First chape tax now chape motoring

AhHaor

Ok, so maybe this should be in EV section, if so please move.

But over the last 10 or so years, I've always laughed when I hear people say they upgraded to new(er) car to save on the tax. Typically 710 vs 390 odd. Especially as the majority didn't do the mileage or the type of driving that suited diesel.

However here's where I'm struggling. I'm driving 08 2L petrol and doing 50 km a day on motorway and 100 odd at the weekend ~ 17,000 km for the year. So not definitively into diesel. However, having looked at the Leaf and a 131 second hand one costing 9k I'm beginning to wonder If I should move to an EV. But the reason I'm looking to move is the cheap tax and almost free "fuel". It looks like a 2200 euro a year saving. So I'm making a saving after 3-4 years, assuming other consumables are equivalent.

Here's the question, am I just like all the diesel sheep from post 08 or is this genuinely a good reason to go to an EV.

twin_beacon

I'm no expert in electric cars, but from my limited knowledge here's my 2 cents.
You probably would save money, but I would have a few concerns about a 5 year old leaf. The life span of an electric car is shorter than a regular car, and they lose their value much faster. If you want to trade in the Leaf in 2-3 years, the trade in value may not be great.

Although 17k km per year isn't high mileage, the style of driving (50km at a time) means diesel would work for you too. Hybrid would be worth a look too.

jprboy

Yes, probably should be in the EV forum, will get good advice over there.

Yes, the fuel savings are considerable and annual tax of €120 alone would be a saving of close to €600 for you each year.

I'd avoid a 131 Leaf. This has the first generation battery which degrades much faster than the next generation battery which made an appearance in later 132 models and onwards.

Do you have off-street parking? The reason I ask is that home charging is a must and can be difficult to arrange if you park on street or in an apartment complex.

AhHaor

Yeah, full off street parking. So no issue getting a charge and have 8 charging points in work for about 15 EV cars.

Alanstrainor

Moved to the EV forum.

jprboy

AhHaor wrote: »

Yeah, full off street parking. So no issue getting a charge and have 8 charging points in work for about 15 EV cars.

Nice! Practically no fuel costs then as you'll be able to do nearly all your charging at work and the public chargers for when you're away from work/home are free (for now).

Have a look at the various online prices for 2nd hand Leafs both here and in the UK - can be worth importing if you're willing to do the leg work.

goz83

twin_beacon wrote: »

I'm no expert in electric cars, but from my limited knowledge here's my 2 cents.
You probably would save money, but I would have a few concerns about a 5 year old leaf. The life span of an electric car is shorter than a regular car, and they lose their value much faster. If you want to trade in the Leaf in 2-3 years, the trade in value may not be great.

Although 17k km per year isn't high mileage, the style of driving (50km at a time) means diesel would work for you too. Hybrid would be worth a look too.

I'm no expert either, but you're very wrong about most of what you said.

The OP would of course save money. Since his first post, we have learned that he has access to home and work charging, which is almost essential (the home part anyway) to own and use an EV comfortably.

EVs by and large haven't shown to depreciate any quicker than their equivalent petrol/diesel counterparts. In fact, with the battery pack being worth 5k plus, you won't see an EV hitting the bottom like an ICE does. The vast majority of cars lose half their value after 3 years. That's just the way it is.

The life span of an EV will likely far exceed the lifespan of an ICE. Battery cells are replaceable if/when they reach a level they are no longer practical. The battery tech is also improving very quickly and it's getting cheaper all the time. I have a 2012 Leaf and it has lost only 1 out of 12 battery bars. I drive for cents per day and love it.

Diesel is a dying breed. in 2-3 years, a new diesel today will be very uncertain for second hand buyers and that will hurt resale alot. Hybrid is a band-aid....especially the diesel ones.

KCross

AhHaor wrote: »

Ok, so maybe this should be in EV section, if so please move.

But over the last 10 or so years, I've always laughed when I hear people say they upgraded to new(er) car to save on the tax. Typically 710 vs 390 odd. Especially as the majority didn't do the mileage or the type of driving that suited diesel.

However here's where I'm struggling. I'm driving 08 2L petrol and doing 50 km a day on motorway and 100 odd at the weekend ~ 17,000 km for the year. So not definitively into diesel. However, having looked at the Leaf and a 131 second hand one costing 9k I'm beginning to wonder If I should move to an EV. But the reason I'm looking to move is the cheap tax and almost free "fuel". It looks like a 2200 euro a year saving. So I'm making a saving after 3-4 years, assuming other consumables are equivalent.

