Discovery 1x11 – "The Wolf Inside" [** SPOILERS **]

Spear

Haven't seen it yet, so I'm sitting here in work hoping to avoid spoilers. But I'll start the thread at least.

Tristram

Excellent again. Maintaining a good pace!

FutureGuy

Fantastic episode.

I'm really excited about the fact that the two big (but obvious) mysteries that I was hoping wouldn't be dragged across the entire season are now resolved. The Emperor is Georgiou and Tyler has gone full Voq.

Hoping that the rebels escaped, because it was very interesting to see Voq/Sarek etc.

Fantastic performances from everyone.

An easy 9/10

hal9550

Yes again i have to say i was glued to that! Fantastic - the possibilities are endless now

9/10 for sure

I specifically liked:

Voq meeting Tyler/Voq was awesome, with flashbacks to everything from part 1 of the series -

Sarek Melding with Burnham

The IMPERIAL REVEAL which i kinda guessed a while back

The method for getting the info back to discovery was awesome, and for a second i thought that was it for Ash/Voq

The Andorians are similar albeit slightly different than Enterprise - im happy enough with that

Possibilities moving forward

• Could we see the birth of the Alliance?
• Will we see the USS Defiant
• Will we steal Mirror Voq back to our universe???

But yes in my opinion that was pretty amazing, and i have no gripes with it whatsoever

Almost forgot - STAMETS!?!? Whats going on there!!! hum?

Evade

So far I'm liking this step into the Mirror Universe. I'm glad they didn't stretch out Voq/Tyler. That smirk at the end by Lorca almost confirms he's the mirror Lorca. I'm betting that he's in the middle some plan to try take the throne.

I do have one nit pick. What happened to dressing the human members of Disco's crew as Imperials? Everyone in the transporter room at the end had standard Starfleet uniforms.

corkie

So now we know why we needed the Prologue episodes, Introduce characters development for Mirror Versions.

I doubt showing the content in flashback would have worked, because it would break the flow of other episodes to do it that way.

Johnny Storm

Excellent episode!

Spear

This one felt a bit flat to me, and almost workmanlike. There were no real wow moments I thought.

It wasn't without it's merits though. It kept a decent enough steady tone of tension given the atmosphere aboard an ISS vessel. There's nice story points in terms of Burnham being confronted by two ghosts from the past, Voq and then the emperor. Am I also relieved they didn't drag out the Voq reveal and let it all spill out.

I did like the directing though. There was good use of more distant shots to show empty rooms and emphasis isolation.

It just felt a bit flat overall, but it probably didn't help that I saw the preview last week and maybe that gave too much away.

Seriously now no security cameras in the med bay at all???
it was awesome otherwise but i'm pretty sure an assassination attempt and a chat with lorca and all that would take longer than an hour

spookwoman

bluewolf wrote: »

Seriously now no security cameras in the med bay at all???
it was awesome otherwise but i'm pretty sure an assassination attempt and a chat with lorca and all that would take longer than an hour

Privacy issues maybe I'm sure people would love a camera on them while they are getting examined.
I do agree with the amount of time It crossed my mind as well but its TV .

spookwoman

spookwoman wrote: »

Privacy issues maybe I'm sure people would love a camera on them while they are getting examined.
I do agree with the amount of time It crossed my mind as well but its TV .

they could have them in the corridors though and see tyler leaving.
anyway i know it turned into a 'lets fix stamets so' plot point and it's not something i'll go mad about, just had to wonder about it there.

i do agree 9/10 though

Inviere

FutureGuy wrote: »

Fantastic episode.

I'm really excited about the fact that the two big (but obvious) mysteries that I was hoping wouldn't be dragged across the entire season are now resolved. The Emperor is Georgiou and Tyler has gone full Voq.

Hoping that the rebels escaped, because it was very interesting to see Voq/Sarek etc.

Fantastic performances from everyone.

An easy 9/10

Agreed. They've completely nailed it with Discovery imo. I know I'm in a minority, but I fookin' love how the Klingon language sounds in this show!

Slydice

+1 Excellent Episode!

Almost thought some of Rebel Voqs crew were Nausicaans

The_Valeyard

excellent episode


I could watch a whole series based on the Terran Empire

ezra_

I liked it, even though it was a bit of a filler - now we can get to the real story of season 1 part 2.

