Graduated speeding offences from Shane Ross

Del2005

Reading over the last few days that Shane Ross wants to introduce graduated speeding offences with the more you exceed the limit the bigger the penalty. His proposal is that if you exceed by 10km/h you get less points than if you exceed by 20km/h etc.

While I agree with the idea of graduated offences IMO it should be by the percentage you exceed the limit not the extra speed. Doing 140km/h on a motorway, ~15% over, is much less risk than doing 50km/h in a 30km/h housing estate, ~66% over, yet both are getting the same penalty.

If it is implemented, and plenty of people have pointed out issues, it should be done in conjunction with a complete overhaul of the way speeding is enforced. It's a joke that the N4 around Liffey Valley has spread checks regularly while I've never seen one in 30 zones. The limits on roads should also be reviewed before implementing it, everyone knows of a quality road with a stupidly low limit or a dangerous road with a stupidly high limit. Even the GoSafe vans aren't located in the dangerous location, they are on the straights. Also getting a letter in the post a few weeks after the offence isn't much use to making a dangerous location safer.


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/doubts-raised-over-shane-ross-plans-for-graduated-speed-sanctions-1.3343387?mode=amp

ION08

I would definitely agree with the implementation of something like this... as long as the minimum/starting point for the offense is not the current €80 + 3points!!

Being hit with €80 + more importantly 3 points for excedding a limit by less than 10kmh is absolutely ridiculous.

Whereas driving the wrong way down a motorway incurs 2 points :rolleyes:

They should just copy the German System...



https://www.howtogermany.com/pages/traffic-violations.html

Dravokivich

I don't think we should worry about it being implemented in the manner he initially suggested. Things very rarely are. He's spent a long time last year standing back when unions were on strike and apologising for other politicians. I think it's more likely he's justifying his position by presenting something, regardless of the merit, intentions or any value at all behind it.

ABC101

Del2005 wrote: »

Reading over the last few days that Shane Ross wants to introduce graduated speeding offences with the more you exceed the limit the bigger the penalty. His proposal is that if you exceed by 10km/h you get less points than if you exceed by 20km/h etc.

While I agree with the idea of graduated offences IMO it should be by the percentage you exceed the limit not the extra speed. Doing 140km/h on a motorway, ~15% over, is much less risk than doing 50km/h in a 30km/h housing estate, ~66% over, yet both are getting the same penalty.

If it is implemented, and plenty of people have pointed out issues, it should be done in conjunction with a complete overhaul of the way speeding is enforced. It's a joke that the N4 around Liffey Valley has spread checks regularly while I've never seen one in 30 zones. The limits on roads should also be reviewed before implementing it, everyone knows of a quality road with a stupidly low limit or a dangerous road with a stupidly high limit. Even the GoSafe vans aren't located in the dangerous location, they are on the straights. Also getting a letter in the post a few weeks after the offence isn't much use to making a dangerous location safer.


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/doubts-raised-over-shane-ross-plans-for-graduated-speed-sanctions-1.3343387?mode=amp

Some interesting observations / points there.

If they relocated speed vans in / around schools creches they would make a fortune. Very rarely have I seen traffic doing 30 kph in those zones.

I can't help feeling that things are being made more difficult for mostly compliant motorist whilst there appears to be no law for the person who flouts traffic regulations severely.

How do you disqualify a driver who is already disqualified?

I would suggest that it be made illegal to sell a car to another person if they are unable to produce a valid license. Subject to certain exemptions, i.e. a wealthy car collector who is too old / medically unfit to drive etc

dr.fuzzenstein

ABC101 wrote: »

How do you disqualify a driver who is already disqualified?

Well, it's probably the same as get 100+ Convictions, get probation for free.

I would suggest that it be made illegal to sell a car to another person if they are unable to produce a valid license. Subject to certain exemptions, i.e. a wealthy car collector who is too old / medically unfit to drive etc

Personally I think this will just add complication and difficulties, especially for private sellers. If I sell a car I don't care who buys it as long as I get my money. What they do with it after that is none of my concern. Maybe they want to cut it into pieces and use it as modern art? Buy it and have someone else drive it?
Couldn't really care and I certainly won't be asking them for their driver's license.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

frozenfrozen

shouldn't be up to you or I to police who drives on the road.

Make it easier to be compliant and harder to break the rules

at the moment someone can drive around without a license or anything in a car they buy for 400 euro and in 3 years maybe get caught and have to pay a few hundred euro fine and get disqualified, then they can just do the whole thing again.

