Standard education produces standard adults.

In the wind

So the conventional educational system in most developed countries relies on teaching book knowledge which is measured through standard tests as a means to determine suitability for the next level in the conventional system including the workplace.

In this day and age when the knowledge and tools are immediately available to the population this approach is outmoded and inappropriate. With this in mind we are exploring educational options in Ireland that a more focused on problem solving, critical thinking and humanity, arts, in other words what can't currently be addressed by an available tool.

I read a little about Sudbury and Steiner schools but I'm looking to start a discussion and perhaps inventory all the options open across the Island of Ireland which I will share here.

To start off the discussion I reckon the above position about standard schools producing cookie cutter adults (like me)
Is simply broken. I'd love to hear thoughts and arguments for both sides of any such discussion.

Thanks for your thoughts and first hand experiences...

lazygal

What's a standard adult? I don't think I've ever met one.

kandr10

lazygal wrote: »

What's a standard adult? I don't think I've ever met one.

I was going to ask the same thing! The op is full of very broad sweeping generalizations.

endacl

First child on the way, OP?

shesty

The world is kinda standard though.
Bell curve n all that.

One eyed Jack

In the wind wrote: »

So the conventional educational system in most developed countries relies on teaching book knowledge which is measured through standard tests as a means to determine suitability for the next level in the conventional system including the workplace.

In this day and age when the knowledge and tools are immediately available to the population this approach is outmoded and inappropriate. With this in mind we are exploring educational options in Ireland that a more focused on problem solving, critical thinking and humanity, arts, in other words what can't currently be addressed by an available tool.

Obviously this approach is neither outmoded nor inappropriate if the point is to educate children to function as adults in society. It's still the most popular form of education in developed countries because it is appropriate for it's intended purpose.

I read a little about Sudbury and Steiner schools but I'm looking to start a discussion and perhaps inventory all the options open across the Island of Ireland which I will share here.

To start off the discussion I reckon the above position about standard schools producing cookie cutter adults (like me)
Is simply broken. I'd love to hear thoughts and arguments for both sides of any such discussion.

Thanks for your thoughts and first hand experiences...

Standard schools do not produce cookie-cutter adults though? The very fact that you've decided to investigate the other models of education out there, and the very fact that these other models of education even exist, is surely evidence of the fact that as adults we are anything but cookie-cutter cut-outs of each other.

I think you might be arguing for a model of education which is centred around philosophy, the type of education model popular in other countries like Finland and France for example? Some people prefer that model of education, and some people loathe it. Each model of education will have it's advantages and disadvantages depending upon the outcomes that parents themselves would want for their children, and that's really what matters more than any type of formal education, is the influence of the parents in educating their own children -

Why Parenting Is More Important Than Schools

Incidentally, there are numerous other models of education available to parents in Ireland, from home schooling to unschooling (also a type of home schooling though, to be fair), and again they all have their advantages and disadvantages, depending upon the parents own approach to the type of education they want for their children to prepare them to function in society as adults.

In Irish society the education system is undergoing constant change (my own child now takes 'wellness' classes in school, personally I think it's a bizarre concept and a complete waste of time myself, but the overall education provided by the school outweighs the lack of value I just don't see in the concept), and is constantly changing to meet the demands of modern society, and over time I have seen significant changes in our education system, where children who are exceptional can and absolutely flourish, on their own merits.

If you imagine yourself to be cookie-cutter cut-out because of what you perceive to be a 'broken' and inappropriate education system, then you must also acknowledge the fact that there are other factors besides the education system influencing adults who are not cookie cutter cut-outs already functioning and flourishing in Irish society.

kandr10

Just to address the point on knowledge essentially being at our fingertips: this doesn’t eliminate the need to learn in school. At school, it’s more about teaching the strategies to learn, eg reading and comprehension strategies, problem solving strategies, strategies to enable analyzing and critiquing the information you are presented with. (Granted, problem solving tends to lag behind somewhat in a jammed curriculum). Not all children or adults are able to read, understand, interpret, apply, question what’s put in front of them. Without learning those skills, it’s no use having a wealth of knowledge at your fingertips. My point, to summarise, is that the focus is on the skills involved rather than the information retained per se.

