Fine Universities that are denying free speech.

Professor Moriarty

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

You are welcome to suggest that, but if you invite a holocaust denier, your suggestion will be ignored by protestors. And if you have the University deploy enough security to protect the holocaust deniers speech, you can expect cracked heads, blood on campus, arrests, video on the 9 o'clock news of young people being beaten to let a holocaust denier speak without interruption.

Which is not a good look for a University.

It is possible to deny a holocaust denier the right to speak in a public forum under EU law. The bit in bold sounds quite fascistic TBH.

Zubeneschamali

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

It is possible to deny a holocaust denier the right to speak in a public forum under EU law. The bit in bold sounds quite fascistic TBH.

But that is what you are advocating when you say anyone should be allowed speak, and that the University should deploy enough security to make that happen. Some speakers will be met with violent protests. Some speakers should be met with violent protests. This is why holocaust denial is illegal in many countries.

Professor Moriarty

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

But that is what you are advocating when you say anyone should be allowed speak, and that the University should deploy enough security to make that happen. Some speakers will be met with violent protests. Some speakers should be met with violent protests. This is why holocaust denial is illegal in many countries.

No. I said that (subject to law) free speech should be upheld and protected. If protestors break the law under those conditions then that's their problem. If people have a problem with, for example, holocaust denial and want its advocates banned then they should work on getting legislation changed.

DickSwiveller

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

You are welcome to suggest that, but if you invite a holocaust denier, your suggestion will be ignored by protestors. And if you have the University deploy enough security to protect the holocaust deniers speech, you can expect cracked heads, blood on campus, arrests, video on the 9 o'clock news of young people being beaten to let a holocaust denier speak without interruption.

Which is not a good look for a University.

You're arguing that appeasing an intolerant mob is more important than allowing somebody to speak. Wow. Let holocaust deniers speak. Read my earlier example of David Irving being torn apart by the rhetorical skills of a Cambridge historian. When he was imprisoned in Austria for holocaust denial he became a cult figure.

Zubeneschamali

DickSwiveller wrote: »

Let holocaust deniers speak.

No.

Brian?

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

No.

I disagree. The more they speak, the more brain dead they sound.

It’s the same with the likes of Milo or Shapiro. Put them in a debate and they’ll appear intelligent and witty. Sit back and let them speak and they’ll soon descend into complete nonsense. See any of Shapiro’s books or the recent editors notes on Milo’s book.

Brian?

DickSwiveller wrote: »

You're arguing that appeasing an intolerant mob is more important than allowing somebody to speak. Wow. Let holocaust deniers speak. Read my earlier example of David Irving being torn apart by the rhetorical skills of a Cambridge historian. When he was imprisoned in Austria for holocaust denial he became a cult figure.

Why can’t they be equally important?

Brian?

kaymin wrote: »

Let the mob organise their own session to de-bunk the views they disagree with.

Everyone's opinion should be heard but at the appropriate time.

People who refuse to allow scheduled speakers speak should be thrown out.

So you want to set up a censorship apparatus for both sides? Which will do nothing but create echo chambers.

Brian?

VonZan wrote: »

Are you deliberately missing the obvious here? It’s not very hard...

What’s the obvious here?

Chris_Heilong

The guy is very intelligent and counters popular myths propagated by the left/left influenced media, except for the nationalistic side of some of his arguments I believe 90% of what he says is worth listening to as they are based on facts, toxic socialist creations such as 'white privilege' and 'institutionalised racism' need to be shown for how ridiculous they are, As they just divide and put people into groups which leads to tribalism and a fractured country.

So yes he should be allowed to speak at Uni however he needs to stay away from european politics as he is lacking in knowledge in this area.

Brian?

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

The guy is very intelligent and counters popular myths propagated by the left/left influenced media, except for the nationalistic side of some of his arguments I believe 90% of what he says is worth listening to as they are based on facts, toxic socialist creations such as 'white privilege' and 'institutionalised racism' need to be shown for how ridiculous they are, As they just divide and put people into groups which leads to tribalism and a fractured country.

So yes he should be allowed to speak at Uni however he needs to stay away from european politics as he is lacking in knowledge in this area.

Who? Shapiro?

Chris_Heilong

Brian? wrote: »

Who? Shapiro?

Yeah, he is open to debate and I appreciate his use of facts, however what you say is also true and he does have his own bias which comes across in his own material.

johnnyskeleton

DickSwiveller wrote: »

You clearly haven't read anything I've written in this thread. I'm not - for the 500th time- talking about disagreement. I'm talking about a mob shouting down speakers. Are all you people so weak and sensitive that you cant even let someone speak for a half hour/hour because it might hurt your feelings? It's embarrassing.

DickSwiveller wrote: »

Your last paragraph is just complete waffle, based on no facts or logic. If someone is roaring during a speech they are impinging on a person's freedom to speak and should be removed from the venue. Again, your logic is completely ridiculous. When a person is invited to give a talk they are given a platform by dint of being invited and there right to express themselves should override the right of people to shut them down.

Mod note:

While this is no doubt an evocative topic, please be civil and don't resort to personal attacks or dismissals of other people.

Brian?

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Yeah, he is open to debate and I appreciate his use of facts, however what you say is also true and he does have his own bias which comes across in his own material.

