Flawed engineer report

angello90

Hi,

A friend of my bought an oldish house back in November 2016. The report from the engineer came through with no issues. In Decemeber his electric shower failed, so he had a plumber over to have a look.

The electric shower is dead but there are more severe problems. As it turns out, the electric shower is on the same circuit breaker as the entire wiring for the bathroom. There is no on/off switch for the shower. The only way to turn off the shower is to flip the circuit breaker. The plumber said that is against the regulation, so that will need to be fixed. Moreover another issue is that the electric cable that runs from mains to the electric shower is only 1mm in diameter, which as far as I know is not capable of sustaining the current needs of the shower. So that most likely will need to be fixed too - sounds like fire hazard to me.

Now the thing is that engineer didn't specify that in his report. I know it's impossible to expect the engineer to outline the wrong cable that supplies the electric shower, but I think he should have caught that the circuit breakers are outside of regulations. What do you think?

If the above statement is correct, could he sue the company for missing this information in the report?

Cheers for your inputs.

ZENER

Get a RECI certified electrician to have a proper look around. If the shower is fed with a 1mm cable (highly doubt it's that small as it would have burnt out well before now) and no local isolator then who knows what other nasties are waiting.

Ken

Fighting Tao

Are all engineers electricians these days?

angello90

I had a look at the cable cause I couldn't believe it myself, and it is 1mm. The ground cable that runs into the electric shower doesn't even have lamination on it. It's exactly the same as the one below:

listermint

Engineers would not check they for a house survey, it's the wrong tree to be barking up.

No there is no come back. Get reci to sort it.

Gumbo

angello90 wrote: »

Hi,

A friend of my bought an oldish house back in November 2016. The report from the engineer came through with no issues. In Decemeber his electric shower failed, so he had a plumber over to have a look.

The electric shower is dead but there are more severe problems. As it turns out, the electric shower is on the same circuit breaker as the entire wiring for the bathroom. There is no on/off switch for the shower. The only way to turn off the shower is to flip the circuit breaker. The plumber said that is against the regulation, so that will need to be fixed. Moreover another issue is that the electric cable that runs from mains to the electric shower is only 1mm in diameter, which as far as I know is not capable of sustaining the current needs of the shower. So that most likely will need to be fixed too - sounds like fire hazard to me.

Now the thing is that engineer didn't specify that in his report. I know it's impossible to expect the engineer to outline the wrong cable that supplies the electric shower, but I think he should have caught that the circuit breakers are outside of regulations. What do you think?

If the above statement is correct, could he sue the company for missing this information in the report?

Cheers for your inputs.

I don’t think any visual house pre purchase survey would have picked this up unless it was clearly obvious.

The electric shower should be wired back t9 the consumer unit alright, but without checking the wiring, the. Survey would not have picked up on this.

Most pre purchase surveys are there to highlight obvious structural issues or damp, or planning issues. Switches would be checked but a brief note would be in the report to state they electrics should be checked by a qualified electrician.

angello90

Cool, thanks guys for advice on that. Seems like he is a bit in a **** hole.
I think he has an electrician sorted for next week.

Anyways thanks lads, happy new year to ye all.

Gumbo

angello90 wrote: »

Cool, thanks guys for advice on that. Seems like he is a bit in a **** hole.
I think he has an electrician sorted for next week.

Anyways thanks lads, happy new year to ye all.

What kind of shower is it?
Is it an electric shower or a power shower as a power shower can be spurred off the standard electric circuit.

Basically, is it a triton that heats the water or is it just a shower that pumps the already hot water from the cylinder.

angello90

kceire wrote: »

What kind of shower is it?
Is it an electric shower or a power shower as a power shower can be spurred off the standard electric circuit.

Basically, is it a triton that heats the water or is it just a shower that pumps the already hot water from the cylinder.

It's an electric shower (Mira), heats up the water as it is pumped - even if there is no hot water in the boiler, there is (or was) hot water coming from the shower.

FinanceDublin

Incredibly this exact same thing has happened to not one but two friends in last year after buying a house. You’d get feeling it’s far more widespread than you think and only a matter of time before something really awful happens. As with them, all you can say is that right now it’s **** and an unwelcome surprise expense, but better to find out now than later.....

