Electrician - how much damage is acceptable?

Hi guys,

I've built an extension. Electrician first fixed. extension ploughed along and now everything is pretty much done except 2nd fix electrics.


Electrician shows up to do 2nd fix. part of this is hanging lights in the Ceiling. there are 4 lights. the lights are track lights by ikea. you wire a small power point, which the tracks connect to. you can search skeninge on the ikea site to see what I mean.

Anyway , the ceiling is pulled down (to allow access to wiring to 1st fix) and put up again. plastered and painted. all that is visible in the ceiling are 4 small holes with the wires poking out for the lights to be connected.

It's important to note that the wires were correctly centred and aligned so the lights wouldn't be all over the place.


Anyway. I come home from work, and 2nd fix on the lights is done. it wasn't done by the electrician himself, but instead by his "business partner" that I haven't met personally.

As youd expect, based on the thread title: The ceiling is in bits. there are random holes drilled everywhere and literally boxes cut out of the ceiling above the lights. the lights aren't straight either.

I have had 2 reasons why they are like this. the first reason he gave was that it was to find the wooden beams to screw into to support the lights. this makes no sense as the holes he drilled aren't where the lights would be going anyway. almost a foot away.

the 2nd excuse is that the lights weren't centred and needed to be corrected. but i kniw thats bollocks because I was there when the plasteredr centered them using a laser level.

Naturally, I'm absolutely furious. I am livid with the electrician but biting my tongue as he has yet to finish the job. he is still owed money.

Now, he did price the job quite well (as far as I can tell, I didn't price around but his quote seemed reasonable). hw himself is a lovely, very decent chap.

I'm assuming he is also annoyed about the ceiling that his 'business partner' has damaged. but I'm wondering if I'm over reacting.

I've had a few setbacks with the extension but have smiled all the way through. however this is unforgivable to me. (but again, perhaps I'm over reacting). if there was a legit reason for the holes I'd understand but I just seems like someone who should never have been let near a drill tried to do a job they weren't competent enough to do.

Could ye guys tell me if I'm out of line to expect him to fix this or reduce the amount I owe him to cover the cost of the plasterer coming back (I predict I'll pay about 150-200 to get it sorted).

I've never attached pics to a boards thread using the phone but I'll try to attach some in the next post.

Cheers.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

None at all. Pics will clarify, but you can’t be walking off a job with the place in bits behind you.

This is one of the lights


https://s9.postimg.org/ra45k21in/20180127_212655.jpg

here are 3 others (4 separate lights fittings)


https://s9.postimg.org/y0kmtnwfz/20180126_203605.jpg

https://s9.postimg.org/ju4vyftan/20180126_203618.jpg

https://s9.postimg.org/yq3f60hjz/20180126_203632.jpg


I used postimage as I can't seem to attach to boards for some reason.

It's possible he might fix the issues but I'm doubtful. when it comes time for him to finish and get paid, would I be right in saying I'm not paying in full due to the damage caused and withhold what I predict it will cost to fix the ceiling?

like I say he did price it very reasonably but I'm not sure that excludes him from being professional and sending incompetent workers to my house.

I will see him on Monday. I'm hoping he will put his hands up? admit fault and agree to something.

but at the same time.. I'm not sure if it's just me overreacting and i should have been anticipating my ceiling would be damaged. (Although again, from looking at the pictures, the holes are in the most random of places and nowhere near the lights!)

DesperateDan

I wouldn't be letting an electrician leave holes in the ceiling, is it normal to even let them leave one?! I always thought if someone was called in to do a job and they make a mess they need to clean up after themselves. I guess a big job is different, probably holes and mess all over the place right now so he thought what's a couple more. Maybe he didn't think you were completely done plastering?!

OssifiedEd

Why not leave him turn up and fix the problem? If your not happy with the fix then sit down with 2 cups of tea and come to an arrangement? I never understood threatening someone by withholding payment without giving a reasonable chance at a remedy to the problem in the first place.

enricoh

Imo the plasterer or whoever put up the plasterboard should have notched out holes for the cables and dropped down the cables. Would save a lot of hassle

Or the spark should have come back before it was skimmed and cored them out. At least if he made a few holes the plasterer could have fixed back in and skim over.

Cloudio9

A DIY'er can find the joists without making test holes everywhere.