In the wind

Fair enough opening response. When I write about a standard adult I suppose I am talking about a child that has gone through mainstream education all his life, primary school, secondary entrance exam, inter cert or whatever it is called now, transition year, leaving cert, 3rd level, work experience.  

My standard reference is extends beyond education but I'm trying to focus on the educational aspects in this thread.

When I look at lets call it mainstream education I see a huge volume of booklearning about historical, geographical, language, scientific, technical, mathematical facts or methods that are taught (at least in my mind) with the intent that the student can [1] recall these nuggets at will during his life and apply them  & [2] be used as a measure of the students ability to ingest, retain & recall the same facts at will.

Is this a good approach in a day when any or all of the above fact based recall measured learning is available in our pockets?

In the wind

endacl wrote: »

First child on the way, OP?

nope :)

In the wind

shesty wrote: »

The world is kinda standard though.
Bell curve n all that.

OK, I can't argue with that because I don't know enough.

kandr10

In the wind wrote: »

Fair enough opening response. When I write about a standard adult I suppose I am talking about a child that has gone through mainstream education all his life, primary school, secondary entrance exam, inter cert or whatever it is called now, transition year, leaving cert, 3rd level, work experience.  

My standard reference is extends beyond education but I'm trying to focus on the educational aspects in this thread.

When I look at lets call it mainstream education I see a huge volume of booklearning about historical, geographical, language, scientific, technical, mathematical facts or methods that are taught (at least in my mind) with the intent that the student can [1] recall these nuggets at will during his life and apply them  & [2] be used as a measure of the students ability to ingest, retain & recall the same facts at will.

Is this a good approach in a day when any or all of the above fact based recall measured learning is available in our pockets?

You’re wrong. The primary school curriculum is not centered around learning nuggets of information and being able to recall them. It’s centered on the skills required to learn those nuggets. See post above. Fair enough, maths might present some exceptions since it’s necessary to learn things like times tables by rote, but that ultimately speeds up problem solving later on. Standardized tests that are administered are not based on recall (alone).

In what you have described as a ‘standard adult’, what’s wrong with that? By your own admission, you’re focusing on education so are therefore eliminating the many people who don’t follow the path outlined by you. You don’t include people who live very different lives because of their means/geographical location/ etc. surely there can be no such thing as a standard when so many people living different kinds of lives exist?

One eyed Jack

In the wind wrote: »

Is this a good approach in a day when any or all of the above fact based recall measured learning is available in our pockets?

The Pat Kenny approach to education -

He continued: "It has to be redesigned for the 21st Century. We don't need to know a lot of this stuff now, we have Google.

And how do you imagine it is put there for you to access using a device in your pocket that took years of development and innovation by scientists, mathematicians, engineers...

eviltwin

I always believe school should teach our children and all the other stuff should come from home and other sources.

Moonbeam

I have children whom are not average,my preferred method of education would be Montessori through irish but it was not an option but I also feel that as parents we teach them as individuals.

In the wind

@ One Eyed Jack
One eyed Jack;105978577
In the wind;105975707So the conventional  educational system in most developed countries relies on teaching book knowledge which is measured through standard tests as a means to determine suitability for the next level in the conventional system including the workplace.

In this day and age when the knowledge and tools are immediately available to the population this approach is outmoded and inappropriate. With this in mind we are exploring educational options in Ireland that a more focused on problem solving, critical thinking and humanity, arts, in other words what can't currently be addressed by an available tool.


Obviously this approach is neither outmoded nor inappropriate if the point is to educate children to function as adults in society. It's still the most popular form of education in developed countries because it is appropriate for it's intended purpose.

Great point, One Eyed Jack. Is the point of "Mainstream education" to create functional adults in society? I'm not entirely sure.

When I look at the standardized & competitive approach to "Mainstream education" I see a system that promotes those that can memorize & recall best, undervalues those that don't have the same ability to recall & then pursues their improvement in these areas without seeking to find their naturally occurring ability & leverage that toward making him a functioning, contributing adult.