I don't know what the answer is but maybe regulate insurance to be cheaper and punishments to be higher to the point that it is absolutely not at all even a question of it being worth it to get caught without license and insurance

ABC101

@ Fred, Frozen, Dr Fuze etc

I'm not convinced, take the below examples.....

1). To open a bank account, proof of residence, proof of identity etc are required under the money laundering act, (20 years old now I think).

2). To collect a parcel at a An Post delivery / Sorting office...... Photo ID required.

3). To hire a car from AVIS / Hertz either here or elsewhere .... Photo ID and Driving license required.

4). To present your car at a NCT centre for testing.... Photo ID required.

5). POST March 2018 to obtain a new / renewal of a driving license... PSC card required.

6). Sometime in 2018, to renew / obtain a new passport ....PSC card required.

7). To book a flight from Ireland to another country, most airlines require photo ID, normally passport etc.

8). I had to rent a property last year on Booking.com. Booked with my credit card, but I also had to submit photo ID, I took a photo of my driving license with my phone and send the photo onto the management company.

9). Checking into a Hotel on the continent, normally they take a scan of your passport or other photo ID.


So as we can see from the above list, which is not exhaustive or extensive..... the majority of us are already producing photo ID just to get a box from An post etc. So I don't see the big deal in having to produce a valid Driving License when buying a car (which most people might do every 3 years).

In relation to the point about "obeying the law and not our business to keep the Law", Generally I agree, but has Minister Shane Ross recently changed the law late last year?

I am open to correction, but if a owner of a vehicle allows a "learner driver" to drive their vehicle unaccompanied then the owner of the vehicle is subject to fine / penalty points as well as the learner driver.

So "in effect", whether we want to keep the law or not, the law has been changed so that we have to "obey AND keep" the law in certain circumstances.

Of course... all this waffle / nonsense above would not be required, if the Legal profession actually jailed people who continue to flout the law with impunity. Disqualification squared, disqualified cubed etc etc..to lawless persons, disqualification by a Irish Court means nothing.

Dartz

Postin on phone while on M50


Doin limit

No camera ever stop me

frozenfrozen

ABC101 wrote: »

@ Fred, Frozen, Dr Fuze etc

I'm not convinced, take the below examples.....

1). To open a bank account, proof of residence, proof of identity etc are required under the money laundering act, (20 years old now I think).

2). To collect a parcel at a An Post delivery / Sorting office...... Photo ID required.

3). To hire a car from AVIS / Hertz either here or elsewhere .... Photo ID and Driving license required.

4). To present your car at a NCT centre for testing.... Photo ID required.

5). POST March 2018 to obtain a new / renewal of a driving license... PSC card required.

6). Sometime in 2018, to renew / obtain a new passport ....PSC card required.

7). To book a flight from Ireland to another country, most airlines require photo ID, normally passport etc.

8). I had to rent a property last year on Booking.com. Booked with my credit card, but I also had to submit photo ID, I took a photo of my driving license with my phone and send the photo onto the management company.

9). Checking into a Hotel on the continent, normally they take a scan of your passport or other photo ID.


So as we can see from the above list, which is not exhaustive or extensive..... the majority of us are already producing photo ID just to get a box from An post etc. So I don't see the big deal in having to produce a valid Driving License when buying a car (which most people might do every 3 years).

In relation to the point about "obeying the law and not our business to keep the Law", Generally I agree, but has Minister Shane Ross recently changed the law late last year?

I am open to correction, but if a owner of a vehicle allows a "learner driver" to drive their vehicle unaccompanied then the owner of the vehicle is subject to fine / penalty points as well as the learner driver.

So "in effect", whether we want to keep the law or not, the law has been changed so that we have to "obey AND keep" the law in certain circumstances.

Of course... all this waffle / nonsense above would not be required, if the Legal profession actually jailed people who continue to flout the law with impunity. Disqualification squared, disqualified cubed etc etc..to lawless persons, disqualification by a Irish Court means nothing.

I'm not giving some random cnut I meet in a carpark a scan of my ID so I can buy a car from him.

ABC101

frozenfrozen wrote: »

I'm not giving some random cnut I meet in a carpark a scan of my ID so I can buy a car from him.

I would’nt be inclined to buy “anything” from a random c*** as you so eloquently describe them!!

Del2005

Dartz wrote: »

Postin on phone while on M50


Doin limit

No camera ever stop me

Don't mention the elephant in the room! Hope you have a good movie on.

