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Tramps fighting in Waterford

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,879 ✭✭✭BBM77


    Road-Hog wrote: »
    I would think this sort of behavior is common place in most urban areas....people on here are trying to suggest that it is waterford specific incident only....??

    It is common in all urban areas unfortunately. You’d have to have serious negative outlook issues or live a in shed like Brie Larson in Room to be so blind to the world outside to think this kind of thing only happens in Waterford. If you search YouTube for street fights in any of the other cities you get the same kind of thing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 401 ✭✭soiseztomabel


    Theres a massive difference between being brought up and being dragged up, these fools are the personification of what happens when certain behaviour is normalized. The fact that this kind of stuff is happening in broad daylight and witnessed by a a spectrum of decent people both young and old is disgraceful. Sad thing about it is if they were picked up and changed it'd be the same old excuses.

    They had a hard life, issues with substance, family dynamic skewed blah blah, not one bit of sympathy for anybody who fights on the street or acts this way. Unfortunately, being a scauldy tramp wont get you much more than an afternoon in the cell (if even) to which then leads to a release and abit of jeering for being plastered all over the interwebs.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 28,128 ✭✭✭✭Mossy Monk


    We need more Gardaí on the streets. That will cut this bollocks down immediately. Nowadays I regularly go a whole day without seeing one walking the beat. It would seem traffic fines are more important.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,383 ✭✭✭✭greenspurs


    Anyone argue with my original point about sterilising these scumbags ??

    "Bright lights and Thunder .................... " #NoPopcorn



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,343 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Theres a massive difference between being brought up and being dragged up, these fools are the personification of what happens when certain behaviour is normalized. The fact that this kind of stuff is happening in broad daylight and witnessed by a a spectrum of decent people both young and old is disgraceful. Sad thing about it is if they were picked up and changed it'd be the same old excuses.

    They had a hard life, issues with substance, family dynamic skewed blah blah, not one bit of sympathy for anybody who fights on the street or acts this way. Unfortunately, being a scauldy tramp wont get you much more than an afternoon in the cell (if even) to which then leads to a release and abit of jeering for being plastered all over the interwebs.

    does our current judicial system and approach of dealing with crime and criminal activities actually work, methods such as incarceration, or it it just another form of 'out of sight, out of mind'?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,427 ✭✭✭mooseknunkle


    Mossy Monk wrote: »
    We need more Gardaí on the streets. That will cut this bollocks down immediately. Nowadays I regularly go a whole day without seeing one walking the beat. It would seem traffic fines are more important.

    They were talking about this on the radio yesterday and those three were arrested at the scene


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,383 ✭✭✭✭greenspurs


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    does our current judicial system and approach of dealing with crime and criminal activities actually work, methods such as incarceration, or it it just another form of 'out of sight, out of mind'?

    It might work, but theres not enough of these degenerates being put away!
    €20mill spent on the court house refurb , and yet there is still the same limited space for the criminal element to be put if they are convicted in any of the 6 shiny new courtrooms.

    "Bright lights and Thunder .................... " #NoPopcorn



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,343 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    greenspurs wrote: »
    It might work, but theres not enough of these degenerates being put away!
    €20mill spent on the court house refurb , and yet there is still the same limited space for the criminal element to be put if they are convicted in any of the 6 shiny new courtrooms.

    is there actually any evidence to support this statement? our current rehabilitation rates of inmates is roughly 40%, i.e roughly 60% of inmates will engage in criminal activities after release, thats the sign of deep systemic failure, i.e. theres no conclusive evidence to support, incarceration resolves our criminal activities, and i have reason to believe, it in fact, in some cases, exasperates them


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,383 ✭✭✭✭greenspurs


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    is there actually any evidence to support this statement? our current rehabilitation rates of inmates is roughly 40%, i.e roughly 60% of inmates will engage in criminal activities after release, thats the sign of deep systemic failure, i.e. theres no conclusive evidence to support, incarceration resolves our criminal activities, and i have reason to believe, it in fact, in some cases, exasperates them

    But since when did being placed in prison mean having to be rehabilitated ?
    It was supposed to be a deterent ? If you commit a crime, we will put you in a prison cell for years, and deprive you of your liberty.

    Its only since the 'Do-Gooders' decided that those imprisoned should be helped/educated/rehabilitated that this has become the 'ultimate issue' , but if you get 5/10/20 years in prison, and then are released , and go back to reoffending, well then I think, that person is beyond help if their previous time in prison didn't put them off breaking the law again!.

    I know socio-economic issues are a factor, but those that want to be a criminal will be, regardless.

