Hot Water Valve Not Functioning

skerry

Seeking some advice from the knowledgeable folks on here again. 

I have a 3 zone heating system (oil). I have noticed that the Honeywell motorosed valve on the hot water zone isn't functioning when I turn the stat which is a standard temp dial stat with no programming function (Telford iStat). The previous owner has the valve head turned to Manual On and it has been this way since I moved into the house. 

My problem with the above is that is seems the hot water is constantly calling for heat now with the valve open all the time. I left the heat on last night and despite the upstairs and downstairs zones reaching their set temp, the boiler is coming on every few minutes over the night and is producing way more hot water than I need and wasting energy. I'm guessing that this is because the valve being always open it is calling for heat the whole time. 

I have tried switch the valve from Manual Open to auto and there was a bit of a thump in the pipe, I'm guessing this is pressure build up probably better off to do this when system is cold?

I'm ordering a replacement valve head but, in the meantime, I want to set the current valve so that its not constantly calling for heat if this is possible and maybe open it as I need hot water. 

I just have a few questions about this: 

1 - Is it safe/ possible to leave valve on auto and switch to manual open as I need hot water. 

2 - Will I see an improvement in the heating in the upstairs and downstairs zones once this valve is replaced and functioning correctly as the rads downstairs don't seem to be putting out a lot of heat compared to upstairs.

3 - I've been told that the Syncron Motor can be replaced easily enough (would probably get sparky to do this). Does anyone know if I'm better off going this route or just ordering replacement valve head altogether. 

I have attached pics of valve and current setting. 
Advice appreciated as always. Boiler firing every few minutes is wrecking my head.

K.Flyer

There is a possibility that there is an issue with the auxiliary switch in the valve and it is keeping the boiler on, even when the valve is closed, which is why it may have been left open.
You will need to check the grey and orange wires are switching continuity on / off depending on the valve position. (Presuming its wired correctly)
You need to be careful as the grey / orange wire may be 220 volt live switching.
Use a multimeter or get someone who knows and understands heating controls.

skerry

K.Flyer wrote: »

There is a possibility that there is an issue with the auxiliary switch in the valve and it is keeping the boiler on, even when the valve is closed, which is why it may have been left open.
You will need to check the grey and orange wires are switching continuity on / off depending on the valve position. (Presuming its wired correctly)
You need to be careful as the grey / orange wire may be 220 volt live switching.
Use a multimeter or get someone who knows and understands heating controls.

Thanks, wouldn't be too well up on these things and only learning as I go along so not sure about tooling around with it myself. Alternative is to get a spark to check it which I'll be charged for.

Thinking I'll go ahead and order replacement motor as, given my experience of the house so far, it's probably knackered and the previous owner didn't bother getting it fixed. At least if I have replacement motor and spark checks the one that installed at the moment I'll have one on hand he could install there and then. Worst case is I'll end up having a spare if the current one turns out to be fixable.

Was just wondering if there is a way I can manually operate it in the meantime to stop it calling for heat constantly.

K.Flyer

Probably easier to just turn the boiler on and off at the boiler itself until you have someone look at it.

skerry

K.Flyer wrote: »

Probably easier to just turn the boiler on and off at the boiler itself until you have someone look at it.

Thats what I had been doing until the last two nights when it got very cold. Only problem with that is on the cold nights the childs room gets too cold over the course of the night so need to have it on topping up the heat on those nights.

Dardania

Is there a system bypass type valve like one of these: https://www.plumbparts.co.uk/product-category/controls/bypass-valves/ ?

Not all oil boilers come with this, and the valve may have been left in manual to provide a flow route back to the boiler

skerry

Dardania wrote: »

Is there a system bypass type valve like one of these: https://www.plumbparts.co.uk/product-category/controls/bypass-valves/ ?

Not all oil boilers come with this, and the valve may have been left in manual to provide a flow route back to the boiler

Haven't seen anything like that. Will have a closer look when I get home. If that was the case would they have bothered installing a motorised valve in the first place?

skerry

Dardania wrote: »

Is there a system bypass type valve like one of these: https://www.plumbparts.co.uk/product-category/controls/bypass-valves/ ?

Not all oil boilers come with this, and the valve may have been left in manual to provide a flow route back to the boiler

Don't suppose this is the same thing? If not, do you know what this is and what function it serves?

Edit: After 20 minutes of searching Google images for what it is, I find out its an air valve 30 seconds after asking question here, typical.

Dardania

That's an air vent, to allow expulsion of air during filling.

The system bypass is usually internal in gas boilers and in some oil boilers. There is a possibility that whoever fitted the automatic valves did not realise they needed a bypass, so to get around the problem they just left the hot water cylinder valve open.

skerry

Dardania wrote: »

That's an air vent, to allow expulsion of air during filling.

The system bypass is usually internal in gas boilers and in some oil boilers. There is a possibility that whoever fitted the automatic valves did not realise they needed a bypass, so to get around the problem they just left the hot water cylinder valve open.

Sound, I'll have a proper snoop around later to see if I can identify the bypass valve. Would it be located anywhere else other than close to the boiler?

Hope there is one there as with the valve open the whole time I reckon I'm wasting a heap of oil heating hot water I don't need and boiler is firing every few minutes heating more.