I read a little about Sudbury and Steiner schools  but I'm looking to  start a discussion and perhaps inventory all the options open across the Island of Ireland which I will share here.

To start off the discussion I reckon the above position about standard schools producing cookie cutter adults (like me)
Is simply broken. I'd love to hear thoughts and arguments for both sides of any such discussion.

Thanks for your thoughts and first hand experiences...



Standard schools do not produce cookie-cutter adults though? The very fact that you've decided to investigate the other models of education out there, and the very fact that these other models of education even exist, is surely evidence of the fact that as adults we are anything but cookie-cutter cut-outs of each other. Yes, but these differentiators are in the vast minorityy. I wouldn't argue that all adults are cookie cut as your point does shine light on some who create alternate paths across society.

I think you might be arguing for a model of education which is centred around philosophy, the type of education model popular in other countries like Finland and France for example? Some people prefer that model of education, and some people loathe it. Each model of education will have it's advantages and disadvantages depending upon the outcomes that parents themselves would want for their children, and that's really what matters more than any type of formal education, is the influence of the parents in educating their own children -

Why Parenting Is More Important Than Schools

Incidentally, there are numerous other models of education available to parents in Ireland, from home schooling to unschooling (also a type of home schooling though, to be fair), and again they all have their advantages and disadvantages, depending upon the parents own approach to the type of education they want for their children to prepare them to function in society as adults. 

In Irish society the education system is undergoing constant change (my own child now takes 'wellness' classes in school, personally I think it's a bizarre concept and a complete waste of time myself, but the overall education provided by the school outweighs the lack of value I just don't see in the concept), and is constantly changing to meet the demands of modern society, and over time I have seen significant changes in our education system, where children who are exceptional can and absolutely flourish, on their own merits. Wellness, watch this space & other disciplines of the mind, these are the very areas that may become important in future society as the population is freed up from a lot of current task/process oriented employment & find themselves with a ton of free time on their hands. This ties back in with my opening post in the sense that tools & machines/computers will take a lot of the jobs in the future but cannot yet cater to some of the softer skills that a human can cater to. At least the machines can't do it yet.

If you imagine yourself to be cookie-cutter cut-out because of what you perceive to be a 'broken' and inappropriate education system, then you must also acknowledge the fact that there are other factors besides the education system influencing adults who are not cookie cutter cut-outs already functioning and flourishing in Irish society. I don't see this as an Irish issue as such I just am looking for alternatives in Ireland. Certainly there are other factors, no doubt however as we spend so all our formative years in an education systems that forces it's version of what's best onto us (measured ability for fact retention & recall) I got to wonder would we not serve society better if delivered education through differentiation rather than assimilation & catering to building natural ability rather than forcing all & sundry to put their effort into the retention & recall components. 

Mardy Bum

Knowledge is absolutely vital and anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to make you ignorant.

You cannot think critically without huge knowledge of a subject. Critical thinking doesn't happen of its own accord.

In the wind

@ Kandr

You’re wrong. The primary school curriculum is not centered around learning nuggets of information and being able to recall them. It’s centered on the skills required to learn those nuggets. See post above. Fair enough, maths might present some exceptions since it’s necessary to learn things like times tables by rote, but that ultimately speeds up problem solving later on. Standardized tests that are administered are not based on recall (alone). 

OK, so it's not centered solely on this but as far as i understand it, it does form a large part of it. Regarding the skills required to learn those nuggets I return to the point that this creates a standard corridor of learning (lets say Geography, History (integrity of which is sketchy at best), Sciences, Languages & Maths) that the all children are sent down & if they don't have an appropriate level of success then more resources &/or pressure is applied to continue to channel them down that learning corridor in stead of stepping back looking at the child's interests & natural abilities & nurturing those.

In what you have described as a ‘standard adult’, what’s wrong with that? By your own admission, you’re focusing on education so are therefore eliminating the many people who don’t follow the path outlined by you. You don’t include people who live very different lives because of their means/geographical location/ etc. surely there can be no such thing as a standard when so many people living different kinds of lives exist?
I think we're kind of on the same page. there is nothing wrong with Standard Adults, I'm one by my own definition & I'm doing fine however the if I look back at how I was educated & how my children are being educated it has a feeling of making all the pegs (Students) fit into a square hole no matter their shape or size. So imagine if all the children were encouraged to follow & grow their passions & abilities as the standard educational approach.