    "Bright lights and Thunder .................... " #NoPopcorn



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    greenspurs wrote: »
    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    is there actually any evidence to support this statement? our current rehabilitation rates of inmates is roughly 40%, i.e roughly 60% of inmates will engage in criminal activities after release, thats the sign of deep systemic failure, i.e. theres no conclusive evidence to support, incarceration resolves our criminal activities, and i have reason to believe, it in fact, in some cases, exasperates them

    If your figures are correct it clearly does work. 40% improvement rate is a result by any standard. But as was said, there is no reason to believe 'rehabilitation' way to judge it. As a principle wrongsoing should be punished.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 29,343 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    greenspurs wrote: »
    But since when did being placed in prison mean having to be rehabilitated ?
    It was supposed to be a deterent ? If you commit a crime, we will put you in a prison cell for years, and deprive you of your liberty.

    Its only since the 'Do-Gooders' decided that those imprisoned should be helped/educated/rehabilitated that this has become the 'ultimate issue' , but if you get 5/10/20 years in prison, and then are released , and go back to reoffending, well then I think, that person is beyond help if their previous time in prison didn't put them off breaking the law again!.

    I know socio-economic issues are a factor, but those that want to be a criminal will be, regardless.

    ive met many criminals throughout my life, and continue to do so, conversations with them and with those that have and continue to work with them are interesting to say the least.

    the root causes of criminality are extremely complex, to the point, we dont actually truly understand them, but there has been astonishing research done over the last few decades, but unfortunately our social systems and institutions are extremely slow to adopt these findings. you will find, a large proportion of criminals will suffer with complex issues that cause behavior such as involuntary negative outcomes, i.e. they conduct in behavior that they dont necessarily have total control over, this would be common in complex behavioral problems such as autism, adhd comes to mind, but there are others. ive also been recently informed, and this is from peer reviewed research, some individuals show no response to incarceration, and i suspect, some in fact show a net negative response. so therefore, incarceration doesnt truly work in dealing with these complex social issues, and may actually be exasperating them, but failing to try understand these issues, is more likely to cause more harm than good.

    so do we just ignore those that cannot be 'rehabilitated', and lock them away, what is this person becomes you, or someone close to you?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 803 ✭✭✭BelovedAunt


    greenspurs wrote: »
    Anyone argue with my original point about sterilising these scumbags ??

    No argument here but it would be impossible to implement something like that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,383 ✭✭✭✭greenspurs


    To be honest, I would ignore them.
    Harsh maybe, but why try our hardest for those that wont/cant be bettered or rehabilitated.
    Can you save those that don't/wont want to be saved ?

    "Bright lights and Thunder .................... " #NoPopcorn



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,879 ✭✭✭BBM77


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    is there actually any evidence to support this statement? our current rehabilitation rates of inmates is roughly 40%, i.e roughly 60% of inmates will engage in criminal activities after release, thats the sign of deep systemic failure, i.e. theres no conclusive evidence to support, incarceration resolves our criminal activities, and i have reason to believe, it in fact, in some cases, exasperates them

    This is where your argument falls apart. “systemic failure” is just a worn-out buzz word that absolves the people in question of their personal responsibility. If a difficult upbringing and poor economic circumstances was the cause of this kind of behaviour more people would be doing it. Of course, there are people who have hard upbringings for various reasons who turn to drugs etc as a way to escape it. But the fact is that some people are just a waste of space and have nothing better to do with themselves than fight on the street.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    greenspurs wrote: »
    But since when did being placed in prison mean having to be rehabilitated ?
    It was supposed to be a deterent ? If you commit a crime, we will put you in a prison cell for years, and deprive you of your liberty.

    Its only since the 'Do-Gooders' decided that those imprisoned should be helped/educated/rehabilitated that this has become the 'ultimate issue' , but if you get 5/10/20 years in prison, and then are released , and go back to reoffending, well then I think, that person is beyond help if their previous time in prison didn't put them off breaking the law again!.

    I know socio-economic issues are a factor, but those that want to be a criminal will be, regardless.

    ive met many criminals throughout my life, and continue to do so, conversations with them and with those that have and continue to work with them are interesting to say the least.

    the root causes of criminality are extremely complex, to the point, we dont actually truly understand them, but there has been astonishing research done over the last few decades, but unfortunately our social systems and institutions are extremely slow to adopt these findings. you will find, a large proportion of criminals will suffer with complex issues that cause behavior such as involuntary negative outcomes, i.e. they conduct in behavior that they dont necessarily have total control over, this would be common in complex behavioral problems such as autism, adhd comes to mind, but there are others. ive also been recently informed, and this is from peer reviewed research, some individuals show no response to incarceration, and i suspect, some in fact show a net negative response. so therefore, incarceration doesnt truly work in dealing with these complex social issues, and may actually be exasperating them, but failing to try understand these issues, is more likely to cause more harm than good.

    so do we just ignore those that cannot be 'rehabilitated', and lock them away, what is this person becomes you, or someone close to you?