Ordered new Honeywell valve in the meantime

Dardania

From a system perspective, it should be downstream of the circulation pump, and upstream of the zone valves. Physically, that could be anywhere from boiler to hot press unfortunately

skerry

Dardania wrote: »

From a system perspective, it should be downstream of the circulation pump, and upstream of the zone valves. Physically, that could be anywhere from boiler to hot press unfortunately

Sound, I'll have a look around the pump area and in the hotpress also. Thanks for the advice

skerry

K.Flyer wrote: »

There is a possibility that there is an issue with the auxiliary switch in the valve and it is keeping the boiler on, even when the valve is closed, which is why it may have been left open.
You will need to check the grey and orange wires are switching continuity on / off depending on the valve position. (Presuming its wired correctly)
You need to be careful as the grey / orange wire may be 220 volt live switching.
Use a multimeter or get someone who knows and understands heating controls.

Just had a peek inside the junction box there and it looks like the grey and orange wired are not connected at all. I seen another thread here where a poster was saying that its common for these wires to be cut or not used.

Any idea if this is the issue or what effect this has. Earth, neutral and live are all connected.

K.Flyer

skerry wrote: »

Just had a peek inside the junction box there and it looks like the grey and orange wired are not connected at all. I seen another thread here where a poster was saying that its common for these wires to be cut or not used.

Any idea if this is the issue or what effect this has. Earth, neutral and live are all connected.

If these wires are not being used then the system has not been wired up correctly, but if your boiler has only developed this issue then those wires are not your problem.
The boiler is getting a signal or power from somewhere, maybe its an issue with the time clock not switching off properly.

skerry

K.Flyer wrote: »

If these wires are not being used then the system has not been wired up correctly, but if your boiler has only developed this issue then those wires are not your problem.
The boiler is getting a signal or power from somewhere, maybe its an issue with the time clock not switching off properly.

We only moved into the house a few weeks ago so boiler has been like this since we moved in.

So can the valve not function correctly if the grey and orange wires are not connected? Any idea on what's involved in getting it wired correctly, apart from connecting the wires what else would need to be done?

Apologies I'm new to this and just trying to figure it out as I see issues

K.Flyer

When these systems are set up correctly the grey and orange wires are used for switching the boiler on and off.
I come across quite a lot of systems incorrectly wired up, often it doesn't take too much to rectify them, but some can be quite a bit of work.
Obviously yours has been done wrong, but it may have worked previously, but in a rudimentary fashion. I wonder what else may be wrong with it?

skerry

K.Flyer wrote: »

When these systems are set up correctly the grey and orange wires are used for switching the boiler on and off.
I come across quite a lot of systems incorrectly wired up, often it doesn't take too much to rectify them, but some can be quite a bit of work.
Obviously yours has been done wrong, but it may have worked previously, but in a rudimentary fashion. I wonder what else may be wrong with it?

Thanks again for the info. So what functionality should the valve serve when these wires aren't allowing it to switch the boiler on and off? Or is it pointless having one unless this it sorted and can be wired up properly.

Builder owened the house previously which at the start we thought would be a good thing. Realising now he was either fancied his hand at a bit of everything in the house and feiced a lot of stuff up or hired some crappy tradesmen.

Trying to get the system working as efficiently as possible and want to get a few smart stats etc for better control but not much point until I get things like this sorted first

K.Flyer

If, as in your earlier post, it was stuck in the manual on position, and with no grey orange function, it may as well have been a straight pipe.
In order to determine how well the system can be controlled, both the electrical side and the pipework need to be looked at together as one.
It most likely is only a case of some rewiring, but you need someone who has an understanding of how it should all work as a whole in order to get the best from the sysrem.

skerry

K.Flyer wrote: »

If, as in your earlier post, it was stuck in the manual on position, and with no grey orange function, it may as well have been a straight pipe.
In order to determine how well the system can be controlled, both the electrical side and the pipework need to be looked at together as one.
It most likely is only a case of some rewiring, but you need someone who has an understanding of how it should all work as a whole in order to get the best from the sysrem.

Cool, thanks a million for all the info. I have a plumber coming out Wednesday to do another job so will get him to have a look and tell me whats possible from a pipework perspective and then arrange a spark to hopefully get it wired up properly.

skerry

K.Flyer wrote: »

If, as in your earlier post, it was stuck in the manual on position, and with no grey orange function, it may as well have been a straight pipe.
In order to determine how well the system can be controlled, both the electrical side and the pipework need to be looked at together as one.
It most likely is only a case of some rewiring, but you need someone who has an understanding of how it should all work as a whole in order to get the best from the sysrem.

Just a quick final question on this.

I'm pretty sure last week when I turned the stat for the upstairs and downstairs zone off that the boiler was still turning on and off. I had presumed that with both stats off the only other thing that could be firing the boiler was the hot water zone.

If the grey and orange wires are not connected is this even possible? Or is it able to fire the boiler somehow because the valve is in the manual open position. And if not this then what the hell is firing my boiler

K.Flyer

Check to see if cylinder stat interacts with the cylinder zone valve and the boiler by turning it fully up or down.
Also check if there is a frost stat out in the boiler house, may look like a white box with a cable going into it.

skerry

K.Flyer wrote: »

Just a thought, is there a thermostat on your hot water cylinder?
If so, check to see if it interacts with the cylinder zone valve and the boiler by turning it fully up or down.

Yes there is a thermostat on the cylinder. I tried messing around with it last week and turning it up and down doesn't result in any reaction from the zone valve so that's why I was thinking the valve was knackered and needed replacing. Also there is zero effect on hot water temp from turning the stat down, water is still very hot.

My thoughts were that, if the valve wasn't responding to the stat and closing the valve when temp was reached, that this is why it was left in manually open and this in turn was what was causing the boiler to fire every few minutes cos it was calling for heat the whole time.

There's a good possibility I'm not entirely correct in that but that was my layman's view of what was going on from the tooling around I was doing with the system to date.

Edit: forgot to mention that I turned the zone valve from manual on, back to auto before seeing if there was any response from turning the stat up and down