Lorca is totally mirror Lorca though, sent to spy out the (original) universe for the empire.

_Kaiser_

The_Valeyard wrote: »

excellent episode


I could watch a whole series based on the Terran Empire

Agreed with this, in the same way that the 2-parter Enterprise prelude to this was arguably the best 2 episodes of the show.

I'd much rather watch the adventures conquests of the ISS Discovery to be honest. The whole thing works better for me in terms of the general tone of this series, and the characters are far more compelling (even Burnham) in this Universe - just as they were IMO in ENT.

Very good episode overall. No surprises in the reveal of the Emperor but handled well. Mirror Saru was another highlight. Tyler's "execution" was well done too but I'm kinda surprised he didn't spill his guts on the transporter pad to implicate Burnham.

I'll be sad when they return to our Universe TBH

FutureGuy

Inviere wrote: »

Agreed. They've completely nailed it with Discovery imo. I know I'm in a minority, but I fookin' love how the Klingon language sounds in this show!

Me too. Shazad Latif’s delivery is incredible

CramCycle

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Very good episode overall. No surprises in the reveal of the Emperor but handled well. Mirror Saru was another highlight. Tyler's "execution" was well done too but I'm kinda surprised he didn't spill his guts on the transporter pad to implicate Burnham.

I imagine this can be explained easily. We see when Discovery beam him in, he is annoyed he did not get to die.

To spill his guts on the transporter pad, might have looked like he was looking for away out. There would be no honour in that, no matter how he played it in his mind.

The other is, even if it crossed his mind, bar trying to explain that they should read her quantum signature and the mirror universe bit, it would just look like the cries of desperation of a man sentenced to death. She could have easily dismissed this and beamed him out, and still come out looking like the captain.

pixelburp

Well you certainly can't accuse Discovery of spinning its wheels; the Voq mystery and murder of the doc lasted, what, 2, 3 episodes at the most? (If we count from when L'rell was captured and the dominoes started to fall) other shows would have nurtured that sleep agent story for a whole season.

Obviously the talk of the episode was all about the Mirror stuff, but a shout out to Tilly and Saru once more showing clear Trekiness amongst the darker shades; the finest technobabble surrounded the whole Stamets subplot and both Tilly and Saru had some enjoyable beats. And honestly at this stage, Captain Saru has a nice ring to it: there's just as much mileage to be gained from a prey species as captain, as Lorca and his own ....

Sparko

Entertaining episode despite the reveals being predicted elsewhere I still found myself enjoying it.

Nice to see an Andorian, no drastic changes makeup wise.

Mirror Sarek having a goatee made me laugh!

Goodshape

That was pretty good.

Skedaddle

It was very watchable. What's killing it for me is that Netflix looks fantastic on Eir's VDSL2 fibre, but for some reason seem poorer quality and slightly 'strobing' as if the frame rate is lower when I have watched on Virgin Media 240 Mbit/s.

Roar

FutureGuy wrote: »

Me too. Shazad Latif’s delivery is incredible

I wonder what the Klingon for "Hello Stephen? This is Clem Fandango. Can you hear me?" is

My wife says that at least twice an episode when we're watching it. Makes me laugh each time.

YES I CAN HEAR YOU CLEM FANDANGO.

CramCycle

Roar wrote: »

I wonder what the Klingon for "Hello Stephen? This is Clem Fandango. Can you hear me?" is

My wife says that at least twice an episode when we're watching it. Makes me laugh each time.

YES I CAN HEAR YOU CLEM FANDANGO.

nuqneH, stephen? clem Fandango ghotvam'e'. laH HI'Ij SoH?

seamus

Sparko wrote: »

Entertaining episode despite the reveals being predicted elsewhere I still found myself enjoying it.

Nice to see an Andorian, no drastic changes makeup wise.

Mirror Sarek having a goatee made me laugh!

+1
I might stop overanalysing it and spoiling it for myself by guessing the big reveals a week in advance.

There's good genuine tension in this, it works well.

I expect mirror Saru will become Burnham's ally on the Shenzhou.

Think it's also pretty much confirmed that Lorca is mirror Lorca. When the emperor appeared he acted like someone who knew what he was looking at, not like someone surprised to see Georgiou.