Gumbo

angello90 wrote: »

It's an electric shower (Mira), heats up the water as it is pumped - even if there is no hot water in the boiler, there is (or was) hot water coming from the shower.

Yeah in that case it should be fed back to the fuse board and benon it’s own dedicated circuit. It wouldn’t be something I’d activelly look for in a survey but it’s deffo something I would highlight and advise the owner to have a qualified electrician look at it.

ted1

angello90 wrote: »

I had a look at the cable cause I couldn't believe it myself, and it is 1mm. The ground cable that runs into the electric shower doesn't even have lamination on it. It's exactly the same as the one below:

Looks like 2.5 T and E. Is it just pumped ir diesit heat the water too?

GavMan

ted1 wrote: »

Looks like 2.5 T and E. Is it just pumped ir diesit heat the water too?

If you read the thread, you will see it is a Mira that heats the water

Mr. teddywinkles

angello90 wrote: »

I had a look at the cable cause I couldn't believe it myself, and it is 1mm. The ground cable that runs into the electric shower doesn't even have lamination on it. It's exactly the same as the one below:

Looks like 1.5mm2. Engineers are only structural. Do not even remotely look at services. 10mm2 or 6mm2 min for electric shower depending on wattage. 8k to 10k. Earth should be sleeved.

Sleeper12

Ha a read of the report. It will suggest that a separate electric report would be a good idea or something about the age of the house and that it would be a good idea to rewire. These are standard things to put in the report. The engineer can't take the cover off the fusebox nor would you expect them to look inside an electric shower. I don't think the engineer can be blamed here.

You need to get a REC to inspect all the wiring and possibly rewire the whole house.

ZENER

I don't think the OP has posted a photo of the actual cable installed. Just a picture of what it looked like. A 9KW shower running off a 1.5mm T&E would have been noticed long before now I think. The cable wouldn't look that clean for one thing.

As for the engineers survey, wouldn't they have highlighted if a property required rewiring or if a consumer unit wasn't up to current standards ? Is it an old property OP ?

Ken

Sleeper12

I see it's a Mire shower. Mira also do power showers that only require 1.5mm cable.

OP what model Mira shower is it?

LirW

I've been in a very similar situation, our surveyor couldn't be arsed doing a proper survey (I got a 2-page survey...) and convinced me it's all grand.
They won't give a detailed opinion on electrical or plumbing unfortunately, that's on you to get someone in to do that. Now that he's bought the house, get a reci electrician to check the whole wiring, if the Electric shower is messed up it's probably quite important to see if there's other grotty work.
We ended up rewiring the house because it was a mess. At least it's done properly now, I've been around for the process and have a cert for it.

He should get a plumber in too to get the plumbing checked, if the previous owner was a bit of a DIY enthusiast there might be a lot that's in sh1te.

angello90

It's a Mira Sport, but I don't know the actual model number.

I don't expect the engineer to check wiring behind the walls. It does make sense that they are doing predominantly structural survey, but I always thought that the check is a requirement for bank to be assured in case something may go wrong. I this case something may go wrong, but the bank already gave a green flag on the purchase.

I mean in case of this causing a fire (knock on the wood), would insurance pay up the money for the damages, or could they reject a claim since shower was never connected as outlined per regulations? Would my friend be left with burned down house, and a mortgage to pay? The health/electrocution risk is another thing.

As for the wire itself, that's just a reference picture, not the actual cable. It was more to help me explain the fact that the earth wire is not isolated. There is a chance that the wire is 1.5mm, I didn't measure it, but most definitely it is not a correct cable.

My friend told me that the house is from 1960/1970s.

Any idea what that might cost? I know it's impossible to answer that sort of a question without looking at the job, but maybe a ballpark figure spread? Would that be in couple hundreds or couple thousands?

TheBully

It’s a civil engineer that you have paid to do a structural report.
If you want a report on your electrics then get an electrician but all the banks require is a structural report.
I would not expect a civil engineer to have any idea about cable sizing or plumbing.

davo10

Op, have you actually seen the report, or are you just hearing about it?