    The problem with academic publicatiions none of which you have reffered us to is that that they have motivation outside of knowledge and understanding. I found this out from an MIT post doctorate researcher. A peer reviewed paper with your name on it is an end in itself. Plus the peer review system is incestuous in IVY league and English speaking countries in general.

    The "What if it was your friend" nonsense is part of the problem. For too long this type of excuse making only justifies bad behaviour. Does prison work? Sure it does! 99% of people have managed to avoid it including the majority of people with the comditions you describe.

    For the people who can't be rehabilitated? Should we lock them up forever? If they are violent or dangerous then yea absolutely.


  • Registered Users Posts: 29,343 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    BBM77 wrote: »
    This is where your augment falls apart. “systemic failure” is just a worn-out buzz word that absolves the people in question of their personal responsibility. If a difficult upbringing and poor economic circumstances was the cause of this kind of behaviour more people would be doing it. Of course, there are people who have hard upbringings for various reasons who turn to drugs etc as a way to escape it. But the fact is that some people are just a waste of space and have nothing better to do with themselves than fight on the street.

    disagree of course, please be aware, i have some of the most common root causes of criminality in the form of autism(asbergers and add) and dyslexia, and have struggled with mental health issues for a very large proportion of my life. all these issues are common amongst prison populations, peer reviewed supported, and actually life supported. i can vouch for 'systemic failure' in dealing with these kind of issues, and i suspect others that have similar issues, or maybe parents that have kids with these kinds of issues, would probably also confirm. seriously, talk to people that struggle with things such as 'impulsive behavioral issues', common in various forms of autism, and mental health issues such as bipolar and borderline disorders etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    BBM77 wrote: »
    This is where your augment falls apart. “systemic failure” is just a worn-out buzz word that absolves the people in question of their personal responsibility. If a difficult upbringing and poor economic circumstances was the cause of this kind of behaviour more people would be doing it. Of course, there are people who have hard upbringings for various reasons who turn to drugs etc as a way to escape it. But the fact is that some people are just a waste of space and have nothing better to do with themselves than fight on the street.

    disagree of course, please be aware, i have some of the most common root causes of criminality in the form of autism(asbergers and add) and dyslexia, and have struggled with mental health issues for a very large proportion of my life. all these issues are common amongst prison populations, peer reviewed supported, and actually life supported. i can vouch for 'systemic failure' in dealing with these kind of issues, and i suspect others that have similar issues, or maybe parents that have kids with these kinds of issues, would probably also confirm. seriously, talk to people that struggle with things such as 'impulsive behavioral issues', common in various forms of autism, and mental health issues such as bipolar and borderline disorders etc.

    Some of these disorders, there is a case to be made that sufferers should not be allowed mix with the general population. BPD for example.


  • Registered Users Posts: 29,343 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Some of these disorders, there is a case to be made that sufferers should not be allowed mix with the general population. BPD for example.

    so they should be segregated and somewhat excluded from society?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,383 ✭✭✭✭greenspurs


    Fair enough points, but I don't think that :
    "i suspect other" or "maybe" or Probably also confirm" isnt evidence/proof/excusing/reason for such behaviour in the criminals/scumbags.
    I don't think there are stats/figures for the common cause of criminality. There are common points of reference , yes, such as family involvement, peers, drugs , money.

    You are a scumbag or you are made one , or else you are a law abiding citizen. Simple.

    "Bright lights and Thunder .................... " #NoPopcorn



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,343 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    greenspurs wrote: »
    Fair enough points, but I don't think that :
    "i suspect other" or "maybe" or Probably also confirm" isnt evidence/proof/excusing/reason for such behaviour in the criminals/scumbags.
    I don't think there are stats/figures for the common cause of criminality. There are common points of reference , yes, such as family involvement, peers, drugs , money.

    You are a scumbag or you are made one , or else you are a law abiding citizen. Simple.

    are your or my opinions not valid in society? i would truly recommend talking to those that have i have suggested, this isnt as clear cut as some would make it out to be, im sure its even more complicated than i believe it to be. its also important to note, some laws are not actually there to truly benefit all in society, but only certain minorities, bill blacks work comes to mind here, but thats another matter.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Some of these disorders, there is a case to be made that sufferers should not be allowed mix with the general population. BPD for example.

    so they should be segregated and somewhat excluded from society?

    Yes I think so! I have met people like this. They are extremely dangerous.


  • Registered Users Posts: 29,343 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Yes I think so! I have met people like this. They are extremely dangerous.

    i both agree and disagree, ive worked with people with these kinds of issues, they are some of the most genuine people ive ever met, would go out of their way to help and try do the right thing, they most certainly were not extremely dangerous


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    so they should be segregated and somewhat excluded from society?