We should also not forget that the emperor knows all about the mirror universe; that's how she has the Defiant. So that has the potential for big reveals or twists in the next episode.

I wonder what the story is with the Stamets. It looks like they've been "uploaded" to the mycelial network, and Mirror Stamets got there first - which would make sense since there'd be no ethical restrictions on them jumping. And clearly he has some kind of plan in mind.

Spear

seamus wrote: »

I wonder what the story is with the Stamets. It looks like they've been "uploaded" to the mycelial network, and Mirror Stamets got there first - which would make sense since there'd be no ethical restrictions on them jumping. And clearly he has some kind of plan in mind.

Didn't Stamets start out as more of an asshole? Didn't he only appear to be more friendly after accessing the mycelial network? Is it possible the mirror Stamets is actually the good one?

Spear

Spear wrote: »

Didn't Stamets start out as more of an asshole? Didn't he only appear to be more friendly after accessing the mycelial network? Is it possible the mirror Stamets is actually the good one?

Who knows?? And that's brilliant.

The mycelium network is the real story of the series so far. Mega trippy sci fi

Spear

Hmm, something occurred to me about the mirror Lorca possibility.

It was established earlier on that Lorca has light sensitive vision, ostensibly due to being exposed to the explosion of the Buran.

But in this episode Burnham makes a point of monologueing that the stars seemed dimmer in the mirror universe. Was this a pointer to something given the now established way the things (Voq, Georgiou etc) keep coming back around later.

Johnny Storm

My random thoughts:
Great ep. I hope they can maintain the standard of eps 10 and 11 in future.
I believed that Burnham had gone full Tony Soprano and had actually executed Klingon-Tyler. It seemed to me like a slight cop-out when it turned out he wasn't dead.
Also I thought Burnham would have had a more emotional reaction to Sarek, although I suppose that "logically" it wasn't the right place for it.

seamus

Johnny Storm wrote: »

I believed that Burnham had gone full Tony Soprano and had actually executed Klingon-Tyler. It seemed to me like a slight cop-out when it turned out he wasn't dead.

I was actually a little disappointed initially. I thought they'd gone full Game of Thrones on it and spent an insane amount of time developing a character, only to snuff him out in seconds. So I was conflicted - it was a bit of a cop-out saving him, but I was also glad that arc was going to be allowed to develop. I expect to see Voq and L'Rel escape from the brig when Discovery gets attacked by the Defiant.

pixelburp

I suspect this isn't the last we've seen of 'Tyler' though; it'd be a little cheap if having established this fairly interesting, charismatic character, it's then completely consumed by the reemergence of Vo'q never to be seen again. Given Vo'q's constant berating of humans as weak, it'd be an obvious counterpoint to that if he found the Tyler personality to be still around and fighting for dominance. After-all: how much of this body and mind is Tyler, and how much is Vo'q?

On that point, I was surprised just how gruesome those fleeting shots of the Tyler-Voq operation were. I'm not squeamish by all accounts, and have no great aversion to R-rated violence in Trek generally, but it seemed to border a little on the torture-porn territory.

Speculation though: what do we think of alt-Stamets? I still stand by the belief that not all Mirror people are so ruthless, and I wonder if perhaps the two versions will work together to get the Discovery home, having had their minds altered by this sudden perception of the larger universe...

Optimus Prime

my knowledge of the mirror universe isnt great, ive seen the episodes a few times but cant remember all the details through all the trek shows, but am i right in saying in the DS9 episodes that humans are the ones that are trying to rebel against the alien races? So at some stage the humans are overthrown by the rebel aliens we see here on discovery?

Could we be looking at how that happens here on discovery? or was this already show on a previous trek show?

Optimus Prime

Optimus Prime wrote: »

my knowledge of the mirror universe isnt great, ive seen the episodes a few times but cant remember all the details through all the trek shows, but am i right in saying in the DS9 episodes that humans are the ones that are trying to rebel against the alien races? So at some stage the humans are overthrown by the rebel aliens we see here on discovery?

Could we be looking at how that happens here on discovery? or was this already show on a previous trek show?

No, the seeds for that were sown in TOS with mirror Spock, so another 10 years

Spear

Optimus Prime wrote: »

my knowledge of the mirror universe isnt great, ive seen the episodes a few times but cant remember all the details through all the trek shows, but am i right in saying in the DS9 episodes that humans are the ones that are trying to rebel against the alien races? So at some stage the humans are overthrown by the rebel aliens we see here on discovery?

