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Stakeknife Arrested.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,551 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Nope, the goal of the British was to defeat the IRA.

    The IRA are no more, therefore technically they won that goal.

    Part of Britain? Don't be ridiculous. The north is currently under British jurisdiction subject to change in the GFA. The north is a contested region.

    Contested by whom exactly? Finland?

    Mainland Britain would get rid of the place tomorrow if they could. Most Irish would baulk at the cost of a UI. We cant even get ourselves to pay for water, yet we are going to stump up Billions upon billions to carry the North. NI is like pass the parcel, no one really wants it.

    Won what exactly? A trophy?

    The war.


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,838 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Is this an episode of Cycle's Apprentice?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    markodaly wrote: »
    The IRA are no more, therefore technically they won that goal.

    Will you guys make up your minds? What happened to the whole SF/IRA shtick?
    Contested by whom exactly?

    The people living there, the Irish political parties, and the goal of a United Ireland is codified in the constitution: 'It is the firm will of the Irish nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland'.

    Most Irish would baulk at the cost of a UI.

    If we were to take it on with all its issues overnight and alone? Perhaps, but that's not how it will happen.
    The war.

    Nobody won the conflict. It was a terrible waste of life and cause of misery. This whole 'we won' thing is incredibly childish.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,551 ✭✭✭✭markodaly




    If we were to take it on with all its issues overnight and alone? Perhaps, but that's not how it will happen.

    So how would it happen?

    *Tumbleweed*


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    markodaly wrote: »
    So how would it happen?

    It certainly wouldn't happen overnight and it certainly wouldn't be the sole responsibility of Dublin.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 68,838 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    markodaly wrote: »
    So how would it happen?

    *Tumbleweed*

    I know Cycle would never answer this question and would deflect for Ireland, maybe you could.

    We know all sides did some awful things, the state being the responsible party - probably did the worst, in terms of what their duty and responsibility was.

    In light of that, why are you so desperate for the 'British to have 'won'?


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    markodaly wrote: »
    Last sting of a dying wasp I think. They knew the game was up. They had more members in jail or acting as agents for the British than actually engaging in their little war.

    Omagh ended it all and 9/11 sealed the deal if any of them wanted to resurrect the old ideas of the struggle.

    To repeat, the PIRA did not get their prime objective, the British did. By those terms they lost. As Peter Taylor put it in 2014, the Union is secure and part of Britain and the IRA is no more. Therefore the Unionists won. He also left it open that a UI is a possibility as no one can see the future.

    Mark, I assume you took my advice and brushed up on your knowledge ref the conflict in the north, because the last last time I seen you partake in a troubles related thread, you were quite certain that the DUP "had no links to paramilitaries" - what a shattering that delusion suffered.

    I'll give you a B for the effort , but D for what you learnt.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    Here another one for Marko and the readers of the thread:

    The DUP's Peter Robinson refusing to condemn the UDA and UVF and in fact describing them as 'counter-terrorists' despite their record of murdering almost exclusively innocent Catholics.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 418 ✭✭cycle4fun


    Hi Francie, nobody is "desperate" for the 'British to have 'won', it is just a fact that the paramilitaries had to have their weapons and explosives put beyond use, and are no more. The PIRA wanted a United Ireland, is if no closer than the day in the early seventies when the government held a referendum in N. Ireland asking people did they wish to remain part of the UK or not. Everyone was entitled to vote: Catholic, Protestant, Agnostic, Jew, whoever. The Armed struggle failed in its objective of a "United Ireland." People who wanted peace, like the British and most Irish people, won. But many paid a huge price, thousands dead, economy destroyed by bombings etc and tens of thousands injured.


  • Registered Users Posts: 518 ✭✭✭kingbhome


    I always said they would probably go after Adams as soon as he retired. I'd imagine this is the first shots across the bow.
    Just what is needed in northern Ireland now.

    .



    Do you think Adams wont expect this. He'll have a few lbs of semtex hide away ready for a wee scare if they do. That man aint daft and will have something to protect him.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 518 ✭✭✭kingbhome


    markodaly wrote: »

    The IRA are no more, therefore technically they won that goal.







    That aint 100% true. The leadership hasnt disbanded. There is that possibilty that they can start all over again and dont believe that all them weapons where disbanded.


  • Registered Users Posts: 518 ✭✭✭kingbhome


    cycle4fun wrote: »

    Hi Francie, nobody is "desperate" for the 'British to have 'won', it is just a fact that the paramilitaries had to have their weapons and explosives put beyond use, and are no more.

    .


    do you really believe this!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 418 ✭✭cycle4fun


    The dissidents may have got their hands on a small amount, but if you remember, at the decommissioning it was reported "IRA members present at the decommissioning admitted that all their weapons had been put beyond use. "This time when we said to them, 'Is this everything?' they said: 'Yes.'"

