Builder shafted us, confront builder or contact solicitor??

Ginger83

Hi

We had some work done, an extension built which is freezing/impossible to heat and could not get to the bottom of the problem.

We have now found out the roof was not completed correctly, the walls do not meet building regulations and the rads are all grossly undersized.

I'm wondering should we confront the builder or contact a solicitor? We don't really want him back on our site as we believe his "tradesmen" are chancers and the quality of the work is very very poor.

The council paid out a grant towards this but nobody passed/signed off the work. Would they also have a case to answer?

Doop

Get a full written report carried out by a Building Surveyor. Contact a solicitor, as you said you don't want him back to rectify the work. Was there any retention kept? was there a contract? a bill of quantities? drawings?

I dont see how you could infer any responsibility onto the council!

Ginger83

Doop wrote: »

Get a full written report carried out by a Building Surveyor. Contact a solicitor, as you said you don't want him back to rectify the work. Was there any retention kept? was there a contract? a bill of quantities? drawings?

I dont see how you could infer any responsibility onto the council!

We discussed our needs with the builder who submitted a drawing he done to the council. No contract, more of a quotation that said full price and stated finished as per drawing. No retention or bill of quantities.

The council approved a grant for the job and sent an engineer out at the start to check everything, however no one passed the work and the grant was paid.

Why wouldn't the council be partially liable?

sydthebeat

Are you sure the council paid out a grant with absolutely nobody checking the work??

Very lax with public money if that's the case.

Did they at least give a specification of works in the first place?

Ginger83

sydthebeat wrote: »

Are you sure the council paid out a grant with absolutely nobody checking the work??

Very lax with public money if that's the case.

Did they at least give a specification of works in the first place?

Yes 100% sure, the builder asked my wife to go to the council to sign some form so that he got paid directly.

No spec of works.

the_pen_turner

what is wrong with the roof.

your only option is to get someone in to officially state what is wrong
then use that report to get the builder to sort the issues if any are found

Ginger83

the_pen_turner wrote: »

what is wrong with the roof.

your only option is to get someone in to officially state what is wrong
then use that report to get the builder to sort the issues if any are found

Its a warm roof and the end wall/part of roof is not insulated or sealed. Heat is being lost here and because the fascia is not fitted correctly air is getting under the roof.

Please see video below, particularly at 7min 10sec

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gyu3RKdaKTY&t=74s

We dont want the builder back, not only has he shafted us with building regs the quality of the work is very poor.

the_pen_turner

i think getting in someone to officially say what's wrong is the best course of action. then get quotes to fix it. approach the builder and go from there

Ginger83

the_pen_turner wrote: »

i think getting in someone to officially say what's wrong is the best course of action. then get quotes to fix it. approach the builder and go from there

I think i'll seek legal advice because i'd prefer someone else to fix it.

What did you think of the video?

the_pen_turner

video is good but its more aimed at passing an exam than reality.
are you saying that the builder didn't insulate above the wallplate and that the soffit vents are ventilating all that space.

C3PO

One way or the other you are going to need an engineer/surveyors report. The chances of getting the builder to voluntarily pay somebody else to repair his poor workmanship are negligible I would have thought!

Ginger83

the_pen_turner wrote: »

video is good but its more aimed at passing an exam than reality.
are you saying that the builder didn't insulate above the wallplate and that the soffit vents are ventilating all that space.

Yes, thats it.

the_pen_turner

how do you know there is no insulation. can you see in somewhere.

Ginger83

C3PO wrote: »

One way or the other you are going to need an engineer/surveyors report. The chances of getting the builder to voluntarily pay somebody else to repair his poor workmanship are negligible I would have thought!

So do you mean we have no comeback on a cowboy builder who built a roof wrong, blatantly ignored building regs on walls and put in all rads too small and the council paid for this?

This is not 1 honest mistake. Its someone who purposely cut corners for financial gain.

Ginger83

the_pen_turner wrote: »

how do you know there is no insulation. can you see in somewhere.

I watched it being built.

the_pen_turner

who speced the jobs. the what size are the rads and what should they be.

why didn't you mention that insulation issue when you spotted it

James 007

I would go back to your own engineer or architect regarding what they specified in the first place. If you didn't employ one in the first instance, lesson learnt. Why would the council be responsible. The onus is on the Client to employ the necessary professionals to complete the works in a competent and professional manner.