Could we be looking at how that happens here on discovery? or was this already show on a previous trek show?

The Terran empire was already beginning to show the strain of constant warfare and expansion by the original ToS episode. Mirror Spock had aready realised this and hoped to spark reforms to stave this off. By the time of DS9, 80 years later, a grand alliance of alien races had overrun the empire and conquered Earth, enslaving humans, leading to them trying to rebel.

seamus

pixelburp wrote: »

Speculation though: what do we think of alt-Stamets? I still stand by the belief that not all Mirror people are so ruthless, and I wonder if perhaps the two versions will work together to get the Discovery home, having had their minds altered by this sudden perception of the larger universe...

I said I'd try not ruin it for myself, but I do suspect the Mirror Stamets is the "nice guy" and has been forced to endure the spore jumps in less than humane conditions.

Between the two of them I suspect they'll end up collapsing the spore network or rendering it unusable for space travel. This will allow Discovery to return home but without the ongoing question of "why don't we just use the spore drive again".

seamus

seamus wrote: »

I said I'd try not ruin it for myself, but I do suspect the Mirror Stamets is the "nice guy" and has been forced to endure the spore jumps in less than humane conditions.

Between the two of them I suspect they'll end up collapsing the spore network or rendering it unusable for space travel. This will allow Discovery to return home but without the ongoing question of "why don't we just use the spore drive again".

Given the original anthology vision, a closed off first season would make sense.

Spear

Spear wrote: »

The Terran empire was already beginning to show the strain of constant warfare and expansion by the original ToS episode. Mirror Spock had aready realised this and hoped to spark reforms to stave this off. By the time of DS9, 80 years later, a grand alliance of alien races had overrun the empire and conquered Earth, enslaving humans, leading to them trying to rebel.

Not so grand alliance though. We see Klingon, Cardassian, and Bajoran in the alliance.

Smiley's rebels have Vulcans, Trill, Humans so do the Klingons about face on their allies?

The humans are, by and large, still pricks in DS9 mirror too

The_Valeyard

Deleted User wrote: »

Not so grand alliance though. We see Klingon, Cardassian, and Bajoran in the alliance.

Smiley's rebels have Vulcans, Trill, Humans so do the Klingons about face on their allies?

The humans are, by and large, still pricks in DS9 mirror too

Yeah, and the Sol system is still run by the Terran Empire since The Alliance couldn't penetrate its defence systems. Could be Terran spies out there.

The_Valeyard

hal9550

The EMPIRE

My Opinion is that the empire was effectively on its knees when the Enterprise two parter took place - didnt Forrest say that they were losing ships by the dozen? It also makes total sense as although they had slightly more advanced NX class ships, and presumably more of them, they wouldnt have been a match for the Vulcans Andorians, tellarites, and now we can include Klingons by the looks of it

Then Boom. They get a constitution class from the prime universe. Deus ex. They turn the table, expand (as archer said he would just before he was poisoned), and manage to take over the quadrant, including by the looks of things, the klingon empire. One must assume then that the Cardassians of the mirror Universe were a central means by which the Terran Empire was over-run - that and spocks reforms of course

SO in effect.. 'In a Mirror Darkly' is almost a prequel to the entire mirror universe and the empire itself..

LORCA is mirror version?

On this one im gonna say, no.. respectfully i dont see it, and here is why:

• Yes this Lorca is morally compromised, but lets be frank, a war, a ship lost, millions dying... thats morally compromising in itself
• He was fully prepared to warp back to starbase 43 until stamets said, no il jump us there
• He was LITERALLY ABOUT to answer the hail of the Cooper until burnham stopped him - which she did at the last second.. if he had been mirror-lorca he would have found some reason to keep silent, as answering the hail would likely have led to Cooper instantly blast discovery
• His reaction to the Emperor could easily be described as his reaction, to BURNHAM's reaction, as opposed to anything else.
• He was clearly horrified by what he say in the terran brig.. the Agony Booth.. his facial reactions read as someone horrified to see what humans could be capable of, in a mirror darkly, if you pardon the pun