Here's the question, am I just like all the diesel sheep from post 08 or is this genuinely a good reason to go to an EV.

AhHaor wrote: »

Yeah, full off street parking. So no issue getting a charge and have 8 charging points in work for about 15 EV cars.

With home and work charging you will have no issues. You will have effectively free motoring apart from the €120 motor tax as you can get 70% of your fuel free at work. Are the work chargers available/free everyday for you to use?

Whatever you are spending on petrol now will be money in your pocket and don't worry about depreciation as the majority of it is already gone if you are buying a 3yr+ car. The savings in fuel will more than make up for it and in any case the depreciation is not as bad as they say anymore.

Also check out the new €600 home charge grant which should cover 90%+ of the costs of installing one. Maybe 100% if you know a good spark:

https://www.seai.ie/grants/electric-vehicle-grants/electric-vehicle-home-charger-grant/

I'd second the advice to go for a 132 or later. The battery its better and some other kinks have been ironed out as well (electronic handbrake and PTC heater gave trouble in the Gen 1 cars and cost a lot to fix out of warranty)


You did mention you do 100km at the weekend.... is that over the 2 days or each day?
There are two Leaf's... 24kWh and 30kWh.
24kWh will comfortably do 100-120km @ 100 km/h
30kWh will do 160-180km.

Both will do less than that on the motorway @ 120 km/h

It is also preferable to get a Leaf with 6.6kW AC charging. The standard is 3.3kW. By having the 6.6kW it mean you will charge the car twice as fast when you are at home and work (<4hrs vs 8hrs from 0-100%).

If buying, watch the rear tyre wear. Some Leaf's wear the tyres unevenly (outside of the tyre wearing more than the inside). It can be anything from perfect to 20-30% out resulting in early tyre wear on the rear so eyeball the tyres before buying. The fix is to replace the rear axle which isn't cheap either and can be done under warranty if the car is still in warranty.

AhHaor

Hadn't even looked into getting grant for the house, just assumed I'd have to fully cover it. The weekend 100 km is going to be a 35 round trip and then misc 30 km typically.

I'm really swaying towards an EV. It seems as long as you keep to sub 100 km/day you're likely going to benefit.

KCross

AhHaor wrote: »

Hadn't even looked into getting grant for the house, just assumed I'd have to fully cover it. The weekend 100 km is going to be a 35 round trip and then misc 30 km typically.

I'm really swaying towards an EV. It seems as long as you keep to sub 100 km/day you're likely going to benefit.

If you are regularly doing more than 100km/day then get the 30kWh version. It only came out in 161 so you'd have to up the budget for that.

If less than 100km/day then yes you are perfect for a 24kWh Leaf.

Get one on loan for a few days and try your commute and that will make up your mind for you. It will be a revelation!

twin_beacon

goz83 wrote: »

I'm no expert either, but you're very wrong about most of what you said.

The OP would of course save money. Since his first post, we have learned that he has access to home and work charging, which is almost essential (the home part anyway) to own and use an EV comfortably.

that wasn't in his first post, being able to charge at work for free is a bit of a game changer.

goz83 wrote: »

The life span of an EV will likely far exceed the lifespan of an ICE. Battery cells are replaceable if/when they reach a level they are no longer practical. The battery tech is also improving very quickly and it's getting cheaper all the time. I have a 2012 Leaf and it has lost only 1 out of 12 battery bars. I drive for cents per day and love it.

Diesel is a dying breed. in 2-3 years, a new diesel today will be very uncertain for second hand buyers and that will hurt resale alot. Hybrid is a band-aid....especially the diesel ones.

out of curiosity, what would your annual mileage be?
Replacing a battery pack is very expensive, between €4-5k on a leaf.

The long term future for diesel cars is not good, and they will be eventually be phased out by the manufacturers. In 20 years time, there will still be lots of diesel cars on the roads.

goz83

twin_beacon wrote: »

that wasn't in his first post, being able to charge at work for free is a bit of a game changer.

That's why I said "since his first post".

twin_beacon wrote: »

out of curiosity, what would your annual mileage be?
Replacing a battery pack is very expensive, between €4-5k on a leaf.

My mileage varies but on average it would be circa 10k a year. I have 2 Leafs. a 2012 and 2014. Both would be around the same annual mileage, as they are shared between myself the the OH.

Replacing a full battery pack at the moment would indeed be expensive. But as batteries get cheaper, the cost comes down. The packs were twice as expensive and less efficient when they first came out.