    A statement released by the IRA read: "The leadership of Oglaigh na h-Eireann announced on July 28 that we had authorised our representative to engage with the IICD to complete the process to verifiably put arms beyond use.

    "The IRA leadership can now confirm that the process of putting our arms verifiably beyond use has been completed."

    Martin McGuinness, the Sinn Féin chief negotiator, said earlier that the announcement would "bring the final chapter on the issue" of the IRA's weapons.


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,838 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    cycle4fun wrote: »
    The dissidents may have got their hands on a small amount, but if you remember, at the decommissioning it was reported "IRA members present at the decommissioning admitted that all their weapons had been put beyond use. "This time when we said to them, 'Is this everything?' they said: 'Yes.'"

    A statement released by the IRA read: "The leadership of Oglaigh na h-Eireann announced on July 28 that we had authorised our representative to engage with the IICD to complete the process to verifiably put arms beyond use.

    "The IRA leadership can now confirm that the process of putting our arms verifiably beyond use has been completed."

    Martin McGuinness, the Sinn Féin chief negotiator, said earlier that the announcement would "bring the final chapter on the issue" of the IRA's weapons.

    What is your point on this?

    Decommissioning was just a sop. Like the secured border was just a sop to Unionists. Neither really meant that much.
    The IRA achieved an agreement and honoured it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 518 ✭✭✭kingbhome


    cycle4fun wrote: »
    The dissidents may have got their hands on a small amount, but if you remember, at the decommissioning it was reported "IRA members present at the decommissioning admitted that all their weapons had been put beyond use. "This time when we said to them, 'Is this everything?' they said: 'Yes.'"

    A statement released by the IRA read: "The leadership of Oglaigh na h-Eireann announced on July 28 that we had authorised our representative to engage with the IICD to complete the process to verifiably put arms beyond use.

    "The IRA leadership can now confirm that the process of putting our arms verifiably beyond use has been completed."

    Martin McGuinness, the Sinn Féin chief negotiator, said earlier that the announcement would "bring the final chapter on the issue" of the IRA's weapons.




    Do you really believe them thou lol. This is from people who committed murder and where one of the best guerrilla groups world wide. And from Gerry who was never a member of the IRA. Do you honestly believe that the IRA put ALL their weapons beyond use. Me, not a chance in hell they did. they where negotiating with the might of the british empire, they are corrupt as anyting that has ever walked this earth. I know us irish are daft, but we arent that daft to put them arms beyond use.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 418 ✭✭cycle4fun


    kingbhome wrote: »
    Do you really believe them thou.

    Well, they said they did, and according to all sources, they did. It appears all the government sources, sources from within the movements and intelligence agencies came to the same conclusion.

    Even Francie says
    The IRA achieved an agreement and honoured it.

    There were John de Chastelain and other witnesses to the decommissioning / destroying / putting of arms and explosives beyond use.


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,838 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    cycle4fun wrote: »
    Well, they said they did, and according to all sources, they did. It appears all the government sources, sources from within the movements and intelligence agencies came to the same conclusion.

    Even Francie says

    There were John de Chastelain and other witnesses to the decommissioning / destroying / putting of arms and explosives beyond use.

    And we still don't know what your point is. Have you decommissioned it?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 418 ✭✭cycle4fun


    And we still don't know what your point is.
    I was answering kingbohme who asked "Do you really believe them"


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,665 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Red_Wake wrote: »
    In what sense is there no peace?

    the simple fact that voters are now either one extreme or another. Plus when was the last time you went for a walk around a northern town at night? last time I was home the place was more dangerous that it was during the 80s. then you have the looming brexit, its hard border and the fact that the dissidents are better equipped and organised now than ever before. When it all kicks off again, I'll refer you to your post above.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 418 ✭✭cycle4fun


    maccored wrote: »
    the simple fact that voters are now either one extreme or another. Plus when was the last time you went for a walk around a northern town at night? last time I was home the place was more dangerous that it was during the 80s. then you have the looming brexit, its hard border and the fact that the dissidents are better equipped and organised now than ever before. When it all kicks off again, I'll refer you to your post above.

    Definitely no United Ireland in our lifetime so, we would be mad to try to take on a place like that.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 518 ✭✭✭kingbhome


    cycle4fun wrote: »
    Well, they said they did, and according to all sources, they did. It appears all the government sources, sources from within the movements and intelligence agencies came to the same conclusion.

    Even Francie says

    There were John de Chastelain and other witnesses to the decommissioning / destroying / putting of arms and explosives beyond use.