Del2005

ION08 wrote: »

They should just copy the German System...



https://www.howtogermany.com/pages/traffic-violations.html

It's a good start but penalises someone for exceeding a 30 limit by 66% nearly the same as someone exceeding a 120 limit by 16%. Doing 50 in a 30 zone should not result in the same penalty as doing 140 in a 120 zone.

dr.fuzzenstein

ABC101 wrote: »

I would’nt be inclined to buy “anything” from a random c*** as you so eloquently describe them!!

That's how a lot of cars are bought and sold. To and from random strangers in car parks.
What are us randon cnuts supposed to do with a scan of someone's drivers license? Send it to the local Garda station to be verified? Pass it on to our local TD? Frame it and hang it on a wall? Wipe our backside with it?
I am really at a loss here.

edit:
I'm being flippant here, but really, what should I do with someone's driving license? I just want to sell my car.

ABC101

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

That's how a lot of cars are bought and sold. To and from random strangers in car parks.
What are us randon cnuts supposed to do with a scan of someone's drivers license? Send it to the local Garda station to be verified? Pass it on to our local TD? Frame it and hang it on a wall? Wipe our backside with it?
I am really at a loss here.

edit:
I'm being flippant here, but really, what should I do with someone's driving license? I just want to sell my car.

Dr Fuze,

I wouldn't get too worked up over it, its not as if Minister Ross is checking Boards for new ideas to claim as his own.

As to what you would do with a scan / copy of the buyers DL, you would send it on to Shannon with the Vehicle Certificate / Log Book.

When selling a vehicle the seller posts the log book / certificate with both signatures onto Shannon so that the database of owners can be updated to the new owners details etc.

A new cert of ownership is then posted out to the new owner of vehicle.

WRT buying and selling in car parks, obviously some activity happens here, but as to how much (overall %) of national car sales / annum I would not know?

Any ideas yourself? 10%, 25%?

Anyway, regardless..........if you look on the Garda Twitter thread how else are these idiots with no NCT. no insurance, or motor tax and have probably been disqualified several times over to be prevented from obtaining a car?

I've made the suggestion of making it illegal to sell a car to a person who has no license to drive. But it's only a suggestion!!!!:)

frozenfrozen

only 10-25% of car sales done between private individuals? :eek:

ABC101

frozenfrozen wrote: »

only 10-25% of car sales done between private individuals? :eek:

It was in the context of Automobile car park sales.

q85dw7osi4lebg

ION08 wrote: »

I would definitely agree with the implementation of something like this... as long as the minimum/starting point for the offense is not the current €80 + 3points!!

Being hit with €80 + more importantly 3 points for excedding a limit by less than 10kmh is absolutely ridiculous.

Whereas driving the wrong way down a motorway incurs 2 points :rolleyes:

They should just copy the German System...



https://www.howtogermany.com/pages/traffic-violations.html

I got done in Germany doing 58 in a 50. A fixed cam that took my mugshot in a rental car. Around a month later I received the fine through my letterbox in Meath! €10. No word of a lie. Postage probably cost half of that.

frozenfrozen

ABC101 wrote: »

It was in the context of Automobile car park sales.

Now I'm just confused, do you think no more than 25% of car sales are done between private individuals? Or are you getting specific about in a carpark and someones driveway doesn't count?

I'm not knocking your idea that there could be a way to stop people getting a car in their name without showing proof of license, like if you sent off the info to shannon when you sold a car and the receiver had to also send off a scan of their up to date details to shannon before they'd get the log book

But my original point was there's no way I'd ever give even a part time dealer a scan of my ID let alone a random cnut

ABC101

frozenfrozen wrote: »

Now I'm just confused, do you think no more than 25% of car sales are done between private individuals? Or are you getting specific about in a carpark and someones driveway doesn't count?

I'm not knocking your idea that there could be a way to stop people getting a car in their name without showing proof of license, like if you sent off the info to shannon when you sold a car and the receiver had to also send off a scan of their up to date details to shannon before they'd get the log book

But my original point was there's no way I'd ever give even a part time dealer a scan of my ID let alone a random cnut

WRT private sales of cars in a car park of a shopping centre (or whereever), I never made any statement.

I was only “asking a question” in response to Dr Fuzz comment.

It was Dr Fuzz who stated that a large % of car sales occur privately, Dr Fuzz also mentioned car parks.

I never made any statement! I only asked what % of car sales are private? Go back and read the posts again!!!

I honestly don’t know the answer!

frozenfrozen

ABC101 wrote: »

WRT private sales of cars in a car park of a shopping centre (or whereever), I never made any statement.

I was only “asking a question” in response to Dr Fuzz comment.

It was Dr Fuzz who stated that a large % of car sales occur privately, Dr Fuzz also mentioned car parks.

I never made any statement! I only asked what % of car sales are private? Go back and read the posts again!!!