You also wouldn't need to replace a full pack. Individual cells can be replaced. It's not a service offered here yet, but it certainly will be as EVs become more common place.

Very few EVs have needed pack replacement and the ones which needed a pack replacement were generally in hot climates with a lot of rapid charging, or generally poor charging practices. In Ireland, our temperate climate and short driving distances make us an ideal place for the EV.

twin_beacon wrote: »

The long term future for diesel cars is not good, and they will be eventually be phased out by the manufacturers. In 20 years time, there will still be lots of diesel cars on the roads.

In 20 years time, I really don't think there will be lots of Diesel cars on our roads. They will be taxed off the roads long before we get to 20 years and will be as common as a 3 Litre petrol is today in Ireland.

Gumbo

twin_beacon wrote: »

that wasn't in his first post, being able to charge at work for free is a bit of a game changer.



out of curiosity, what would your annual mileage be?
Replacing a battery pack is very expensive, between €4-5k on a leaf.

The long term future for diesel cars is not good, and they will be eventually be phased out by the manufacturers. In 20 years time, there will still be lots of diesel cars on the roads.

The 4-5k is because of the new tech. Look at the cost of the timing chain replacement in BMW’s Diesel engine when that first developed.


OP, when you say you have 8 charge points in Work, are they fully accessible to you as a staff member? I also have about 8 in Work but only 3 are accessible to staff on a first come first served basis as the rest are for company cars/vans.

oinkely

Hey OP - this was my query too when we started out.

The following was my calculation of cost savings vs a relatively thirsty 1.4L petrol Scenic. Note that this is only for the 7077 miles that we did in that car in the previous year. Adding in the zero servicing costs and the tax savings made it a no brainer for us. Wife will never own ICE again either.

Does this look like a sound calculation
Hey folks,

Mad Lad mentioned in another thread that he averages 17.5 KW per 100KM.

Actual mileage 7077 miles = 11323km. Leaf averages 17.5kw per 100km, so 11323/100*17.5=1980KW for that distance. 1980 @ €0.0844 = €167 (night rate). 1980 @ €0.1762 = €348 (day rate).

Actual cost of petrol was a little under €1300, which puts the car in the very thirsty bracket, not helped by lots of traffic and short journeys.

That leaves us with a €900 to €1100 saving on last years mileage. This years will be a lot higher as wifey is back in work and commuting again.

waynegalway

oinkely wrote: »

Hey OP - this was my query too when we started out.

The following was my calculation of cost savings vs a relatively thirsty 1.4L petrol Scenic. Note that this is only for the 7077 miles that we did in that car in the previous year. Adding in the zero servicing costs and the tax savings made it a no brainer for us. Wife will never own ICE again either.

Does this look like a sound calculation
Hey folks,

Mad Lad mentioned in another thread that he averages 17.5 KW per 100KM.

Actual mileage 7077 miles = 11323km. Leaf averages 17.5kw per 100km, so 11323/100*17.5=1980KW for that distance. 1980 @ €0.0844 = €167 (night rate). 1980 @ €0.1762 = €348 (day rate).

Actual cost of petrol was a little under €1300, which puts the car in the very thirsty bracket, not helped by lots of traffic and short journeys.

That leaves us with a €900 to €1100 saving on last years mileage. This years will be a lot higher as wifey is back in work and commuting again.

Those figures are about in line with my experience, although I’d argue that it’s relatively easy to get better than 17.5kW per 100km.....15kW/100km is very do-able.

waynegalway

AhHaor wrote: »

Ok, so maybe this should be in EV section, if so please move.

But over the last 10 or so years, I've always laughed when I hear people say they upgraded to new(er) car to save on the tax. Typically 710 vs 390 odd. Especially as the majority didn't do the mileage or the type of driving that suited diesel.

However here's where I'm struggling. I'm driving 08 2L petrol and doing 50 km a day on motorway and 100 odd at the weekend ~ 17,000 km for the year. So not definitively into diesel. However, having looked at the Leaf and a 131 second hand one costing 9k I'm beginning to wonder If I should move to an EV. But the reason I'm looking to move is the cheap tax and almost free "fuel". It looks like a 2200 euro a year saving. So I'm making a saving after 3-4 years, assuming other consumables are equivalent.

Here's the question, am I just like all the diesel sheep from post 08 or is this genuinely a good reason to go to an EV.

