Alternative to 1/2"" copper for heating system -suggestions sought.

NickNickleby

Greetings.
Looking for advice on new installation of central heating. Will be getting a professional, but would like to equip myself with some info before I make specific requests.

I would prefer a system that doesn't have any hidden connections. A bad experience with a leaking compression fitting in an inaccessible location still haunts me.

My idea is to get a system installed using two manifolds - one upstairs and one downstairs. From these I would like flexible pipe run to the rads, continuous runs , with the only physical connections being at the radiator valves and manifold (which will be in cupboards). There'll also be a hot tank with coil, and zone controls. The boiler will be a good brand system condensing boiler, probably Worcester Bosch.

Can anyone suggest a type/brand of pipe for this.

Am I likely to encounter resistance from the plumbing heating engineers to this type of suggestion? Are there genuine engineering reasons for rejecting this type of solution, or would it be a case of guys only wanting to work with familiar materials?

I really would welcome any and all comments.

Thanks in advance. ..

K.Flyer

White Multi-Layer pipe all the way from the manifold and straight into the rad valve would be my suggestion.

NickNickleby

Hi Kflyer,

Thanks for your suggestion.

Would this type of pipe be common enough in Ireland - or is copper with soldered joints still the main method being used here? THe reason I ask, is because I won't know an individual's preferences until he comes to survey. And what I don't want is some guy who uses copper all the time, who then says "ah ok I'll use whatever you want" when he has no experience with it.

A quick search doesn't show up the white multilayer pipe you suggested, although I did find UK suppliers ( assuming I'm looking at the right one - it seems to be aluminium pipe with other layers round the aluminium).

Cheers and thanks for taking the trouble to reply...

TECH85

Hi
Yes manifold setup is very common.
Rolls of pipe come in 100metre coils. Decide where the maifold is going to be located and just run all your pipes to each radiator.
The same can be done for hots colds and mains. You then will end up with zero fittings under the slab.
The only downside is you have a larger volume of water to heat , so make sure and dont skimp on the pipe insulation ! Use armaflex or similar , or pipe in insulation coils can be got , rather than using the cheap grey stuff.

TECH85

Also make sure the piping has an oxygen barrier !!

NickNickleby

Hi Tech85,
Thanks for the pointers. I'll be getting a professional in to do it, so everything I learn here will give me confidence when discussing his/her proposal.

I don't want to come across as some sort of nerd that saw something on the Internet and then started throwing out terms or ideas for the sake of it.

In the main, for me its all about keeping all the joints somewhere visible, so that in the event of a mishap, it'll be quickly spotted and fixed.

So, thanks for taking the trouble to reply.

If you or anyone else has any more ideas to contribute, I'd love to hear them. At some point I suppose its all about getting the professional in and trusting them. So, I'll be trying to get someone based on word-of-mouth.

Cheers

TECH85

NickNickleby wrote: »

Hi Tech85,
Thanks for the pointers. I'll be getting a professional in to do it, so everything I learn here will give me confidence when discussing his/her proposal.

I don't want to come across as some sort of nerd that saw something on the Internet and then started throwing out terms or ideas for the sake of it.



In the main, for me its all about keeping all the joints somewhere visible, so that in the event of a mishap, it'll be quickly spotted and fixed.

So, thanks for taking the trouble to reply.

If you or anyone else has any more ideas to contribute, I'd love to hear them. At some point I suppose its all about getting the professional in and trusting them. So, I'll be trying to get someone based on word-of-mouth.

Cheers

Put up some details of the type of house your building and maybe start a new thread. Look for ideas !
I am a plumber and plenty more on here that can give you advise on different types of systems boilers etc..

Where are you located anyway ?

NickNickleby

Hi Tech58,

Thanks once again for taking an interest.

Actually, my daughter has bought a 3-bed semi. Its in Raheny, built 1970's. Originally it had that old fashioned gas-fired warm air ducts type of heating. No fireplace or chimney. Since then the old heater was taken out, leaving behind an empty concrete cupboard in the kitchen. Above that is the hot tank. There's an old-ish boiler on the kitchen wall, with pipes from it to a manifold in the airing cupboard. In my short visit I couldn't see how the ground floor rads are connected.

The floors are a bit creaky, so floorboards will probably be coming up in places, great opportunity to get other work done!