In my experience he’s very selective with his use of “facts”. He fires out statistics without really explaining their origin.

20Cent

I'd bet 99.9% of speakers in universities experience no issues at all.
Why do these people attract problems?

DickSwiveller

20Cent wrote: »

I'd bet 99.9% of speakers in universities experience no issues at all.
Why do these people attract problems?

Irrelevant. They still have a right to speak, like everyone else.

20Cent

DickSwiveller wrote: »

Irrelevant. They still have a right to speak, like everyone else.

It demonstrates that it's not an issue with freedom of speech in general just what these people are saying.

DickSwiveller

20Cent wrote: »

It demonstrates that it's not an issue with freedom of speech in general just what these people are saying.

Do they have the right to say what it is they're saying. If so, then they shouldn't be shouted down.

LaChatteGitane

DickSwiveller wrote: »

Do they have the right to say what it is they're saying. If so, then they shouldn't be shouted down.

Hate speech should never ever be tolerated.

20Cent

DickSwiveller wrote: »

Do they have the right to say what it is they're saying. If so, then they shouldn't be shouted down.

I think you are over exaggerating the problem.
There was a riot at a milo event and a few protests, dunno about Shapiro has he had events "shouted down"?

Milo had a photo of a transgender student up on a screen and was calling her a pervert etc. He was also putting up the phone number to report illegals. His next twist was to name illegal immigrant students from the stage. I'm all for a robust debate but that was just bullying and being nasty for the sake if causing trouble.

DickSwiveller

LaChatteGitane wrote: »

Hate speech should never ever be tolerated.

Define hate speech.

DickSwiveller

20Cent wrote: »

I think you are over exaggerating the problem.
There was a riot at a milo event and a few protests, dunno about Shapiro has he had events "shouted down"?

Milo had a photo of a transgender student up on a screen and was calling her a pervert etc. He was also putting up the phone number to report illegals. His next twist was to name illegal immigrant students from the stage. I'm all for a robust debate but that was just bullying and being nasty for the sake if causing trouble.

I'm not exaggerating the problem. I realise it's only a small number of speakers who are targeted. Thee was a riot at Berkeley University because Shapiro was speaking there.

Do you have any links re Milo. I hadn't heard that.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

You are welcome to suggest that, but if you invite a holocaust denier, your suggestion will be ignored by protestors. And if you have the University deploy enough security to protect the holocaust deniers speech, you can expect cracked heads, blood on campus, arrests, video on the 9 o'clock news of young people being beaten to let a holocaust denier speak without interruption.

Which is not a good look for a University.

Bit odd though that that’s the only situation where it gets so heated. I mean people can discuss other events with impunity.

20Cent

DickSwiveller wrote: »

I'm not exaggerating the problem. I realise it's only a small number of speakers who are targeted. Thee was a riot at Berkeley University because Shapiro was speaking there.

Do you have any links re Milo. I hadn't heard that.

Shapiro spoke at Berkeley there was a protest but the talk went ahead.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2017/09/15/ben-shapiro-berkeley-protest-arrests/669071001/

Outside, hundreds of protesters were also allowed to voice their displeasure over the speech by former Breitbart editor Ben Shapiro, chanting “no Trump, no KKK, no fascist USA.” Others held signs objecting to the university hosting Shapiro.

“For the most part it was an orderly event, attended by respectful orderly people,” UC Police Chief Margo Bennett said. “The crowd in the street was loud, but not violent.”

Bennett said four or five people were arrested on city property, though Berkeley police tweeted later Thursday night that nine had been arrested.

“We had a successful event tonight,” UC spokesman Dan Mogulof said, adding that the university is committed to hosting speakers like Shapiro in the future.

Unless you mean another event.

Redgarding Milo.
This is from the talk he gave
Attacking a trans student.
https://youtu.be/h2oV1QKUMdM


ICE phone number:
https://youtu.be/53hw2p2Znes

Besides all that he also has expressed sympathy for child molestors and claimed to have attended parties where children were given drugs and abused.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Milo is another troll.

ancapailldorcha

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Milo is another troll.

Name calling is not constructive. No more please.

LaChatteGitane

DickSwiveller wrote: »

Define hate speech.

Just a quickie from wikipedia. It is quite simple really.
"Hate speech is speech which attacks a person or group on the basis of attributes such as race, religion, ethnic origin, sexual orientation, disability, or gender. ... A website which uses hate speech may be called a hate site."

DickSwiveller

LaChatteGitane wrote: »

Just a quickie from wikipedia. It is quite simple really.
"Hate speech is speech which attacks a person or group on the basis of attributes such as race, religion, ethnic origin, sexual orientation, disability, or gender. ... A website which uses hate speech may be called a hate site."

It's very subjective. I'm sure some little totalitarian would have a field day censoring all sorts of opinions.

20Cent

DickSwiveller wrote: »

It's very subjective. I'm sure some little totalitarian would have a field day censoring all sorts of opinions.

What do you think hate speech is?

DickSwiveller

20Cent wrote: »

What do you think hate speech is?

Hate speech is a term that has been utilized by aggressive totalitarians in an attempt to silence other people. There's no such thing. There are perfectly good laws covering harassment and incitement to violence.