I do believe many many gards like to do a decent job. But bejayzus it can't be easy considering the state of the justice system here and all that jazz. Can't be easy for gards to have arrested some scumbag for whatever, only for said scumbag to be turned back out onto the public after their umpteenth conviction. Demoralising you might even say)

Really they could be anything. A person gets injured in a fight and goes to hospital. While in hospital they get an infection and die. Is the original crime an assault or a murder? Can you link the infection to the injuries sustained in the assault? Or the recent case where the man had a heart attack when he confronted burglars. If they weren't there he wouldn't have died that day but can they be held criminally liable for his death? How is a relatively unique set of circumstances like that categorised?

seamus

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Really they could be anything.

Also, while the focus here is on potential murders, the overall question is one of classification - traffic accidents being classed as accidents when they may not be. For example, if a guy crashes head on into another car in a suicide attempt and everyone dies, what is that? Suicide? Murder-Suicide? Manslaughter-suicide?

These may be classified as an accident - for whatever reason - and would be part of this issue.

It's worth noting that some of these classification issues are around cases that have been resolved in the courts, just not recorded properly within internal Garda system.

There aren't 41 murderers wandering around freely because the Gardai are covering for them, or couldn't be bothered investigating the case.

The fact that the Policing Authority are having trouble extracting information from the Gardai is telling enough in itself. But let's not make the mistake of claiming that there are 41 murders sitting in plain sight that everyone is pretending didn't happen.