Hi OP

I compiled a list of questions and answers when I was researching buying my LEAF. If you have 5-10 minutes, you might find it useful as a starting point:

https://wp.me/P6u5qR-5N

Wayne

Turbohymac

Well. Ahhoar I disagree that diesels will be gone in 20 years or so.. maybe more hybrids around but just take a moment to calculate the tax intake by the government on diesel &petrol . If your prediction is correct well smoking would have ended back in the 80s. .excess alcohol use etc would all be a distant memory but far too much tax would be lost . Anyhow electric vehicles still have a long way to compare to any half decent diesel. Or even petrol.. if you believe everything that the lads with money to throw away over in the EV thread claims about their electric short ranged .overpriced and rapid depreciating cars and the negativity they use towards diesels & petrols then we might actually all be fooled into swapping over to evs
However while they carry out a very limited role currently it will be many years before the savvy motorist changes over.. even the ev lads still claim that some of them only use their. (Durty diesels for the longer runs) if the evs were so fecking brilliant they might have a 1000km range between fuel ups like my old 2 litre van

unkel

Not gonna feed that troll ^^^ anyway

twin_beacon wrote: »

out of curiosity, what would your annual mileage be?
Replacing a battery pack is very expensive, between €4-5k on a leaf.

It's gonna be the other way around. All EVs these days come with an 8 year warranty on the battery. And it is far more likely that the battery will still be fine (but gone down in capacity to maybe 90% or 80%) after 10 or 15 years or whenever the rest of the car is end of life. And a normal car is worth €50 when you scrap it, but an EV will be worth at least a grand, maybe more. The batteries will be taken out of the car and re-used as grid storage or home storage.

My EV bought early 2017 cost €25k on the road. About the same as any other budget petrol / diesel car of its size. The depreciation on my EV will be lower than that on a comparable petrol / diesel, I've no doubt about it and you can quote me on that. Every year from now on if you want.

Soarer

Don't think anyone else has mentioned it OP, but I'd be looking at a 132-141 Leaf. They have the newer (better) battery. Same 24kWh capacity.

waynegalway

Soarer wrote: »

Don't think anyone else has mentioned it OP, but I'd be looking at a 132-141 Leaf. They have the newer (better) battery. Same 24kWh capacity.

Some of the older gen ones were registered in late 2013 and even early 2014, so I’d recommend a 142 at least.

Orebro

waynegalway wrote: »

Some of the older gen ones were registered in late 2013 and even early 2014, so I’d recommend a 142 at least.

It's simple to tell the difference between the old and new battery version with a couple of visual checks - so I would go from 132 onwards.

goz83

The vast majority of the 141 models are 1.5 gen, so that's where I would look. The eco button on the steering wheel is the easiest sign of a 1.5 gen model. The trickier thing is finding the 6.6 OBC versions and you often have to call the dealer and then get proof. If it shows 2 charging times, it's a 6.6. That's what you want.

waynegalway

Orebro wrote: »

It's simple to tell the difference between the old and new battery version with a couple of visual checks - so I would go from 132 onwards.

Absolutely, chances are a 132 is the newer generation, but those visual checks are important as you can’t rely on number plate alone.

beauf

Turbohymac wrote: »

Well. Ahhoar I disagree that diesels will be gone in 20 years or so.. ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkbyU1qaP-E

I think we will have a mix depending on use.

n97 mini

A simple guide. I had our Leaf granny cable plugged into a smart plug which recorded consumption over a two month period. We only charge at night. Average cost was between 7.50 and 8.00 per month to charge.

A year after we got the car I looked back over the previous 12 months' worth of bills. The figures tally with the smart plug. We spent somewhere between 90 (best case) and 110 (worst case) over the year which amounted to about 10,000km.

The unknown is public charging. We do use the public infrastructure but only when we have to, i.e. on long journeys, which are mostly on the M4 and M6. But at most that would be once a month and at a guess would be 15% of our total distance travelled.

goz83

beauf wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkbyU1qaP-E

I think we will have a mix depending on use.

I think he lost credibility when he mentioned hydrogen as a viable fuel source. There will be a mix, but it will be a tiny amount of ICE.

twin_beacon

unkel wrote: »

My EV bought early 2017 cost €25k on the road. About the same as any other budget petrol / diesel car of its size. The depreciation on my EV will be lower than that on a comparable petrol / diesel, I've no doubt about it and you can quote me on that. Every year from now on if you want.