What i will say is that Lorca may be formulating some theories of his own

• If the flagship of the empire doesnt look anything like a constitution class ship from the brief shot we see in the trailer, and Lorca may attempt to copy its schematics.. advanced weapons etc
• Its possible we will encounter Lorca Mirror and perhaps he is a better man, who knows.. could be even worse
• it is possible that just as Mirror knew of Prime, that prime, or perhaps Section 31 in the prime, knew of the mirror.. all is possible, with events unseen perhaps

Finally on a funny point that just occurred to me! Remember in DS9s episode 'the emperors new cloak' - which made no sense of course, RE the mirror Universe had cloaking tech already.. but im thinking of Rom's dialogue about everything having to be opposite.. What if section 31 are a LOVELY BUNCH OF LADS over here

Imagine a mirror 31 interrogation?

"Do sit down please, here let me get your coat.. would you like a cup of tea, two sugars you say! of course! Now about all this talk of rebelion and other silly nonsense, its all frightfully silly"

CramCycle

Not all mirror people are the opposites or alternative versions of themselves. The universe has dramatic differences but I always seen it that it was how that universe would influence the people the characters become.

hal9550

CramCycle wrote: »

Not all mirror people are the opposites or alternative versions of themselves. The universe has dramatic differences but I always seen it that it was how that universe would influence the people the characters become.

i understand but just for fun, play it as Rom suggested!

• SAREK is totally irrational, having vulcans charging at terran soldiers wielding spoons
• section 31 in charge of the Terran version of green peace
• The borg appear and stitch people up - You will be repaired and upgraded - RESISTANCE IS FUTILE
• And Khan.. screaming 'Will somebody please think of the CHILDREN'

The_Valeyard

hal9550 wrote: »

i understand but just for fun, play it as Rom suggested!

• SAREK is totally irrational, having vulcans charging at terran soldiers wielding spoons
• section 31 in charge of the Terran version of green peace
• The borg appear and stitch people up - You will be repaired and upgraded - RESISTANCE IS FUTILE
• And Khan.. screaming 'Will somebody please think of the CHILDREN'

Actually there was a mirror version comic where Khan was rational and the good guy

Skedaddle

There are only about 4 more episodes left then it's off 'air' until Season 2 ?

I have to say that having Philippa Georgiou / Michelle Yeoh as the emperor really works! She's a phenomenal actress when she has good material to work with.

Smegging hell

Great episode. I wonder if mirror Spock will be referenced, given mirror Sarek has appeared. Spock and Sarek are presumably on different military sides now (even if they both have beards).

Evade

Smegging hell wrote: »

Great episode. I wonder if mirror Spock will be referenced, given mirror Sarek has appeared. Spock and Sarek are presumably on different military sides now (even if they both have beards).

Assuming Sarek knows about Spock.

Johnny Storm

Most likely the terrorist attack that killed Burnhams actual parents didn't happen in the Mirror universe, due to the different military situation there. So Mirror-Burnham was probably brought up to be "fully human". I wonder how that will play out?

Johnny Storm

hal9550 wrote: »

[*]He was fully prepared to warp back to starbase 43 until stamets said, no il jump us there

IMHO he manipulated Stamets into making that decision

[*]His reaction to the Emperor could easily be described as his reaction, to BURNHAM's reaction, as opposed to anything else.

I thought that too - he was almost scoffing at Burnham's bow to the Emperor

CramCycle

Johnny Storm wrote: »

IMHO he manipulated Stamets into making that decision

Ierally didn't think that. He clearly told him, listen, job done, take a break. Stamets wanted to get it over and doen with. I wonder with the stuff in the episode about the network, had mirror stamets manipulated him, almost making him want to do it like a drug?

I thought that too - he was almost scoffing at Burnham's bow to the Emperor

Is that not part of the act?

Spear

Lorca also had the motive of not losing his command due to Cornwell being recovered alive. He definitely manipulated Stamets and rigged the jump though. It's only unclear if he was escaping Cornwell or if he was returning home. Though they're also not mutually exclusive.

pixelburp

I don't subscribe to Lorca being a Mirror spy, but there is something up: IIRC he didn't directly ask Stamets to jump to the starbase, but Lorca DID select some mysterious 'other' location from his command console. Don't have a screenshot handy, but I'm 99% sure he overrode the destination selection during a zoom-in onto his chair, just before the 'final' jump.