More 22000 coach order

Ireland trains

Is there any chance that this is still happening because is was reading something on the irish independent about irish rail planning to order their last diesel order.https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/irish-rail-plans-move-to-electrichybrid-fleet-35892464.html

Losty Dublin

Hybrid technology? Sure CIE have had a hybrid fleet since the 1950's when diesel electric locos replaced steam engines. NIR even had diesel electric railcars in service; nasty noisy bastarding things they were and all.

Ireland trains

No they mean trains that can operate as a diesel and electric. E.g.
Drogheda to pearse, diesel to Mallahide then the pantograph goes up and switches to electric
It's just an excuse to not extend the DART lines

XPS_Zero

Is this hybrid notion cheaper than DART Expansion?

We expanded the DART to Greystones and did a huge upgrade in the early 2000s why can't we extend it now?

Will hybrids be as fast as an expanded DART?

bk

I think the issue is needing to order new trains now, years before the DART extension work is complete.

Remember trains normally last 40 years. If they order Diesel only now, then they will be stuck with them for a long time and would then be wasted once electrification happens. On the other hand if they wait until electrification, then the current over-crowding issues will get worse.

Will hybrids be as fast as an expanded DART?

They would be a little slower as they also have to carry the Diesel engine, fuel, etc. thus heavier. Though of course that depends on the engines, etc. ordered. They could be the same if they order more powerful motors. In the long term the Diesel engine can be removed to make them lighter.

Jamie2k9

They would be a little slower as they also have to carry the Diesel engine, fuel, etc. thus heavier. Though of course that depends on the engines, etc. ordered. They could be the same if they order more powerful motors. In the long term the Diesel engine can be removed to make them lighter.

Well it depends on the design spec, they could easily order by-mode capable of 80-100mph under both power modes.

bk

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Well it depends on the design spec, they could easily order by-mode capable of 80-100mph under both power modes.

Absolutely, I was just talking in a one to one comparison in terms of physics, etc.

However you will pay more for that higher spec.

goingnowhere

Bi mode is always a compromise, have to carry around two propulsion systems

The UK IEP bi mode gets its ass kicked by the 40 year old HST design in a 0 to 125 dash

demanufactured

Just get some more class 66/201 and a few mk3s......

Jamie2k9

goingnowhere wrote: »

Bi mode is always a compromise, have to carry around two propulsion systems

The UK IEP bi mode gets its ass kicked by the 40 year old HST design in a 0 to 125 dash

It is but for IE commuter needs there shouldn't be a noticeable difference to Dundalk, Rosslare, Sligo when DMU wont exceed 80mph on them.

Getting a IEP 3/5 engines is clearly going to cause problems on acceleration. they cut costs for something that will be largely temporary on mainline and/or top speed will never be needed the on nonelectrical in Cornwall.

devnull

The IEP in the UK is a compromise in many areas and pretty much all the operators who are going to operate them feel the same way - however this was a fully DfT led exercise who tried to do everything in-house and badly got it wrong on many levels, from the financing, to the specification and the electrification delays or postponements and the cut corners and hybrid nature of the spec to avoid doing all the necessary infrastructure work.

Ireland trains

Is there any chance the will order more coaches.
And is there ever a chance they might add bars/restaurants coaches to the sets and how long would it take for the train coaches to be built if they were ordered mid 2018

Jamie2k9

Ireland trains wrote: »

Is there any chance the will order more coaches.
And is there ever a chance they might add bars/restaurants coaches to the sets and how long would it take for the train coaches to be built if they were ordered mid 2018

No and they have a restaurant car on 10 sets, the rest don't need them. Probably looking at 2 years before first delivery if ordered in 2018.

dowlingm

Definitely agree that Maynooth should be the first electric expansion as would surely allow more through service at Connolly.

The French run Bombardier jobs that would (with adjustments for Irish loading gauge and platform height) work nicely on the diesel routes that run under wire right now (Dundalk, Wexford, Longford if Maynooth electrified) - probably pricey though!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNCF_Class_B_81500 - they also have a 25kV variant (B82500).

MGWR

Ireland trains wrote: »

No; they mean trains that can operate as a diesel and electric, e.g. Drogheda to Pearse, diesel to Malahide, then the pantograph goes up and switches to electric. It's just an excuse to not extend the DART lines

Why bother? All of those lines are open-air and don't need electrification to prevent asphyxiation.

Besides, would anyone want to ride an 8100/8300 class EMU to Drogheda?

And I'm tired of hearing of electrification to Maynooth, with all due respect to all parties involved and concerned. If they were serious, they would have restored the Harcourt Street Line as DART, run it underground from the South Circular Road to Broadstone, and then have their electric service to Maynooth (originally they wanted the electric lines on the former MGWR to terminate at Blanchardstown; remember that one?)

Technically, the old Harcourt Street railway was Ireland's first electric line, when it used the Drumm battery railcars.

andrewfaulk

Technically, the old Harcourt Street railway was Ireland's first electric line, when it used the Drumm battery railcars.[/quote]

The Giants causeway was the first in Ireland and the first electric passenger railway in the world I believe..

Ireland was a pioneer of many things railway, shame we lost interest

Jamie2k9

dowlingm wrote: »

Definitely agree that Maynooth should be the first electric expansion as would surely allow more through service at Connolly.