I don't know about that. Just did a quick look on car zone, compared prices of a Leaf (Market leader EV) against a Golf (comfortline spec) and a Focus (titanium spec). Compared the prices of a new 181, against a similar spec 141 with 30k kms on the clock. The asking price of the 141 was roughly 50% for all 3 models, with the focus being depreciating the least of all 3, but only slightly.

goz83 wrote: »

In 20 years time, I really don't think there will be lots of Diesel cars on our roads. They will be taxed off the roads long before we get to 20 years and will be as common as a 3 Litre petrol is today in Ireland.

For there to be very little diesel cars on the roads in 20 years time, then the production of diesel cars would need to cease in the next 5 years, which is not happening (there are some exceptions, like volvo).
Don't forget politics, from a government point of view, I can't see them pushing for this either, as taxes on petrol and diesel bring in up to €2 billion a year. Taxing a regular family car "off the road" is also a bad move politically. Considering the annual motor tax for a pre 2008 1.9 diesel car is €710, there are still lots of those cars on the road. To tax them off the road, that figure would be much higher. Lots of families will also have 2 cars. Considering the backlash from the water charges movement, I don't think any future government would be willing to take such a risk.

thierry14

twin_beacon wrote: »

I don't know about that. Just did a quick look on car zone, compared prices of a Leaf (Market leader EV) against a Golf (comfortline spec) and a Focus (titanium spec). Compared the prices of a new 181, against a similar spec 141 with 30k kms on the clock. The asking price of the 141 was roughly 50% for all 3 models, with the focus being depreciating the least of all 3, but only slightly.



For there to be very little diesel cars on the roads in 20 years time, then the production of diesel cars would need to cease in the next 5 years, which is not happening (there are some exceptions, like volvo).
Don't forget politics, from a government point of view, I can't see them pushing for this either, as taxes on petrol and diesel bring in up to €2 billion a year. Taxing a regular family car "off the road" is also a bad move politically. Considering the annual motor tax for a pre 2008 1.9 diesel car is €710, there are still lots of those cars on the road. To tax them off the road, that figure would be much higher. Lots of families will also have 2 cars. Considering the backlash from the water charges movement, I don't think any future government would be willing to take such a risk.

Agree

Government should stay the **** out of it until forced

It will take decades to get rid of ICE and rightly so

Not everyone can afford a brand new car and frankly bar Tesla every EV made before 2016 is only fit for scrap as a 10 year old used car for the general public who have an expectation

A 16 24kWh Leaf in 2026 is not that expectation

I think the 60kWh+ cars of 2020 are borderline good enough

2030 should be the end of ICE then

waynegalway

A lot of crystal ball gazing here, so I might as well have a look in mine and let you know what I see.....

In 10 years time there may well be an expectation of better range from an EV, but there will also be a market for older ones. As fossil fuels diminish, petrol/diesel prices will go up, the governments will be under even more pressure to meet carbon emission targets, and people will simply feel that they *have* to make the move to EV.

When that happens, people will want to get on board at various price points. As mentioned, not all will be able to afford a new car. All things being equal, a 2016 LEAF will still have about 70-75% battery capacity after 10 year, and so will still have a range of about 100km (30kwh version). That car will be very saleable to someone who just wants to “get in” to an electric car, and whose driving habits suit that type of range. For the majority of people right now a 100ish range is fine for day-to-day driving, so that’s likely to be the case in 10 years as well.

Just like there’s a market for 10 year old ICE cars now, there will be a market for 10 year old EVs too. In all likelihood, the 10 year old EV market will be stronger then than the 10 year old ICE market now, because more people will have to make the move to EV.

In terms of the government losing revenue, there is potential to recoup at least some of this by the savings in carbon tax and/or revenue from selling carbon tax credits.

thierry14

waynegalway wrote: »

A lot of crystal ball gazing here, so I might as well have a look in mine and let you know what I see.....

In 10 years time there may well be an expectation of better range from an EV, but there will also be a market for older ones. As fossil fuels diminish, petrol/diesel prices will go up, the governments will be under even more pressure to meet carbon emission targets, and people will simply feel that they *have* to make the move to EV.

When that happens, people will want to get on board at various price points. As mentioned, not all will be able to afford a new car. All things being equal, a 2016 LEAF will still have about 70-75% battery capacity after 10 year, and so will still have a range of about 100km (30kwh version). That car will be very saleable to someone who just wants to “get in” to an electric car, and whose driving habits suit that type of range. For the majority of people right now a 100ish range is fine for day-to-day driving, so that’s likely to be the case in 10 years as well.