That's shocking but the main thing is the electrician doesn't have all his money so you need to keep that money until the holes are fixed. You can't be soft on this..ignore promises. Trades people all disappear once they've been paid.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

Nah, that’s woeful, there’s a tool called a bradawl that’s specifically for the purpose of finding joists, without leaving a trail of destruction . If I remember right, you’re from Drogheda, aren’t you? Will you PM me the name of your sparks?

enricoh

enricoh wrote: »

Imo the plasterer or whoever put up the plasterboard should have notched out holes for the cables and dropped down the cables. Would save a lot of hassle

Or the spark should have come back before it was skimmed and cored them out. At least if he made a few holes the plasterer could have fixed back in and skim over.

I know my op is a mess of paragraphs and spelling errors, but just to clarify, there were holes cut out and the wires were hanging out for the electrician to simply wire the lights and move on. this is what has me skips annoyed.

In relation to q previous post, the whole kitchen is fitted, plastered and painted. he definitely knew it was finished being plastered.

enricoh

Oh, that's a different ball game then, that's woeful workmanship so

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy wrote: »

Nah, that’s woeful, there’s a tool called a bradawl that’s specifically for the purpose of finding joists, without leaving a trail of destruction . If I remember right, you’re from Drogheda, aren’t you? Will you PM me the name of your sparks?

I will on Monday. In the meantime i think its onky fair to give him a chance to redeem himself. I'll see him Monday and hopefully he'll be reasonable about it.

OssifiedEd

OssifiedEd wrote: »

Why not leave him turn up and fix the problem? If your not happy with the fix then sit down with 2 cups of tea and come to an arrangement? I never understood threatening someone by withholding payment without giving a reasonable chance at a remedy to the problem in the first place.

I mentioned I was unhappy in a text. he replied that I'm free to employ someone else.

I will give him the opportunity to fix it, of course. I have had lots of tradesmen over the past few months. a few issues here and there but all have been great about it and dealt with me very professionally.

This seems to be going differently as, instead of acknowledging there is an issue, this time I'm getting excuses as to why it was done in the first place.

I'll give every opportunity. I'd like to be on good terms with him after this as I'll have more work and rewiring needing down down the line, but im not gonna be taken for a fool either.

He himself seems grand. it's his 'business partner' that has the place in bits. but he's the one responsible in my eyes.

reason I initially made the thread to clarify that my anger over it is justified in the first place.

salmocab

Just to say that they look like LED fittings that often are sealed units with only one cable entry so even if the wiring was left centered the cable may have needed to be moved to the end of the fitting.

Thargor

Images not working...

salmocab

salmocab wrote: »

Just to say that they look like LED fittings that often are sealed units with only one cable entry so even if the wiring was left centered the cable may have needed to be moved to the end of the fitting.

Yeah, the wires are where the power point gets connected. the power point is 'the start' of the track. so each set of wires left hanging would be the start point for a track, not the centre of it.

So again, the wires were in the right place to make it as simple as possible for him. you'll also notice the holes in the ceiling are nowhere near the lights. They seem very random and pointless.

Thargor

Thargor wrote: »

Images not working...

They seem okay to me? anyone else having trouble with them? I can reupload this evening if so.

listermint

Tbh it looks like ****e work , there may be some truth to trying to find the stud but you can use stud finders to do that.

It's a lazy man's work. Who doesn't care and want's to be in an out as fast as possible.

I'd be pissed with that too , there is zero excuse for it if he was in any way decent at his craft. Clearly that fella wasn't

hufpc8w3adnk65

I’m wondering was there a neutral or live or something dropped and he had to fish it in after wards?

kramer1

Looks like he forgot a cable and and had to half ass It, still there's better ways of doing it than just beating holes in the ceiling.

Dev84

Thats a horrific job. Bring in the main sparks amd show him what his partner did.

I would think he will then fix them.

cuppa

The sparks wont fix the holes, he only knows how to make them. Good luck

Get the sparks to pay for plasterer to come back or DIY it on them holes

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

Tuco88

I would also tend to agree on the missing a cable theory. Might not have been his fault tho, it might have been pushed aside or covered by mistake.

The finding the joists.... Why not use toggle fixings?

Bruthal

Looks like a diy expert job, but you never can tell what might have happened.

I used to usually add in my own grounds between joists, with cables through them, for lights, depending on the type etc. Always liked having a final solid position, for the wiring to finish at first fix.

I have had to cut holes in ceilings before, usually after slabs have pinned cables to joists, after careless slabbing. Every trade has its gougers.

Bruthal

cuppa wrote: »

The sparks wont fix the holes, he only knows how to make them.

Is that the same for all of them?