The French run Bombardier jobs that would (with adjustments for Irish loading gauge and platform height) work nicely on the diesel routes that run under wire right now (Dundalk, Wexford, Longford if Maynooth electrified) - probably pricey though!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNCF_Class_B_81500 - they also have a 25kV variant (B82500).

Its hard to see what they will go for in terms of Bi-Mode.

If Hyundai Rotem could come up with a Bi-Mode train type I suspect they would be in with a good chance of winning any tender given the good performance of the ICRs.

Its a good opportunity to design an order and not make some mistakes they did when they ordered the ICRs/MarkIVs

MGWR

andrewfaulk wrote: »

MGWR wrote: »

Technically, the old Harcourt Street railway was Ireland's first electric line, when it used the Drumm battery railcars.

The Giants Causeway was the first in Ireland and the first electric passenger railway in the world I believe.

Ireland was a pioneer of many things railway, shame we lost interest

That was a tramway in name and in practice. But you are right: it was quite the pioneer in electrification, with Siemens involved and all; pity it wasn't 100 percent electric and shared operation with steam traction, but it was a beginning. Then again, having a third rail installed on the roadway it ran on was hazardous (this was unlike the conduit third rail on conversions from cable car to that form of electric tram).

The Harcourt Street Line was, at the time the Drumm cars ran on it, the first heavy-rail "electric" Irish line. Certainly the first in what became the Republic.

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Its hard to see what they will go for in terms of Bi-Mode.

If Hyundai Rotem could come up with a Bi-Mode train type I suspect they would be in with a good chance of winning any tender given the good performance of the ICRs.

Its a good opportunity to design an order and not make some mistakes they did when they ordered the ICRs/MarkIVs

out of interest what in your view were the mistakes made?

mine would be that they ordered to few ICR sets but that's a whole other story.

Jamie2k9

end of the road wrote: »

out of interest what in your view were the mistakes made?

mine would be that they ordered to few ICR sets but that's a whole other story.

On the ICR's
* - Bike Storage (IE removed 4 seats per unit)
* - Catering Car, poor design, no storage (luggage rack removed from B coach)
* - Non Catering Car sets, not really adequate either for trolley prep, re-stock etc
* - No First Class Product in the Catering Car
* - No Selective Door Opening Fitted
* - Reservation Displays way to small (new stickers are confusing people even more now!!)
* - Seating - Capacity, only the 6 car sets prehaps one coach all 2x2 and have higher while prehaps a few more 2x2 seating on the 3 car sets
* - Speed spec of 100mph
* - Coupler protection totally inadequate
* - Believe Driver's cabs should be higher/better positioned
* - LED displays could of be located better
* - Set sizes Dinning = 7 car + 4/5 car units

On the Mark IV's
* - Lack of control cars
* - Poor ride qualify
* - Poor Layout

There is an element of hindsight but some silly mistakes which should of have not happened.

dowlingm

"Lack of control cars" on the IVs? You mean like the De Dietrichs? And do what for HEP?

Jamie2k9

dowlingm wrote: »

"Lack of control cars" on the IVs? You mean like the De Dietrichs? And do what for HEP?

Should of said power cars. Mark IV was designed to operate with power cars up to 125mph. IE changed this to PP with 201s with planed to purchase new locomotives capable of 125mph.

The line speed changes on Cork line are meaning 201s are now operating maxed out at 100mph longer which is causing an increase in failures and increase costs in regards to maintaining them.

IE plan to re-engine them with 2 smaller instead of 1 currently but its something they have to get right if it goes ahead.

Why not do the proper thing from day 1 and purchase the Mark IV with power cars and there would not be the same level of failures?

Its like anything the ICR operate out of Connolly don't require as much maintenance because they are never doing more than 70mph most of the time, over on the Heuston side they require more because they are at 80-100mph all day every day.

IE 222

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Should of said power cars. Mark IV was designed to operate with power cars up to 125mph. IE changed this to PP with 201s with planed to purchase new locomotives capable of 125mph.

The line speed changes on Cork line are meaning 201s are now operating maxed out at 100mph longer which is causing an increase in failures and increase costs in regards to maintaining them.

IE plan to re-engine them with 2 smaller instead of 1 currently but its something they have to get right if it goes ahead.

Why not do the proper thing from day 1 and purchase the Mark IV with power cars and there would not be the same level of failures?

Its like anything the ICR operate out of Connolly don't require as much maintenance because they are never doing more than 70mph most of the time, over on the Heuston side they require more because they are at 80-100mph all day every day.

Can the 201s be re-engine for 125mph as well or are structurally restricted to 100mph.

end of the road

IE 222 wrote: »

Can the 201s be re-engine for 125mph as well or are structurally restricted to 100mph.

they are structurally restricted to 110 i think. IE further restrict them to 100 though.

dowlingm

My recollection is that the CAF DVTs were supposedly refittable as power cars if the time came to go 125.

As for reengining the 201s - GO Transit reengined one of their MotivePower EMD 16-710s, which also had a 1000hp CAT HEP engine, with 2x Cummins QSK60, but 647 spent an age in Boise getting modded and then when it came back to Toronto the damn thing wasn't left out without a minder for a year or thereabouts. The original plan was a single QSK95 but that fell through for some reason.

I saw 647 in service today hauling 12 bilevels alone funnily enough. All that to say that it will be interesting to see what, if anything, they manage to squeeze into the 201, which only carries a 12 cylinder and no HEP engine.