Holiday home overholding

rex-x

Hi, first time poster in here looking for some advice.

We own a holiday home that is typically let all year round for 1-3 weeks at a time (touristy spot) Bookings are mainly done online and paid with credit card etc all automatic so you never know who will turn up.

All has been well for the last 5 years until this week a family of itinerants (may or may not be relevant) with 2 parents and 3 kids booked and paid online. They rang yesterday which would have been their last day and said they are refusing to leave the property and will be staying there rent free for as long as they see fit and that they 'know their rights'. They are being clever and never leaving the house vacant for a second.

Now typically none of the usual suspects have any interest (Guards, Solicitor etc). What is the normal procedure for removal in this situation?

Atlantic Dawn

It's a holiday letting for a specific period and not a lease. This time of the year if you were to take your front and back door off they would likely move out sharpish.

Mrs OBumble

Just pay them to leave. It will be quicker in the long run.

Who was the booking thru airbnb? Contact them for advice maybe?

rex-x

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Just pay them to leave. It will be quicker in the long run.

Who was the booking thru airbnb? Contact them for advice maybe?

We would be going down the violence route long before we would ever pay them to be honest. I know its a different situation to a long term lease on the likes of a home so am just wondering who to contact to 'fast track' their removal (legally)

scudzilla

If i booked a hotel room, paid for 3 nights and then told hotel i was staying put i'm pretty sure the Garda would be called to remove me, how is this different?

0ph0rce0

A bunch of knackers have stolen your house and the guards won't get them out?

Useless *****.

Back down to that station asap

rex-x

The Gardai have stated its a civil matter and they wont intervene.

0ph0rce0

rex-x wrote:

The Gardai have stated its a civil matter and they wont intervene.

Go back and tell them your house is being burgled and the intruders are inside

muttnjeff

rex-x wrote: »

The Gardai have stated its a civil matter and they wont intervene.

unbelievable

not saying its untrue
bloody unbelievable that the law wont /cant
intervene

rex-x

muttnjeff wrote: »

unbelievable

not saying its untrue
bloody unbelievable that the law wont /cant
intervene

From reading a few of the threads on here and some posts by GM228 (sp??) It seems the Gardai don't actually have the power to remove people so if you as in the example above stayed in a hotel for too long they would be unable to legally remove you.

I'm all ears to ideas.

Noo

Are you willing to enter the property with them there? If so, go in (with back up) and start removing all the furniture and everything, going for the essentials first. Or maybe get the water and electricity cut off?

surrender monkey

This isn't a tenancy and the RTB has no jurisdiction. They don't have any rights they are trespassing on private property. Cut the power, gas internet everything and hound them out.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2004/act/27/section/3/enacted/en/html#sec3

April 73

They don’t have any rights to stay as they are not tenants. I’d turn off the utilities & get your furniture removed. Change the locks if they haven’t done that already? I like the idea of taking off the front & back door. They can’t all be there all the time? You need a bunch of burly helpers I think to carry them out.

If burglars break into my house & start living there would the guards really say it’s a civil matter?

Orangeglacier

Any way you can continue charging them with the details they gave you in the mean time? Or find something they've damaged and report them for criminal damage

_Brian

This is a terrible situation.

I agree with a poster above that they are looking to be paid off to move and at this stage the chances are your house will be damaged either way

Maybe contact the guards and explain that you are being blackmailed for money with threat of the property being damaged - isn’t that what they said, that’s a criminal issue right there ??

If you had a few hard nosed mates you could rent them the house. Have them move in regardless ignoring anyone already there, not confrontational but occupying the property and making things uncomfortable.

I don’t know

shopper2011

Mrs OBumble wrote:

Just pay them to leave. It will be quicker in the long run.

That idea is bad. You'd be better of hiring mercenaries than doing this. Don't be afraid of them, go down there and stand up to the bully.

shopper2011

Mrs OBumble wrote:

Just pay them to leave. It will be quicker in the long run.

That idea is bad. You'd be better of hiring mercenaries than doing this. Don't be afraid of them, go down there and stand up to the bully.

surrender monkey

https://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/features/how-to-keep-squatters-out-of-your-home-276299.html

Here's an article from 2014 there's a solicitor mentioned in it. Perhaps you could get advise there. To be honest I'd say the legal route would cost a fortune.

The_Honeybadger

It’s crazy that the gardai can’t intervene here.

I really like the removing the doors idea, but as much as it would give you satisfaction to get them out without paying them off, I would be worried that they’d destroy the rest of the place before they leave. The cheapest option in the long run may be to just pay them off. It’s a really horrible situation and it makes me mad just thinking about it, can’t imagine the frustration you are feeling op. Hope you get it sorted out.

bigpink

Contact Pavee Point if there travelers?

B00MSTICK

_Brian wrote: »

This is a terrible situation.

I agree with a poster above that they are looking to be paid off to move and at this stage the chances are your house will be damaged either way

I don’t know

Unfortunately the lovely guests would have no problem rocking up after they've been removed (by whatever means) and break windows/trash the place anyway.

I think I'd be cancelling all the utilities and going back to the guards and trying them again.