Bruthal

salmocab wrote: »

Just to say that they look like LED fittings that often are sealed units with only one cable entry so even if the wiring was left centered the cable may have needed to be moved to the end of the fitting.

Hardly be needing holes to the sides of the lights to sort that.

daheff

Has the sparks or his accomplis got a reci license? Could u make a complaint to them for this work?

Will your work need a cert from the sparks afterwards? If you do, you know hes not gonna give it go you until you pay him in full.

thierry14

Bruthal wrote: »

Is that the same for all of them?

Any spark I hired for small jobs like lights always plastered up after himself, its a basic skill even I know.

I would be livid OP, your ceiling looks like something I could do with my little diy experience

Expect a lot better from a pro

mickdw

The last 2 photos with some holes adjacent to and mostly covered by the light fitting could be deemed necessary for what ever reason but the random broken holes are terrible.
Is was his job to ensure everything needed was complete within the ceiling before slabbing never mind finished plaster.

Bruthal

mickdw wrote: »

The last 2 photos with some holes adjacent to and mostly covered by the light fitting could be deemed necessary for what ever reason

They look like a diy hobiest job. If holes are needed above the light, they can easily be kept smaller than the width of the light.

Again, we dont know the exact details, and there are endless possibilities, but it does hint at the electrician sending in the diy enthusiast to finish off.

If all wiring was properly in position somewhere along the length of the light position, then its a bad one.

salmocab

Bruthal wrote: »

Hardly be needing holes to the sides of the lights to sort that.

I wasn’t trying to say he done an acceptable job but unless your there it’s hard to know could be a noggin there and he needed to go beside it might be heating pipes etc, I’m not standing up for the sparks but there may be reasons for making the holes like that but he should have at least patched the cut bits back in ready to be filled and painted

Sleeper12

daheff wrote:

Has the sparks or his accomplis got a reci license? Could u make a complaint to them for this work?

A reci licence only covers the safety of the wiring. They can be as messy or neat as they want so long as the wiring meets standards

Get the main man in and let him see his partners handy work.

Bruthal

salmocab wrote: »

I wasn’t trying to say he done an acceptable job but unless your there it’s hard to know could be a noggin there and he needed to go beside it might be heating pipes etc, I’m not standing up for the sparks but there may be reasons for making the holes like that but he should have at least patched the cut bits back in ready to be filled and painted

If all wiring needed is out of ceiling withing the light fitting footprint, no holes need be outside the footprint of the fitting. Either frank spencer came in, or wiring was missing, or hidden by slabs.

salmocab

Bruthal wrote: »

If all wiring needed is out of ceiling withing the light fitting footprint, no holes need be outside the footprint of the fitting. Either frank spencer came in, or wiring was missing, or hidden by slabs.

Yeah I agree with that but neither you nor I have seen more than the photos and read that the OP said the cables were in the right place. Could be they weren’t, it’s a rough way to leave somebody’s ceiling but it is possible the holes were necessary on the day. It may have been the original wiring was wrong or the cables didn’t match up as expected. Again I’m not suggesting it’s okay to leave the ceiling like that but it may have been necessary to do some damage or to have holes outside of the footprint of the fitting

Bruthal

salmocab wrote: »

Yeah I agree with that but neither you nor I have seen more than the photos

As said earlier....

Bruthal wrote: »

Again, we dont know the exact details, and there are endless possibilities.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

How did you get on?

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy wrote: »

How did you get on?

Sorry, been working a lot of hours so didnt get a chance to get online.


Main lad appeared, stuck to the story of moving the lights to centre them being the reason for the holes in the roof. Even if true, there are only 2 that would need to have been moved, and yet all 4 need patching up.


Anyway, i made it clear i wasnt happy, he was reasonable about it. He did price it well in the first place (which I was conscious of). We had a cup of tea and a chat. Plasterer popped over and said he can fix it when he's plastering elsewhere in the house (which is grand, though it means i have to get him back sooner than i would have liked, as i want the ceiling in the kitchen fixed, but didnt really otherwise want him back too soon). So I'm starting another house-job that I'd have rathered not start for a little while to get some cash together for it properly.

Upside is that the electrician won me back by doing some extra little bits i didn't ask him to do, but that were useful and helpful.

I am still of the opinion that had i been there when the lights were being fitted that the damage wouldnt be there, but I will live with it for the moment. I was very, irrationally, angry about it for about 2 days, but realised it was only myself i was annoying.


I'm happy with his work overall, his price and his attitude in general. I'd have him back again. His 'business partner', not so much.