In the wind

kandr10 wrote: »

Just to address the point on knowledge essentially being at our fingertips: this doesn’t eliminate the need to learn in school. At school, it’s more about teaching the strategies to learn, eg reading and comprehension strategies, problem solving strategies, strategies to enable analyzing and critiquing the information you are presented with. (Granted, problem solving tends to lag behind somewhat in a jammed curriculum). Not all children or adults are able to read, understand, interpret, apply, question what’s put in front of them. Without learning those skills, it’s no use having a wealth of knowledge at your fingertips. My point, to summarise, is that the focus is on the skills involved rather than the information retained per se.

OK, so these are the kind of skills I reckon should be emphasized and learned/taught through the area of interest/ability of the student. If these are what is being taught I don't think these are what are being used to measure ability as the tests as far as I can tell fall back on retention & recall in many cases.

In the wind

Moonbeam wrote: »

I have children which are not average,my preferred method of education would be Montessori through irish but it was not an option but I also feel that as parents we teach them as individuals.

What made you select/lean towards Montessori if you wouldn't mind sharing?

In the wind

One eyed Jack wrote: »

In the wind wrote: »

Is this a good approach in a day when any or all of the above fact based recall measured learning is available in our pockets?

The Pat Kenny approach to education -

He continued: "It has to be redesigned for the 21st Century. We don't need to know a lot of this stuff now, we have Google.

And how do you imagine it is put there for you to access using a device in your pocket that took years of development and innovation by scientists, mathematicians, engineers...

I'd imagine it was put there for the most part by Students that thrived in mainstream education - they succeeded in that environment & went on to convert it into professional success. This point addresses those that thrived in mainstream education & perhaps those that struggled in mainstream education but were sufficiently resilient to overcome their struggles. It does not address those Students that neither thrived or had sufficient resilience to succeed in that environment & were destined to never amount to anything because their strengths were not a match to the system & the strengths that they did possess were never sought out, recognized & nurtured to the point where they could have had professional success with their area or interest or ability.

In the wind

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Knowledge is absolutely vital and anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to make you ignorant.

You cannot think critically without huge knowledge of a subject. Critical thinking doesn't happen of its own accord.

Yes, I agree however if the knowledge is instantly available & we want to educate ourselves so we can make an informed opinion on a topic we just need to read up on that topic at the point in time when we decide we want to get ourselves informed & critically review both sides of an argument.
For example as a non climate expert, I can read up on climate from all sides of any argument & form my opinion on it on demand, I don't need to learn this ahead of time if I'm not interested in it or if my area of interest is in Architecture for example.

Mardy Bum

In the wind wrote: »

Yes, I agree however if the knowledge is instantly available & we want to educate ourselves so we can make an informed opinion on a topic we just need to read up on that topic at the point in time when we decide we want to get ourselves informed & critically review both sides of an argument.
For example as a non climate expert, I can read up on climate from all sides of any argument & form my opinion on it on demand, I don't need to learn this ahead of time if I'm not interested in it or if my area of interest is in Architecture for example.

The most important thing to improve comprehension is knowledge. If you have to read a piece on climate change without any knowledge of it, it will take you a huge amount of time to be functional literate in the subject.

If you want to read anything fluently and be able to understand it you need a great deal.of background knowledge.

https://www.aft.org/periodical/american-educator/spring-2006/how-knowledge-helps

Have a read of the above.

Any cognitive scientist will tell you how important knowledge is because of the way in which working memory and long term memory work. Don't listen to people who have no background in science of learning in the same way you don't listen to Christian fundamentalists about climate change.