    Wanderer some people suffering from mental disorders are very dangerous albeit outside of their own control.
    We should be able to expect to be free to go around about our business without fear of being harmed by someone who really needs full time professional medical care.


  • Registered Users Posts: 29,343 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Wanderer some people suffering from mental disorders are very dangerous albeit outside of their own control.
    We should be able to expect to be free to go around about our business without fear of being harmed by someone who really needs full time professional medical care.

    oh i do agree, all citizens must be safe, from themselves and from the action of others, but are we approaching these issues in the right way?


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    oh i do agree, all citizens must be safe, from themselves and from the action of others, but are we approaching these issues in the right way?

    We have a limited pot of money with which to pay for all public services. Over the last 30 years a lot of money has been spent on “care in the community” projects where people with moderate to severe mental health issues and addiction issues are no longer incarcerated in long term institutions.
    Basically, it’s not working out.
    Ill people need care and structure and proper support.
    The idea of living independently while attending mental health outpatients and drop in centers on a voluntary basis is wonderful but in reality it has been a failure.
    Most of the violent crime carried out in this country is by people who simply shouldn’t be walking the streets.
    What do you think is the solution wanderer?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Yes I think so! I have met people like this. They are extremely dangerous.

    i both agree and disagree, ive worked with people with these kinds of issues, they are some of the most genuine people ive ever met, would go out of their way to help and try do the right thing, they most certainly were not extremely dangerous

    Nobody said they were all dangerous. The term "some of them". Did you pick that up in a "peer reviewed" journal? By the way, people were saying the same thing about Ted Bundy! I think you should read a few more "peer reviewed" publications especially about pyschopathy.  This type of positive behaviour is often used as a  mask by people like this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Are your or my opinions not valid in society? i would truly recommend talking to those that have I have suggested, this isnt as clear cut as some would make it out to be, I'm sure its even more complicated than I believe it to be. Its also important to note, some laws are not actually there to truly benefit all in society, but only certain minorities, Bill Blacks work comes to mind here, but thats another matter.

    This is a very interesting thread for sure.

    Your point about the validity of Law is challenging in itself.

    Are you in favour of abandoning our current concept of "Law" ?

    If so,can you suggest a replacement,or do you favour abandoning such restrictive,repressive practices in total,due to the requirement to enforce them ?

    You mention some Laws,as not being of benefit to "all in society,but only certain minorities".

    Would you include such legislation as the Equal Status Acts 2000-2015 or the reworkings of other,similar legislation to specifically include "certain minorities" to the exclusion of the remainder of general society ?

    Are you happy that such "certain minorities" recieve this added focus,at the expense of resourcing the protection of the "General" population,particularly those who have avoided becoming lawbreakers and even avoided becoming Prisoners (even as adults who have lived with Aspbergers and recieved no special supports or recognition) ?

    There is a point,past which,organized general society cannot go in supporting and/or facilitating those who see that very society as problematic and contributing to their (often many) societal issues.

    There are many areas in our Country,where the people who are working and paying a grossly disproportionate amount of their Income,towards keeping these "supportive schemes" in operation,then find themselves cast adrift without any support,when those who are being supported decide to lash out,often repeatedly and violently.

    You are correct,in that the issues are not clear cut,however,that lack-of-clarity is often somewhat contrived,and tends to benefit the "certain monorities" ahead of the silent majority,who's job is to keep working and paying the taxes to pay for the beer'n crisps of the remainder ?


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,577 ✭✭✭Boooourns


    They should set up a little pop-up style station in the middle of town like you see in other European cities. Just needs to be man'd by a couple of Gardai during the day.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,810 ✭✭✭dzilla


    Boooourns wrote: »
    They should set up a little pop-up style station in the middle of town like you see in other European cities. Just needs to be man'd by a couple of Gardai during the day.

    Wouldn't even need to be as fancy as a pop up station. A paddy wagon with a desk would suffice. Something like community policing for that area. Needs to be done because there's no point in doing all the nice work in the city with the Viking piece, Waterford walls and the greenway if all that image work is spoiled by a couple of the local mensa brigade scrapping in town


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,879 ✭✭✭BBM77


    dzilla wrote: »
    Wouldn't even need to be as fancy as a pop up station. A paddy wagon with a desk would suffice. Something like community policing for that area. Needs to be done because there's no point in doing all the nice work in the city with the Viking piece, Waterford walls and the greenway if all that image work is spoiled by a couple of the local mensa brigade scrapping in town

    As always seems to be the case the problems Waterford has to deal with has its root cause in not getting our fair share from government. I was listening to a member of the Waterford policing commission, not sure if that is its correct title. But he was saying that Waterford has 20% less Garda’s than the rest for the country. With these reduced numbers and other duties this apparently often leaves as little as three Garda’s to police the entire city with a population of over 53000!


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