Your only course of action now is to employ an engineer/architect to complete a survey and assess what work now needs to be done to bring it up to current regulations.

Ginger83

James 007 wrote: »

I would go back to your own engineer or architect regarding what they specified in the first place. If you didn't employ one in the first instance, lesson learnt. Why would the council be responsible. The onus is on the Client to employ the necessary professionals to complete the works in a competent and professional manner.

Your only course of action now is to employ an engineer/architect to complete a survey and assess what work now needs to be done to bring it up to current regulations.

As far as i was aware the council's engineer was to pass it before payment.

Ginger83

the_pen_turner wrote: »

who speced the jobs. the what size are the rads and what should they be.

why didn't you mention that insulation issue when you spotted it

The building contractor speced it. 1 rad is 55% of what it should be, the rest 60%

I didnt know it was meant to be insulated at the time.

C3PO

Ginger83 wrote: »

So do you mean we have no comeback on a cowboy builder who built a roof wrong, blatantly ignored building regs on walls and put in all rads too small and the council paid for this?

This is not 1 honest mistake. Its someone who purposely cut corners for financial gain.

No I'm not saying that but I think that you will probably need to engage a solicitor and have a specialist report commissioned in order to have any chance of having the repairs completed. You may well have to go to court too! It is very unlikely that a builder like that is simply going to roll over, accept that he f**ked up and pay somebody else to complete the job!

Ginger83

C3PO wrote: »

No I'm not saying that but I think that you will probably need to engage a solicitor and have a specialist report commissioned in order to have any chance of having the repairs completed. You may well have to go to court too! It is very unlikely that a builder like that is simply going to roll over, accept that he f**ked up and pay somebody else to complete the job!

I'm a disabled man with a terminal condition. This builder took advantage of that and does alot of grant work.

I dont think it would do his of the co co's reputation any favours if it got out a builder got 40k for a job a disabled man cant use.

return guide

Ginger83 wrote: »

As far as i was aware the council's engineer was to pass it before payment.

Was the builder working on behalf of the council i.e. being paid by them ?
If so the council to chase the builder as the contract is between them.
Hope this helps

Ginger83

return guide wrote: »

Was the builder working on behalf of the council i.e. being paid by them ?
If so the council to chase the builder as the contract is between them.
Hope this helps

We were approved a grant. We chose the builder but he was on their approved list.

the_pen_turner

Ginger83 wrote: »

I'm a disabled man with a terminal condition. This builder took advantage of that and does alot of grant work.

I dont think it would do his of the co co's reputation any favours if it got out a builder got 40k for a job a disabled man cant use.

as sad as that is , it is irrelevant to your dilemma.
your rights are the same as everyone else and so are theirs.
nobody should be ripped of .
I doubt the builder screwed up because of your condition

Ginger83

the_pen_turner wrote: »

as sad as that is , it is irrelevant to your dilemma.
your rights are the same as everyone else and so are theirs.
nobody should be ripped of .
I doubt the builder screwed up because of your condition

Fair enough but there's no way they are all mistakes. He's obviously a cowboy.

Why would you say he screwed up?

highgiant1985

C3PO wrote: »

No I'm not saying that but I think that you will probably need to engage a solicitor and have a specialist report commissioned in order to have any chance of having the repairs completed. You may well have to go to court too! It is very unlikely that a builder like that is simply going to roll over, accept that he f**ked up and pay somebody else to complete the job!

You need to take all emotion out of this and think logically.

If you think you can approach the builder to rectify this then do otherwise you should get the specialist report before taking legal action IMO.

The reality is no one here knows you. We have only your word on the matter. The same is true if you end up in front of a judge or mediator. It becomes a case of you said / he said. You may be able to prove it with photos taken yourself but having a specialist report from a neutral third party, an expert in the area, that validates your argument and proves that what you're saying about the quality of work is true.

the_pen_turner

you only seem to have 2 issues
screwed up the insulation . either through forgetting or not knowing.

screw up with rads . the builder might not have caused that screw up. the plumber probably speced the rads.

neither are acceptable but not huge issues
both are easy enough sort out.