A bit off the beaten track but you could try contact Pavee Point and see if they have any advice. I wouldn't be expecting any but you never know. Desperate times...

April 73

_Brian wrote: »

Maybe contact the guards and explain that you are being blackmailed for money with threat of the property being damaged - isn’t that what they said, that’s a criminal issue right there

Yes, surely blackmail is a criminal offence?

How did they pay previously? Can you charge their card again for rent. Ultimately though you need them gone ASAP so that isn’t really the answer. The longer they are there the harder & more costly this will get.

touts

Sadly you're better off to pay them to get out. These type will think nothing of trashing the place and doing thousands of euro of damage before you drag them out. Then they will probably come back in the middle of the night and burn the place down. And all the time the criminal justice industry will take their side because they are the ones that drive the income of the judges, lawyers, guards etc. If you take any physical action against them to defend your rights and property YOU will be the one the justice industry will put in jail because you are likely to only be a one time offender so worth nothing to them. Plus you'll be depicted in the media as a racist especially if you dare to do something like turn down a booking from their cousins a week later.

So my advise is pay them off and try to find a legal way to filter future bookings (which is increasingly difficult).

bigpink

Go to the Guards again and tell them trespassing

bigpink

Who manages the letting?

Heres Johnny

Our traveller brethren covering themselves in glory again. Really are a scourge.
I don't think violence will work they thrive on that. Pavee point if they are serious about getting respect for their community should intervene here and you should try them.

This is the reason they dont have the respect of the settled community so use that as your angle.

jasper100

rex-x wrote: »

From reading a few of the threads on here and some posts by GM228 (sp??) It seems the Gardai don't actually have the power to remove people so if you as in the example above stayed in a hotel for too long they would be unable to legally remove you.

I'm all ears to ideas.

I would think you would need to form a posse. Then call the guards. When the guards are coming down the road then enter the building and say you have just walked in and happened to find intruders in your property.

blindside88

I agree with a previous poster. Call the guards and say your holiday home is being burgled and the burgers are still inside causing damage. I’d be sure to advise the attending Gardai that if they don’t act you’ll be contacting GSOC and the media

The_Conductor

First port of call- is the agency through whom the letting was managed.
They *need* to be made aware of the situation- and I would also explore whether you have a case against them.
As for the current intruders (and I'm not entirely sure how they wouldn't be classified as 'intruders')- you need proper legal advice on an appropriate course of action.

Company through whom the letting was made- first port of call........

the_syco

Turn off power, water, TV, internet; everything.

rex-x wrote: »

itinerants

Pay them to leave, or they'll do one or all;

• clean the house down to the lightbulbs
• burn the place down
• move a caravan to the side, and live there forever

shopper2011 wrote: »

That idea is bad. You'd be better of hiring mercenaries than doing this. Don't be afraid of them, go down there and stand up to the bully.

Standing up to them will end with one or all;

• no life
• missing body parts
• burning house

deandean

What a horrible, disgusting situation for you OP. Whatever you do, do it fast. They're probably trashing the house as we speak. I hope you get it sorted.

beertons

The onus must surely be on the booking company here.

blondeonblonde

Really sorry to hear about your situation OP. The law seems to be totally skewed in favour of these degenerates.

See quote from Irish examiner article below:

""Squatters’ rights are not easily achieved. It’s not just a matter of moving onto somebody else’s property and staying put for 12 years. “The Latin phrase nec clam, nec vi, nec precario (neither secretly, nor by force, nor with permission) comes into play,” explains O’Leary. “Essentially the squatter must openly use and refuse to vacate the property. His behaviour has to be the equivalent of thumbing his nose at the owner.

“If, during the period of occupation, he accesses the property secretly or under cover of darkness, or if admits that it doesn’t belong to him, or acknowledges that the owner has title, no court will allow him to keep it.”

Can the gardaí help? “Not usually; as trespass is not a criminal matter. But they should of course be called, if an individual trying to repossess property is chased away by someone wielding a pitchfork.”

https://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/features/how-to-keep-squatters-out-of-your-home-276299.html

garhjw

If the gardai won't get involved, physically remove the trespassers from your property. Defend your property and your rights. They will destroy the place.

April 73

Contact Pavee Point & tell them you will be going to Joe Duffy on Monday & contacting national journalists with an interest in traveller stories to have this story in the public domain, about how this family are bringing the whole traveller name into disrepute.
Google for journalists who have written about Pavee Point/travellers & mention their names. Show you have done your research.

bigpink

How is someone legally classed as a traveller actually?

Ray Pissed

Get in contact with this guy too. He preaches enough about respect for travellers etc.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/i-am-a-traveller-not-a-knacker-1.2577202

Lumen

I approached a traveller support group about a particular issue (the details of which aren't similar enough to be useful here) and found them great to deal with.

The experience was a bit intimidating though, mostly due to the massive security employed at their offices.

bigpink

Lumen wrote: »

I approached a traveller support group about a particular issue (the details of which aren't similar enough to be useful here) and found them great to deal with.

The experience was a bit intimidating though, mostly due to the massive security employed at their offices.

Pavee Points HQ?

James 007

bigpink wrote: »

How is someone legally classed as a traveller actually?