In the wind

I read about a 1/3 of the way down that article & fund myself agreeing with it. Which helps focus where my problem lies with Standard Education & I reckon it comes back to 2 things.
[1] enforcing a subject on Students that either cannot or have no interest in learning it. Let's say history.
[2] The use of testing methods that reward ability to ingest, retain & recall History "facts".
Why not let those students develop their critical thinking, comprehension & pool of general knowledge in areas of strength & interest? At least they are ingesting & being expected to recall a topic that is far more potentially relevant than History for example for a Student that has a natural flair & affinity for say, building design.

lazygal

You cannot go through life only learning about things which you want to learn about. I have next to no interest in maths but I'm glad I wasn't allowed to drop it in favour of reading history all day. That makes for a very unbalanced education.

shesty

You might have some argument if you are talking about older kids.If you are talking about primary school-they need to be exposed to as much as possible for learning (otherwise the only things taught about would be dinosaurs, paw patrol and the like).Also the retaining facts argument - like it or lump it, the brain learns through repetition.You have to have a degree of repetition ie rote learning, in the teaching process.Otherwise the brain won't retain the knowledge.You can dress it up how you want, apps, games, songs, whatever but at the end of the day it comes down to repetition.If you take a class of little kids, they may not be rote learning exactly-but they will be singing the same few songs everyday for weeks, connecting the language in the song to movements or vocab or something (say head, shoulders, knees and toes, as a really simplistic example).And that is how they learn.There are basic things in life that have to be rote learned-maths tables, the alphabet, spelling the basic stuff to get you through life-indeed, to get you to the point of being able to read said internet articles that are of interest.

As for the argument about only looking at what you're interested in, I can't accept that.For example I am an engineer.I happen to be excellent at languages, and had to work a bit harder at maths, but that's what I chose.In my career I have met many engineers who are quite generally rubbish at languages.Their writing skills are poor, and their knowledge and use of the english language, particularly when writing, is mediocre.It's a common thing in engineering, as often maths is what they enjoy and excel at,and they view it as being the only important thing needed for their chosen path.The problem is that they then get into a workplace and discover that, as time goes on-all they are doing is writing.Reports, emails, presentations, technical documents.There's not that much maths involved on a day to day basis,and I have seen it hold people back in their careers.These are very intelligent people who can grasp mathematical concepts that most others would struggle with, but who can't structure an email with proper language, paragraphs, or a comprehensible train of thought -a beginning, middle and an end. The teaching of maths in college and the subjects taught train us to be problem solvers, to use these skills to approach problems, but the solutions often then have to be translated into something that (a) the general non-engineering public can understand and (b) that needs to be communicated in a written document of some sort.It's a huge stumbling block for many engineers and for me actually highlights the importance of having a good all-round exposure to subjects, rather than narrowly just sticking to what you are interested in, because Google exists.

Farmer Bob

In the wind wrote: »

Is this a good approach in a day when any or all of the above fact based recall measured learning is available in our pockets?

All the more reason for a good education.

Not everything one reads on the internet is true, and critical thinking is a handy tool if you're not to believe that the earth is flat or that Jesus coexisted with dinosaurs...

shesty

The thread around here somewhere on arguments whether to vaccinate your child or not is a prime example of this.

rainbowtrout

In the wind wrote: »

I read about a 1/3 of the way down that article & fund myself agreeing with it. Which helps focus where my problem lies with Standard Education & I reckon it comes back to 2 things.
[1] enforcing a subject on Students that either cannot or have no interest in learning it. Let's say history.
[2] The use of testing methods that reward ability to ingest, retain & recall History "facts".
Why not let those students develop their critical thinking, comprehension & pool of general knowledge in areas of strength & interest? At least they are ingesting & being expected to recall a topic that is far more potentially relevant than History for example for a Student that has a natural flair & affinity for say, building design.

How will a student know if they like something or not, if they are not exposed to it? You've picked history as an arbitrary subject, so I'll run with that: it covers a huge area. I loved all the stuff I did in primary school, about explorers - the race to the north and south pole, discovering cave paintings in Lascaux and Altamira, the discovery of Tutankhamen's tomb etc, the mystery of the Easter Island statues. To this day I would say it has influenced the kind of holidays I go on. In secondary I liked the age of exploration again, the roman empire, the cold war. The Irish political stuff - not so much. And that influenced my choice not to take it for Leaving Cert. It doesn't stop me being interested in all of those other things for interests sake. e.g. walking around Berlin on holiday and understanding the significance of so much of what exists in the city.