I've seen a lot of property surveys and all of them include a paragraph/disclaimer about the report not being exhaustive and not covering hidden items like electrics and plumbing. For those, as others have pointed out, you need an electrician/plumber.

Sleeper12

As I said earlier I can't see what the engineer could have found without removing the fusebox cover & the shower cover. I just don't see how it's a flawed report.

angello90

I saw the report, it is 3 pages long, 1st page is a picture of the house with it's address. It's a complete pile of useless crap. There was no disclaimers in the report, but having said that, maybe he didn't show me all of it. Perhaps there were some disclaimers on pages I didn't see. Not going to speculate.

I asked if they can be blamed, if they should point out obvious safety hazards such as lack of the circuit breaker, and if so, can they be held responsible of not including this information in the report. The answer is no, and that's fine, in this case report is not flawed.

What really struck me is that the house should have certificates prior to purchase. In my case when I bought a house, my engineering company checked all the certificates that my solicitor had received from the developer from whom I was purchasing my house. Although I paid significantly more for my engineer, I thought it is part of the engineer's report/job.

I am not blaming civil engineers here, lads. Just going by what I experience myself while buying a house.

As for bank only requiring the structural report, not being interested in the electrical report, that is a bit of a joke to me, but I suppose you got to look after yourself.

Sleeper12

The bank only want to know that the building wont fall down during the lifetime of the mortgage. They only send out a surveyor & a complete waste of money imo.

An engineer is the job imo but what you get is reflected in what you pay. You shouldn't go with the cheapest quote. You should see proof of their insurance & membership of their governing body. The term Engineer is far reaching. Sky TV will send out an Engineer to install your satellite. He'll have done a 12 week training course & wont be an Engineer that you could get to look at the structure of your house.

An engineer wont remove fusebox covers or even sockets to examine wireing. There are no certs from the 70s & 80s so your friend couldn't expect any. If I bought a house from the 70s I'd budget for a rewire anyway. Electric showers installed 20 years ago usually wouldn't meet todays standards. Cable size would usually be too small (not as small as your friend though) & the shower most likely wouldn't have a RCBO. I'd always be worried about some diy sockets added by previous owner. Regardless what my engineers report said I'd have to get a REC in to give it a once over for my peace of mind

ted1

angello90 wrote: »

I saw the report, it is 3 pages long, 1st page is a picture of the house with it's address. It's a complete pile of useless crap. There was no disclaimers in the report, but having said that, maybe he didn't show me all of it. Perhaps there were some disclaimers on pages I didn't see. Not going to speculate.

I asked if they can be blamed, if they should point out obvious safety hazards such as lack of the circuit breaker, and if so, can they be held responsible of not including this information in the report. The answer is no, and that's fine, in this case report is not flawed.

What really struck me is that the house should have certificates prior to purchase. In my case when I bought a house, my engineering company checked all the certificates that my solicitor had received from the developer from whom I was purchasing my house. Although I paid significantly more for my engineer, I thought it is part of the engineer's report/job.

I am not blaming civil engineers here, lads. Just going by what I experience myself while buying a house.

As for bank only requiring the structural report, not being interested in the electrical report, that is a bit of a joke to me, but I suppose you got to look after yourself.

Op if you bought your house and had developer certs I imagine that it’s a newish build. This house is from the 60/70s building regs were different and the shower was installed post build by possible a previous owner, a tradesman or a cowboy

seamus

angello90 wrote: »

I don't expect the engineer to check wiring behind the walls. It does make sense that they are doing predominantly structural survey, but I always thought that the check is a requirement for bank to be assured in case something may go wrong. I this case something may go wrong, but the bank already gave a green flag on the purchase.

The purpose of the survey for the bank is (to quote a surveyor) to make sure the property exists and someone can live it in it. It ensures for the bank's sake that there is collateral there.
The safety of that collateral is less important since you will have insurance on it anyway. So the bank doesn't care if everything is RECI certified or if the boiler hasn't been serviced in ten years. If the house burns down, the insurance will protect the house's collateral.

If you got a proper engineer in (would have cost you the guts of €500), then their job is to identify any glaring problems with the house, issues which require urgent or immediate repair and are likely to cost you a lot of money.