Ginger83

highgiant1985 wrote: »

You need to take all emotion out of this and think logically.

If you think you can approach the builder to rectify this then do otherwise you should get the specialist report before taking legal action IMO.

The reality is no one here knows you. We have only your word on the matter. The same is true if you end up in front of a judge or mediator. It becomes a case of you said / he said. You may be able to prove it with photos taken yourself but having a specialist report from a neutral third party, an expert in the area, that validates your argument and proves that what you're saying about the quality of work is true.

Ok thank you, i think i will seek legal advice and then employ the services of a building surveyor.

If i can get a choice of who fixes the issues it certainly wont be him.

the_pen_turner

you are calling the builder a cowboy but you havnt even talked to them about it and see what they will do to fix it.


we all make mistakes . its how you deal with them that shows what kind of person you are

the_pen_turner

why wont you let this builder fix any issues. surely there is more to this story .

Ginger83

the_pen_turner wrote: »

you only seem to have 2 issues
screwed up the insulation . either through forgetting or not knowing.

screw up with rads . the builder might not have caused that screw up. the plumber probably speced the rads.

neither are acceptable but not huge issues
both are easy enough sort out.

The roof might be easily fixed but all slabs will have to be taken off external walls and thicker 1s fixed on. Then a full reskim. And fit extra rads.

Not ideal when we have a wetroom floor and tiled shower, not to mention repainting and the upset or the 1000 euro surveyor's bill.

the_pen_turner

Ginger83 wrote: »

The roof might be easily fixed but all slabs will have to be taken off external walls and thicker 1s fixed on. Then a full reskim. And fit extra rads.

Not ideal when we have a wetroom floor and tiled shower, not to mention repainting and the upset or the 1000 euro surveyor's bill.

you have lost me now. why are you taking off slabs .

surely if you take off the fascia you can insulate from there and re fix the fascia.

larger rads is easy enough

C3PO

How do you know the details of the defects if you haven’t had a surveyor/engineer’s report?

Ginger83

the_pen_turner wrote: »

why wont you let this builder fix any issues. surely there is more to this story .

There is no more, we just dont have any confidence in the quality of the teams work. After having a few things spotted by visitors we have bowed/crooked walls, poor tiling, badly hung doors, gaps under external doors, etc

Ginger83

the_pen_turner wrote: »

you have lost me now. why are you taking off slabs .

surely if you take off the fascia you can insulate from there and re fix the fascia.

larger rads is easy enough

yes but that only fixes the roof, the walls dont meet regs either, what would you suggest for this?

Ginger83

C3PO wrote: »

How do you know the details of the defects if you haven’t had a surveyor/engineer’s report?

With the walls the insulation company's techinal department have told me this

With the rads I have had an independent plumber check this and have had it backed up by a plumbing supply company. I asked the plumber who fitted the rads if they were big enough and he looked at me and said yes. Pure lie.

With the roof I have discussed this with a surveyor over the phone and also the cost of a site visit and report.

Ginger83

C3PO wrote: »

How do you know the details of the defects if you haven’t had a surveyor/engineer’s report?

With the walls the insulation company's techinal department have told me this

With the rads I have had an independent plumber check this and have had it backed up by a plumbing supply company.

With the roof I have discussed this with a surveyor over the phone and also the cost of a site visit and report.

scwazrh

Ginger83 wrote: »

Hi

I'm wondering should we confront the builder or contact a solicitor? We don't really want him back on our site as we believe his "tradesmen" are chancers and the quality of the work is very very poor.

The council paid out a grant towards this but nobody passed/signed off the work. Would they also have a case to answer?

Its unfortunate this has happened to you and I can understand why its hard to remove emotions from it .

First step is to contact the builder and advise him/them of the problem.If he ignores you send a registered letter.If he offers to correct the issues you're aware of you can't dictate which staff he has on the site providing they complete the work properly to industry standards , not what you think is high quality.

The council are in no way responsible for this regardless of whether they should be or not .

Ginger83

scwazrh wrote: »

Its unfortunate this has happened to you and I can understand why its hard to remove emotions from it .

First step is to contact the builder and advise him/them of the problem.If he ignores you send a registered letter.If he offers to correct the issues you're aware of you can't dictate which staff he has on the site providing they complete the work properly to industry standards , not what you think is high quality.