I honestly don’t know the answer!

think we'll leave it there pal

CiniO

ABC101 wrote: »

@ Fred, Frozen, Dr Fuze etc

I'm not convinced, take the below examples.....

1). To open a bank account, proof of residence, proof of identity etc are required under the money laundering act, (20 years old now I think).

2). To collect a parcel at a An Post delivery / Sorting office...... Photo ID required.

3). To hire a car from AVIS / Hertz either here or elsewhere .... Photo ID and Driving license required.

4). To present your car at a NCT centre for testing.... Photo ID required.

5). POST March 2018 to obtain a new / renewal of a driving license... PSC card required.

6). Sometime in 2018, to renew / obtain a new passport ....PSC card required.

7). To book a flight from Ireland to another country, most airlines require photo ID, normally passport etc.

8). I had to rent a property last year on Booking.com. Booked with my credit card, but I also had to submit photo ID, I took a photo of my driving license with my phone and send the photo onto the management company.

9). Checking into a Hotel on the continent, normally they take a scan of your passport or other photo ID.


So as we can see from the above list, which is not exhaustive or extensive..... the majority of us are already producing photo ID just to get a box from An post etc. So I don't see the big deal in having to produce a valid Driving License when buying a car (which most people might do every 3 years).

All your examples show, that presenting Photo ID is generally required to identify yourself and prove that you are the person who you're saying you are.

I would have no problem having to show my photo ID when buying a car either (very often I do anyway).

But requiring driving licence in order to buy a car can't be done, as there's no law requiring you to have driving licence in order to buy a car.
And there definitely shouldn't be law like that, because fact that you're not entitled to drive on public roads, doesn't mean you can't own the car.

CiniO

Del2005 wrote: »

Reading over the last few days that Shane Ross wants to introduce graduated speeding offences with the more you exceed the limit the bigger the penalty. His proposal is that if you exceed by 10km/h you get less points than if you exceed by 20km/h etc.

While I agree with the idea of graduated offences IMO it should be by the percentage you exceed the limit not the extra speed. Doing 140km/h on a motorway, ~15% over, is much less risk than doing 50km/h in a 30km/h housing estate, ~66% over, yet both are getting the same penalty.

If it is implemented, and plenty of people have pointed out issues, it should be done in conjunction with a complete overhaul of the way speeding is enforced. It's a joke that the N4 around Liffey Valley has spread checks regularly while I've never seen one in 30 zones. The limits on roads should also be reviewed before implementing it, everyone knows of a quality road with a stupidly low limit or a dangerous road with a stupidly high limit. Even the GoSafe vans aren't located in the dangerous location, they are on the straights. Also getting a letter in the post a few weeks after the offence isn't much use to making a dangerous location safer.


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/doubts-raised-over-shane-ross-plans-for-graduated-speed-sanctions-1.3343387?mode=amp

Gradual speeding fines is absolutely natural thing and definitely should be implemented.
I was astonished when I moved to Ireland and found out that speeding fines are not gradual, as I've never seen such setup anywhere else before. Definitely it's about time to introduce it.

The only problem I can see quickly is that Irish law is not really designed for it, as it allows to penalise drivers for speeding purely on garda opinion that someone was speeding as well as by measurements through uncalibrated equipment.
To be able to issue speeding fines based on speed, gards should be able to establish exact speed first as proof of the offence, and with current setup I hardly can see this happening.
So they would need to update this law first, and obtain proper calibrated equipment.

And in relation to graduing speeding offences by percentage above speed limit I agree with you 100%. It should be based on percentage above the limit. Makes perfect sense.
Unfortunately most people won't agree with us, and you probably won't find a single country in this world where speeding fines are based on percentage above speed limit.

ABC101

CiniO wrote: »

All your examples show, that presenting Photo ID is generally required to identify yourself and prove that you are the person who you're saying you are.

I would have no problem having to show my photo ID when buying a car either (very often I do anyway).

But requiring driving licence in order to buy a car can't be done, as there's no law requiring you to have driving licence in order to buy a car.
And there definitely shouldn't be law like that, because fact that you're not entitled to drive on public roads, doesn't mean you can't own the car.

I think the general conscientious on here is that most posters would not agree in having to have a valid license in order to buy a car etc.

The law could be changed in the future, so that it would be mandatory.

Whether it will or not...remains to be seen.

WRT the persons who are already disqualified and are still driving, what would be your solution?

beauf

Del2005 wrote: »

Reading over the last few days that Shane Ross wants to introduce .... I agree with the idea of graduated offences .....