Just like there’s a market for 10 year old ICE cars now, there will be a market for 10 year old EVs too. In all likelihood, the 10 year old EV market will be stronger then than the 10 year old ICE market now, because more people will have to make the move to EV.

In terms of the government losing revenue, there is potential to recoup at least some of this by the savings in carbon tax and/or revenue from selling carbon tax credits.

Agree with most of your ball

Don't however on the 2nd hand market for some EV's

Salesman in Nissan told me has had a lot of Leaf owners with 12/13 reg cars come in seeing if they could get scrappage against the new Leaf out this year

5 year old cars that cost nearly 30k for scrap, madness

He reckons they have had such interest that Nissan will introduce it

I think we will have a massive battery breakthrough early in the next decade, range, charging speed, degradation will no longer be an issue, cars will have 15 year warranties such will be the advancement in the tech

Whatever released before that time will be fit for scrap in comparison

The flammable lithium batteries of today's EV will be seen as primitive and no one will even want them, could even be banned entirely at some point

Money involved makes me sure that breakthrough is close

KCross

thierry14 wrote: »

Agree

Government should stay the **** out of it until forced

Isn't it already being forced? Aren't there 100s of millions of fines heading our way because we have woefully missed our targets for 2020?

When should the govt stick their nose in?

If it does nothing the fines will grow and people will simply buy more diesels. Intervention is required Im afraid, whether people like it or not, otherwise you'll be asked to pay more tax to cover the fines... no easy way out.

KCross

thierry14 wrote: »

Don't however on the 2nd hand market for some EV's

Salesman in Nissan told me has had a lot of Leaf owners with 12/13 reg cars come in seeing if they could get scrappage against the new Leaf out this year

5 year old cars that cost nearly 30k for scrap, madness

He reckons they have had such interest that Nissan will introduce it

I call BS on that anyway. Those cars are making €5k+ on the secondhand market.

Why would you look for scrappage when scrappage is only worth €4k. Thats just not believable.

You only look to get scrappage when you have a bangernomics car.

frozenfrozen

'get scrappage against' is probably salesman speak for trade in. They are just so used to trade ins being scrapped

KCross

thierry14 wrote: »

I think we will have a massive battery breakthrough early in the next decade, range, charging speed, degradation will no longer be an issue, cars will have 15 year warranties such will be the advancement in the tech

We all hope for this and you might be right. Unfortunately it will probably be another 5yrs after the breakthrough before we see that battery filtering down to the affordable EV's. You could be looking at 2030 before we see it. Just guessing of course.

One thing that won't happen is the 15yr warranty. Thats not in the manufacturers best interest. You don't get it today in 100yr old mature tech, why would they give it in new tech and expose themselves to mass recalls?!

thierry14 wrote: »

Whatever released before that time will be fit for scrap in comparison

Nah! Everything has a value. Of course the new tech will replace the old tech but most people will just care about... "can that car at that price take me from A to B".

Cars today depreciate to "zero" over 10-12yrs anyway, don't they? So it will just be business as usual.

thierry14 wrote: »

The flammable lithium batteries of today's EV will be seen as primitive and no one will even want them, could even be banned entirely at some point

Money involved makes me sure that breakthrough is close

How many EV's have gone up in flames in UK/Ireland in the last few years? Scaremongering is all that is.

Yes, they are flammable given the right circumstances but so is petrol and that has survived a long time!!!

DrPhilG

thierry14 wrote: »

Salesman in Nissan told me has had a lot of Leaf owners with 12/13 reg cars come in seeing if they could get scrappage against the new Leaf out this year

5 year old cars that cost nearly 30k for scrap, madness

Salesman is Nissan is lying to you. I have a 141 Leaf that is worth (according to EV dealers) around €11k minimum in private sale. Even with the older model and a few years more there isn't a hope that 12/13 reg cars are worth less than €4k even to trade.

beauf

I don't think 2nd value are that bad.

I also don't there will a massive move to EV not in that time frame anyway.

BoatMad

thierry14 wrote: »

Agree

Government should stay the **** out of it until forced

It will take decades to get rid of ICE and rightly so

Not everyone can afford a brand new car and frankly bar Tesla every EV made before 2016 is only fit for scrap as a 10 year old used car for the general public who have an expectation

A 16 24kWh Leaf in 2026 is not that expectation

I think the 60kWh+ cars of 2020 are borderline good enough

2030 should be the end of ICE then

thierry , you are beginning to sound like a broken record , you have ranted and raved against EVS here and most of what you say is not borne out by peoples experience in current EVs