    I know they said they did but this is a bunch of people who wouldnt be classed as honourable when asked for the truth. Sure ask gery was he ever in the IRA should be enough to know they arent always telling the truth. I wouldnt blame them for holding onto some of them thou just as a wee warning here and there. Sure wasnt a small piece of semtex found in a car in andytown when adams was lifted for the mcconville murder. Not much was made of it at the time but to me, that was a wee warning, they semtex is still there so dont **** with us statement. There is also game of chess behind the scenes we dont know off getting played.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,103 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    markodaly wrote: »
    ........................ I did not use the word 'beaten', nor did I use the words 'fatally compromised'.................

    So what is it you're saying exactly, just so we're clear?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 418 ✭✭cycle4fun


    kingbhome wrote: »
    I know they said they did but this is a bunch of people who wouldnt be classed as honourable when asked for the truth.

    That is why we relied on the word of John de Chastelain and witnesses like the clergy from both sides. I would be extremely surprised if M15/MI6 did not keep an eye on things too. Plus the informers were another source.


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,838 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    cycle4fun wrote: »
    Definitely no United Ireland in our lifetime so, we would be mad to try to take on a place like that.

    I have no doubt you would hate to see a UI for fear it might upset a Brit or two but are you just introducing these topics to convince yourself of something?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 418 ✭✭cycle4fun


    I have no doubt you would hate to see a UI for fear it might upset a Brit or two
    A "Brit or two" gets upset over something every second of the day, no skin off my nose, I could not care less. The point I made was because N.Ireland is so polarised, with extremists on both sides, as well as being such a basket case financially, our little country here with only a few million taxpayers would be mad to take it over.

    but are you just introducing these topics to convince yourself of something?
    I did not introduce the topic, the OP did.


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,838 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    cycle4fun wrote: »
    A "Brit or two" gets upset over something every second of the day, no skin off my nose, I could not care less. The point I made was because N.Ireland is so polarised, with extremists on both sides, as well as being such a basket case financially, our little country here with only a few million taxpayers would be mad to take it over.



    I did not introduce the topic, the OP did.

    Nobody will be 'taking over' anywhere. The British did that and look what happened.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 418 ✭✭cycle4fun


    Nobody will be 'taking over' anywhere. The British did that and look what happened.

    And in the last referendum there, in the early seventies, and everyone was entitled to vote, 99% of the population wanted to stay part of the UK / united with Britain. Even though turnout was the same approx as we get in elections and referendums here, there was a nationalist boycott. Gerry Fitt, leader of the SDLP, said he had organised a boycott of the vote to stop an escalation in violence...and where did the violence come from? Quote "The civil authorities were prepared for violence on polling day. They had put in place mobile polling stations which could be rushed into use if there was bomb damage to scheduled poll buildings.[3] Two days before the referendum a British soldier, Guardsman Anton Brown of the 2nd Battalion, Coldstream Guards was shot dead in Belfast as the army searched for weapons and explosives which could be used to disrupt the upcoming referendum.[3]

    In response to the referendum, the Provisional Irish Republican Army planted four car bombs in London that day, two of which went off, causing one death and injuring 200"


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,838 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    cycle4fun wrote: »
    And in the last referendum there, in the early seventies, and everyone was entitled to vote, 99% of the population wanted to stay part of the UK / united with Britain. Even though turnout was the same approx as we get in elections and referendums here, there was a nationalist boycott. Gerry Fitt, leader of the SDLP, said he had organised a boycott of the vote to stop an escalation in violence...and where did the violence come from? Quote "The civil authorities were prepared for violence on polling day. They had put in place mobile polling stations which could be rushed into use if there was bomb damage to scheduled poll buildings.[3] Two days before the referendum a British soldier, Guardsman Anton Brown of the 2nd Battalion, Coldstream Guards was shot dead in Belfast as the army searched for weapons and explosives which could be used to disrupt the upcoming referendum.[3]

    In response to the referendum, the Provisional Irish Republican Army planted four car bombs in London that day, two of which went off, causing one death and injuring 200"

    The 'referendum' you, in a minority of one, think was significant. :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 418 ✭✭cycle4fun


    The 'referendum' you, in a minority of one, think was significant. :rolleyes:

    When the majority of the people in N.Ireland voted in it, and the vote was a slap in the face for your paramilitaries idols who were murdering people on an almost weekly basis ( not unlike the 7th of July 2005 bombing in London ), yes, it is significant you ignore it. Pity they did not embrace the ballot box then in 1973, as was open to them, instead of waiting a few decades and a lot of lives would have been saved.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,551 ✭✭✭✭markodaly




    Shows how both the British Intelligence agencies and the leadership of the IRA/Sinn Fein are both complicit in this issue.


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