My suggestion to her is to rip it ALL out and replace it. So my thought is to ensure that if this drastic approach is going to be followed , might as well get the best possible design and materials ,eh? First thing I thought of - leaks under either floor. Hence the white flexi pipe as per previous posts in this thread. THe idea for the manifold came from seeing the one in situ - although it looks like microbore. So, in starting this thread, I am trying to find out if a system using manifolds and flexi pipe is appropriate for a 'normal' heating installation. I know she doesn't want a combi boiler, prefers a tank full of hot water upstairs.

So - and excuse any incorrect use of terminology here - the 'solution' would appear to be:
1. Condensing gas boiler
2. Sealed system
3. 'System' configuration - with new insulated hot water cylinder
4. zoned to control upstairs/downstairs/hot-water (or whatever design will deliver that type of control)
5. joint free runs under all floors.
note about 5 - put up to 2 manifolds to help with distribution.

When I get an understanding of what is possible/desirable/optimal, I'll put some bullet points into an email and send it to her. Its worth pointing that she's like her Dad and doesn't like her Dad interfering :eek:. So I can't be overly specific, but still want to point her in the right direction.

So, its probably straightforward, but want her to be confident talking to the professionals - 'cos sure as shootin' she won't be getting me to talk to them.

Cheers

your help is much appreciated.

glenkeo

Hi the picture is the upstairs manifold for heating and hot water, each pipe feeds a radiator and is controlled by the actuators which are controlled by thermostats in each room. The pipes have only 2 joints which have to be crimped by special tool, for the water there is a cold feed to one manifold and a warm feed to the second and pipes to each sink, shower, and toilet. There is also flow and return pipe to the hot manifold which is on a timer so in the mornings there is hot water at the manifold so you don’t have to run hot water for ages waiting on hot water to get from hot tank which can be a bit away, at the time I did not think there was much need for this but plumber convinced me to put it in and he was 100% correct
https://imgur.com/a/wQ1lL

K.Flyer

NickNickleby wrote: »

Hi Kflyer,

Thanks for your suggestion.

Would this type of pipe be common enough in Ireland - or is copper with soldered joints still the main method being used here? THe reason I ask, is because I won't know an individual's preferences until he comes to survey. And what I don't want is some guy who uses copper all the time, who then says "ah ok I'll use whatever you want" when he has no experience with it.

A quick search doesn't show up the white multilayer pipe you suggested, although I did find UK suppliers ( assuming I'm looking at the right one - it seems to be aluminium pipe with other layers round the aluminium).

Cheers and thanks for taking the trouble to reply...

MultiLayer pipe is easy to obtain and once its installed correctly and not ever damaged its a lifetime job.
Any house heating system refits that I have done over the recent years I have used MultiLayer.
I know there are no connections under the floor, customer knows there are no connections under the floor, everyone is happy and confident about the installation.
All other pipework is then done in copper.

NickNickleby

glenkeo wrote: »

Hi the picture is the upstairs manifold for heating and hot water, each pipe feeds a radiator and is controlled by the actuators which are controlled by thermostats in each room. The pipes have only 2 joints which have to be crimped by special tool, for the water there is a cold feed to one manifold and a warm feed to the second and pipes to each sink, shower, and toilet. There is also flow and return pipe to the hot manifold which is on a timer so in the mornings there is hot water at the manifold so you don’t have to run hot water for ages waiting on hot water to get from hot tank which can be a bit away, at the time I did not think there was much need for this but plumber convinced me to put it in and he was 100% correct
https://imgur.com/a/wQ1lL

Hi Glenkeo,
That picture is awesome! Like the idea of thermostatically controlled actuators.

I appreciate your input (no pun intended:D ). That idea of getting the hot water to the manifold in advance is interesting. I'm always conscious of how much water comes out of my taps before it gets hot . There's no likelihood of my own system being upgraded - its only in 10 years - but its the kind of thing I want my daughter to appreciate when getting the work done.

Also, its good to see that my thoughts on manifolds and flexible pipes wasn't as out of this world as I feared.

Thanks for taking the time to post.

NickNickleby

K.Flyer wrote: »

MultiLayer pipe is easy to obtain and once its installed correctly and not ever damaged its a lifetime job.
Any house heating system refits that I have done over the recent years I have used MultiLayer.
I know there are no connections under the floor, customer knows there are no connections under the floor, everyone is happy and confident about the installation.
All other pipework is then done in copper.

Hello again kflyer!

Once again, thanks for taking the time to pass on your advice, your post reassures me that such an approach is an established practice nowadays. That relieves my anxiety about telling my daughter to ask for a specific type of pipe. (something I hadn't made clear in my original post, apologies, I was trying to be concise. not really my forte as you can see!!).

So now, I just make the suggestion to her and stand back!!

Thanks for your help!!