They will sometimes look under and behind objects, but rarely so so far as unscrewing things from walls or whatever.

A miswired shower is not really a major or a glaring issue in any case. The effort required for an engineer to verify the wiring of every appliance and every socket would be enormous.

angello90

Sleeper12 wrote: »

The bank only want to know that the building wont fall down during the lifetime of the mortgage. They only send out a surveyor & a complete waste of money imo.

An engineer is the job imo but what you get is reflected in what you pay. You shouldn't go with the cheapest quote. You should see proof of their insurance & membership of their governing body. The term Engineer is far reaching. Sky TV will send out an Engineer to install your satellite. He'll have done a 12 week training course & wont be an Engineer that you could get to look at the structure of your house.

An engineer wont remove fusebox covers or even sockets to examine wireing. There are no certs from the 70s & 80s so your friend couldn't expect any. If I bought a house from the 70s I'd budget for a rewire anyway. Electric showers installed 20 years ago usually wouldn't meet todays standards. Cable size would usually be too small (not as small as your friend though) & the shower most likely wouldn't have a RCBO. I'd always be worried about some diy sockets added by previous owner. Regardless what my engineers report said I'd have to get a REC in to give it a once over for my peace of mind

I wasn't aware that houses from 70s and 80s don't require certs. That would explain some of the things.

Gumbo

angello90 wrote: »

I saw the report, it is 3 pages long, 1st page is a picture of the house with it's address. It's a complete pile of useless crap. There was no disclaimers in the report, but having said that, maybe he didn't show me all of it. Perhaps there were some disclaimers on pages I didn't see. Not going to speculate.

I asked if they can be blamed, if they should point out obvious safety hazards such as lack of the circuit breaker, and if so, can they be held responsible of not including this information in the report. The answer is no, and that's fine, in this case report is not flawed.

What really struck me is that the house should have certificates prior to purchase. In my case when I bought a house, my engineering company checked all the certificates that my solicitor had received from the developer from whom I was purchasing my house. Although I paid significantly more for my engineer, I thought it is part of the engineer's report/job.

I am not blaming civil engineers here, lads. Just going by what I experience myself while buying a house.

As for bank only requiring the structural report, not being interested in the electrical report, that is a bit of a joke to me, but I suppose you got to look after yourself.

You bought a new house. The difference is night and day. Its like buying a second hand car privately V buying a new car from a dealer. One is bought as seen, once comes with warranty etc

angello90 wrote: »

I wasn't aware that houses from 70s and 80s don't require certs. That would explain some of the things.

Building Regulations only commenced in 1992.
We had Building Bye Laws before then.

Eric Cartman

1) unsheathed earth in that kind of cable was actually fine until this year. wouldn't worry about that

2) if the shower isn't a heater shower (just a pump) that cable is adequate and while not best practice, the amount of them that would be spurred off a socket ring would surprise you , especially if done in the late 80s / early 90s nobody would have batted an eyelid at it.

3) A structural survey engineer never would have ever picked this up, nor been asked to.

4) if running one cable and having a new isolated breaker for the shower is all thats wrong with the house id be counting myself lucky. Engineers reports make sure you're not looking at a 5, 10, 50k bill , this is less than 1k to fix all in, new shower included.

L1011

angello90 wrote: »

I wasn't aware that houses from 70s and 80s don't require certs. That would explain some of the things.

I've an engineering compliance certificate for a 1972 build (cert from 72 that is). Varies hugely prior to modern regs

mickdw

TheBully wrote: »

It’s a civil engineer that you have paid to do a structural report.
If you want a report on your electrics then get an electrician but all the banks require is a structural report.
I would not expect a civil engineer to have any idea about cable sizing or plumbing.

I am an Engineer who surveys houses. It would be lunacy to comment other than suggesting that the installation should be checked by professional.
I wouldnt go any further than look to see if its a modern consumer unit or old fuse box and check date at meter just for some background info.
If I was to comment that electrics appear to be in reasonable condition, i would be leaving myself wide open because im neither qualified or insured to form such opinions.
Likewise with plumbing, i would just include similar covering statement.