On a side note, building design exists for Leaving Cert, it's called Construction Studies and is the follow on from Junior Cert Woodwork. Personally I think you just have a set on History. Learning from our past, hopefully prevents us from making the same mistakes in the future.

I don't know how long you've been out of the education system, and you're clearly not a teacher, but exams do require some level of recall of facts, but in latter years exams have been designed to require critical thinking and creativity. There are a wide range of subjects available at second level and students are required to study very few compulsory subjects.

https://wicklowsudburyschool.com/

Dravokivich

Most of our education aside of science is a matter of comphrension and language skills. If they can't read a book, understand it's contents and write up about it. You may have something to be concerned about. And it's not a matter of content.

Dev84

Ah sure look itll be grand like.

In the wind

rainbowtrout wrote: »

In the wind wrote: »

I read about a 1/3 of the way down that article & fund myself agreeing with it. Which helps focus where my problem lies with Standard Education & I reckon it comes back to 2 things.
[1] enforcing a subject on Students that either cannot or have no interest in learning it. Let's say history.
[2] The use of testing methods that reward ability to ingest, retain & recall History "facts".
Why not let those students develop their critical thinking, comprehension & pool of general knowledge in areas of strength & interest? At least they are ingesting & being expected to recall a topic that is far more potentially relevant than History for example for a Student that has a natural flair & affinity for say, building design.

How will a student know if they like something or not, if they are not exposed to it? You've picked history as an arbitrary subject, so I'll run with that: it covers a huge area. I loved all the stuff I did in primary school, about explorers - the race to the north and south pole, discovering cave paintings in Lascaux and Altamira, the discovery of Tutankhamen's tomb etc, the mystery of the Easter Island statues. To this day I would say it has influenced the kind of holidays I go on. In secondary I liked the age of exploration again, the roman empire, the cold war. The Irish political stuff - not so much. And that influenced my choice not to take it for Leaving Cert. It doesn't stop me being interested in all of those other things for interests sake. e.g. walking around Berlin on holiday and understanding the significance of so much of what exists in the city.

On a side note, building design exists for Leaving Cert, it's called Construction Studies and is the follow on from Junior Cert Woodwork. Personally I think you just have a set on History. Learning from our past, hopefully prevents us from making the same mistakes in the future.

I don't know how long you've been out of the education system, and you're clearly not a teacher, but exams do require some level of recall of facts, but in latter years exams have been designed to require critical thinking and creativity. There are a wide range of subjects available at second level and students are required to study very few compulsory subjects.

In the case where a student has freedom to choose & pursue his area of natural interest or ability then he would be able to explore History if he were drawn to it & if it didn't work out then move on promptly & not spend several years pursuing a topic that is irrelevant to him. I have nothing against History, just an example for example's sake.
Take your own case, you enjoyed history thoroughly in school & have carried that interest into Adult life - good for you (sincere) but it's not for everyone.
I left 3rd level 97-98 & my experience as a parent has only reached 4th grade so I agree I don't have 1st hand exposure to current 2nd & 3rd level education but from distant observation of Nieces & Nephews the Leaving certificate does not seem to have moved a long way from the fact recall measures that I remember.

Paddy Cow

I think the biggest problem with secondary education is they are memorising, not learning. When I started first year our Irish teacher used to get us to learn off large paragraphs that we could re-word a little to fit any essay. I then moved to a rural school (only 20 students in my whole year) and I was told not to do this. We were thought to understand the material. This was the approach for every subject.

I had a job looking after students attending Yates College and all they did was learn off essays. I remember one day two of them were learning off a geography essay! I couldn't believe it. There should be a ban on that type of "teaching". Any teacher who simply gets kids to parrot things off shouldn't be allowed to teach. A lot of these kids then struggle when they go to college. They expect to just learn off the lecture slides and pass their exams. They get a huge shock when they realise the slides are the bare minimum and they are expected to do a lot of learning and understanding on their own.