...Garda Crisis: Just one in five speeding offences end in conviction....

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/garda-crisis-just-one-in-five-speeding-offences-end-in-conviction-446288.html

Yeah new rules which won't do anything. Is this anything other than PR exercise?

Vic_08

beauf wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/garda-crisis-just-one-in-five-speeding-offences-end-in-conviction-446288.html

Yeah new rules which won't do anything. Is this anything other than PR exercise?

Nope, just the usual story of a politician whose name hasn't been in the Times enough recently.


Ireland is swimming in laws, statutes and regulations, we don't need more of them. What we are lacking is proper enforcement and even more so a proper justice system when cases are brought. Of course fixing that part of the system requires money and tackling all the vested interests in the legal gravy train, much easier to just push through reams of extra legislation that will be largely ignored anyway.

Riva10

Graduated speeding offences will never happen here as the insurance companies would loose too much money not being able to screw the motorist who has points for recklessly driving at 3kmh over the posted limit.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

mikeecho

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

€360 fine + car impounded for 1 month & 3month ban + half your allotted amount of points.*

(just to save people doing the FX)

* in ireland you collect points, in Bulgaria, you loose points.. no points = no licence

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

CramCycle

ABC101 wrote: »

How do you disqualify a driver who is already disqualified?

Brutally heavy fines, about 5,000euro minimum.

I would suggest that it be made illegal to sell a car to another person if they are unable to produce a valid license. Subject to certain exemptions, i.e. a wealthy car collector who is too old / medically unfit to drive etc

Maybe not a license as others have said, but a photo ID that you must copy and send in with the VLC. It can be a drivers license, passport, so long as it is accepted.

Presley Enough Cornflakes wrote: »

I got done in Germany doing 58 in a 50. A fixed cam that took my mugshot in a rental car. Around a month later I received the fine through my letterbox in Meath! €10. No word of a lie. Postage probably cost half of that.

Really, I thought the rental companies will pay the fine on your behalf and pull the fine plus an admin fee from your card, normally agreed to in the T&Cs. If the fine is attached to the car reg plate rather than the driver. It would cost the rental company to much (in time taken up and money) to find out who was the registered driver on the day, notify the authorities, and then send it on.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

ION08

ION08 wrote: »

I would definitely agree with the implementation of something like this... as long as the minimum/starting point for the offense is not the current €80 + 3points!!

Being hit with €80 + more importantly 3 points for excedding a limit by less than 10kmh is absolutely ridiculous.

Whereas driving the wrong way down a motorway incurs 2 points :rolleyes:

They should just copy the German System...



https://www.howtogermany.com/pages/traffic-violations.html

that makes far too much sense for use in Ireland.

Germany has an 8 point system. I note that for minor speed limit < 20 kph over limit you don't get a point in Germany. (but can get a suspension for serious infractions straight off which makes sense)
Meanwhile in Ireland you lose your licence after 4 infractions < 10 kph over limit.

Note that in Germany points expire 2.5 to 10 yrs. I suppose that more serious speeding offences in terms of speed over limit that it takes longer to expire.

Love the way in Ireland that you could get nabbed by a guard, who may take 5 months to bother to put it into the system so it effectively adds on an extra 5 months to the 3 years that the offence stands for.

Del2005

glasso wrote: »

Love the way in Ireland that you could get nabbed by a guard, who may take 5 months to bother to put it into the system so it effectively adds on an extra 5 months to the 3 years that the offence stands for.

That's not how it works. You don't have penalty points till you get the letter from the RSA saying that they are on your licence. So if you get stopped in January and don't get the notification till May your points will be from around August for 3 years.

Del2005

Del2005 wrote: »

That's not how it works. You don't have penalty points till you get the letter from the RSA saying that they are on your licence. So if you get stopped in January and don't get the notification till May your points will be from around August for 3 years.

yes I agree but effectively due to the delay in the notification side due to nyard inertia the points may not be on your licence but effectively extending the period before they expire on your licence by that time. "hanging over you" if you will.

CramCycle

glasso wrote: »

yes I agree but effectively due to the delay in the notification side due to nyard inertia the points may not be on your licence but effectively extending the period before they expire on your licence by that time. "hanging over you" if you will.

It probably balances out in the long run though, those few months where they haven't been applied mean that your insurance premiums (if you notify them) haven't gone up, and if you have been skirting the line you may miss getting banned etc.

This said, it would be an interesting case if you lost your license through a string of traffic offences but you wouldn't have if they had been applied from the offence date, could you claim you shouldn't have (you should have if you rack that many up and don't learn), from a purely legal (not moral) point of view.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.