The council are in no way responsible for this regardless of whether they should be or not .

Hi i was wondering why should the builder be given the chance to fix something he got caught out on? The job is below regs/specs in more ways than 1.

evolving_doors

We nearly went the legal route on something similar and got as far as paying for engineers report/registered letters.
Decided to check out the tradesmans busineds details to apply for small claims court.
Turns out the guy/wife/sons had more companies disolved than you could shake a stick at... and he'd just dissolved again after we sent the registered letters seeking redress (might have been just a coincidence).

Have a look and see if their business is registered on CRO.. look at directors names and see what they own(ed) also.

Ginger83

evolving_doors wrote: »

We nearly went the legal route on something similar and got as far as paying for engineers report/registered letters.
Decided to check out the tradesmans busineds details to apply for small claims court.
Turns out the guy/wife/sons had more companies disolved than you could shake a stick at... and he'd just dissolved again after we sent the registered letters seeking redress (might have been just a coincidence).

Have a look and see if their business is registered on CRO.. look at directors names and see what they own(ed) also.

I will check that, thank you.

the_pen_turner

its hard for us to judge a situation properly without seeing and know the whole story
sounds like there are more issues.

going legal is abut all you can do.

whats wrong with the walls. why arnt they meeting regs

Ginger83

the_pen_turner wrote: »

its hard for us to judge a situation properly without seeing and know the whole story
sounds like there are more issues.

going legal is abut all you can do.

whats wrong with the walls. why arnt they meeting regs

The insulated slabs are not thick enough to achieve the U value to meeting building regulations.

How could this be fixed?

I dont get what your getting at...we employed a builder, got a price for a build, and now the roof wasnt done correctly, walls dont meet regs and rads are 55%-60% of what they should be.

the_pen_turner

this is the first you mentioned the slabs not being thick enough.
all I'm saying is that its hard for us to understand you situation with out seeing in person. we can only go by what you type.


no real way around the slabs not being thick enough.
that's a huge job to rectify.


the thickness of the slabs isn't whats making your house freezing though . its not helping.
if the insulation is fixed above the wall plate it should improve hugly

Ginger83

the_pen_turner wrote: »

this is the first you mentioned the slabs not being thick enough.
all I'm saying is that its hard for us to understand you situation with out seeing in person. we can only go by what you type.


no real way around the slabs not being thick enough.
that's a huge job to rectify.


the thickness of the slabs isn't whats making your house freezing though . its not helping.
if the insulation is fixed above the wall plate it should improve hugly

I did say in my 1st post that the walls dont meet building regulations.

To meet regs a minimum of a 52.5mm insulated slab is required. We have 37.5mm slabs.

It faces north too so better than minimum should have probably been used.

BryanF

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=105658146

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057711099&page=2

I thought the cavity was pumped, along with the insulated slab?

Ginger83

BryanF wrote: »

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=105658146

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057711099&page=2

I thought the cavity was pumped, along with the insulated slab?

Hi yes it was pumped (100mm) and then a 37.5mm slab put on the inside leaf but a 52.5mm is required to meet regulations.

Dardania

If it was insulated adequately, would the radiators be adaquete for the heat loss then?

sydthebeat

Ginger83 wrote: »

Hi yes it was pumped (100mm) and then a 37.5mm slab put on the inside leaf but a 52.5mm is required to meet regulations.

who told you this? have they put it on offical paper for you?

100mm pumped (lets assume grey bead) with a 37.5mm slab 9lets assume PIR insulation) should give you a u value of about 0.19 / 0.2

thats actually beyond the minimum u value required by regs.
(0.21 u value min as per table 1 of TGD L 2017)

maybe he used white bead and a polystyrene slab?

Ginger83

Dardania wrote: »

If it was insulated adequately, would the radiators be adaquete for the heat loss then?

I'm not 100% sure. I had a plumber and plumbing supply company both say all rads are too small.

Lumen

Ginger83 wrote: »

I'm not 100% sure. I had a plumber and plumbing supply company both say all rads are too small.

If it won't get/stay warm and the rads being fed properly then either the rads are too small for the building or the building is too leaky for the rads!

You can argue it either way.