One caravan + Hiace van + 4 kids or greater + wife/girlfriend + traveller accent + horses, but not at all times + urge to find scrap metal + saying 'Boss' in sentances

Lumen

bigpink wrote: »

Pavee Points HQ?

Nope, outside Dublin.

GarIT

You can call the gardai and make a threat and they will be down straight away. Park outside/near the property and call the emergency line and tell them you are armed and going into the house to fight them in 15mins the Gardaí will be there in less than 15mins.

I've heard of a different but similar licencee situation resolved by calling a local councelor with a nationalist background who visited the propery peacefully with a few heavy friends and peacefully convinced them to leave, but that situation involved the overholding person being in someone's home.

HONKEY TONK

How is it a civil matter

13.—(1) It shall be an offence for a person, without reasonable excuse, to trespass on any building or the curtilage thereof in such a manner as causes or is likely to cause fear in another person.

(2) (a) Where a member of the Garda Síochána finds a person in a place to which subsection (1) relates and suspects, with reasonable cause, that such person is or has been acting in a manner contrary to the provisions of that subsection, then the member may direct the person so suspected to do either or both of the following, that is to say:

(i) desist from acting in such a manner, and

(ii) leave immediately the vicinity of the place concerned in a peaceable or orderly manner.

(b) It shall be an offence for any person, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, to fail to comply with a direction given by a member of the Garda Síochána under this section.

(3) (a) A person who is guilty of an offence under subsection (1) shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £1,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or to both.

(b) A person who is guilty of an offence under subsection (2) shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £500 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or to both.

DoozerT6

April 73 wrote: »

Contact Pavee Point & tell them you will be going to Joe Duffy on Monday & contacting national journalists with an interest in traveller stories to have this story in the public domain, about how this family are bringing the whole traveller name into disrepute.
Google for journalists who have written about Pavee Point/travellers & mention their names. Show you have done your research.

This. Publicise your situation in the press locally and nationally. Contact RTE news too. Make this VERY uncomfortable for your 'guests' in terms of negative traveller publicity. Can you get audio proof from your network of the phone call where they said they were not leaving?

Contact your insurance company NOW, and tell them the situation. Ensure that you are covered for any damage incurred while they are still there (including the total loss of the property due to, for example, a fire - let's be practical here) so at least you won't be out of pocket completely when this sorry situation is over. Personally, I know what my own suggestion would be but I would get a lifetime ban from Boards for expressing it here.

As suggested above, cut all utilities today.

If you still have their credit card details, and the card hasn't been cancelled yet, how about charging them an exceptionally high rate of rent while they overhold, payable in full, in advance? How quickly can something like that be organised?

I would also suggest that in future, if you let the place again, that you stipulate very clearly in your T&C's that anybody who overstays will be charged TRIPLE the daily rate, per day, until they vacate.

TheChizler

The problem is how to argue they're overstaying in a manner causing fear in the OP. It's a family who had legitimately rented the place refusing to leave at the end of the agreement, it's not like they broke in to the OP's house in the middle of the night.

If they're being reasonable about it (by reasonable I mean not shouting/threatening violence, clearly they're being very unreasonable in normal terms) then I don't see how it's a criminal matter unfortunately.

Lying to the guards telling them your house is being burgled and them turning up to find a family with three kids living there is unlikely do put you in the Gardaí's good books either.

It's a sh***y situation. Maybe ask to talk to the superintendent who might do you a favour? Probably worth contacting a solicitor.

Maybe if you were feeling brave you could turn up and start removing their stuff in a calm manner. If they start threatening violence it then becomes a criminal manner, obviously that's a big risk too.

PhoenixParker

Look into your insurance too, whatever policies you have. They may include legal cover for solicitors fees.

jimmycrackcorm

garhjw wrote:

If the gardai won't get involved, physically remove the trespassers from your property. Defend your property and your rights. They will destroy the place.

They will if you are physically present, trying to tennis the doors and ring to say they are threatening you and being generally violent.

TheChizler

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

They will if you are physically present, trying to tennis the doors and ring to say they are threatening you and being generally violent.

And if they arrive and the trespassers are calm and dispute what the OP is saying?

mrs.doubt.fire

TheChizler wrote: »

And if they arrive and the trespassers are calm and dispute what the OP is saying?

They are travelers, they will lie regardless.

mrs.doubt.fire

The Gardai wont remove them unless they have done some serious damage, not just some damage but serious damage to the property. The Gardai have to remove them then. I know coz I was in a similar situation with travelers a few years ago, thankfully they didnt cause any damage to my property but the Gardai left and I had to remove them my self.

I always say...I'll do it the legal way first and if that dont work...then I'll do it my way. Funny thou...my way always seems to be more effective and I get the job done a hell of a lot faster lol My husband always says...oh PLEASE dont do it your way!! I just smile at him and say...hold my beer and watch this!!

johnnyskeleton

rex-x wrote: »

The Gardai have stated its a civil matter and they wont intervene.

Could you suggest to the gardai that it was obtaining services by deception and therefore a criminal matter?

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/act/50/section/7/enacted/en/html#sec7