Question from a non-farmer about farm payments.

beveragelady

This question stems from a suggestion I received over in the legal discussion forum. I am asking from a position of absolute ignorance, I'm not even sure what to ask. I'm not sure what I mean when I talk about payments below. Please be patient!

Would a farmer claim for payments on all the land he farms? It doesn't really matter what sort of payment, (although, probably not anything to do with forestry). In this example, if the land was used for grazing cattle, would a farmer definitely include it in applications for payment? Is there any reason he mightn't?

I'm under the impression that acreage is taken into account when making applications, am I wrong?

Do the dept of ag ask for proof of ownership or a lease agreement or anything before paying out?

I hope you're able to make some sense of this. I'll try to clarify if there are any other details that might help.

yellow50HX

beveragelady wrote: »

This question stems from a suggestion I received over in the legal discussion forum. I am asking from a position of absolute ignorance, I'm not even sure what to ask. I'm not sure what I mean when I talk about payments below. Please be patient!

Would a farmer claim for payments on all the land he farms? It doesn't really matter what sort of payment, (although, probably not anything to do with forestry). In this example, if the land was used for grazing cattle, would a farmer definitely include it in applications for payment? Is there any reason he mightn't?

I'm under the impression that acreage is taken into account when making applications, am I wrong?

Do the dept of ag ask for proof of ownership or a lease agreement or anything before paying out?

I hope you're able to make some sense of this. I'll try to clarify if there are any other details that might help.

There are several payment schemes in farming but I am assuming you are talking about the single farm payment which is based on acreage. In basic term yes all land that is to b included for an application must include all land (owned or leased)

beveragelady

yellow50HX wrote: »

There are several payment schemes in farming but I am assuming you are talking about the single farm payment which is based on acreage. In basic term yes all land that is to b included for an application must include all land (owned or leased)

Thanks very much for that. Is the single farm payment something every single farmer applies for? Would there be any reason why a farmer might exclude a patch of land from an application?

blue5000

beveragelady wrote: »

This question stems from a suggestion I received over in the legal discussion forum. I am asking from a position of absolute ignorance, I'm not even sure what to ask. I'm not sure what I mean when I talk about payments below. Please be patient!

Would a farmer claim for payments on all the land he farms? It doesn't really matter what sort of payment, (although, probably not anything to do with forestry). In this example, if the land was used for grazing cattle, would a farmer definitely include it in applications for payment? Is there any reason he mightn't?

I'm under the impression that acreage is taken into account when making applications, am I wrong?

Do the dept of ag ask for proof of ownership or a lease agreement or anything before paying out?

I hope you're able to make some sense of this. I'll try to clarify if there are any other details that might help.

Would a farmer claim for payments on all the land he farms? Usually yes.

if the land was used for grazing cattle, would a farmer definitely include it in applications for payment? Is there any reason he mightn't?

Again usually yes, commonage might be a possible exception.

I'm under the impression that acreage is taken into account when making applications, am I wrong? Yes, acerage based.

Do the dept of ag ask for proof of ownership or a lease agreement or anything before paying out?

I'm not 100% sure on this one, as at this stage everyone getting paid now has been applying for years, can you tell us a bit more?

beveragelady

OK, here's the sitch.
I'm not a farmer but I own a plot of land that's separate from the house, about 1.3ha. A friendly local farmer is pretending he thinks it's his, even though I'm 100% sure he knows he doesn't own it. He has tried a few heavy-handed tactics to encourage me to give up on it. This chap has not a pleasant character, he's a notorious chancer with a history of fraudulent dealings.

When somebody in the legal discussion forum mentioned farm payments I had an epiphany. If I can show that he hasn't been making claims for farm payments including that land then that would confirm that he knows it doesn't belong to him. If I can point this out to him with confidence then he'll have to back off.

The next time he stops me on the road to shout at me for trespassing in MY OWN field I'd love to be able to say calmly "Look, if you're so convinced you own it, then why haven't you been including it in your application for single farm payments?" If I said that would it sound like I knew what I was talking about? Should I add something more specific? Help...?

Base price

Do you have a deed in your name to this land?

Reggie.

Base price wrote: »

Do you have a deed in your name to this land?

Or at least the portfolio that shows the land and house parcel together

croot

beveragelady wrote: »

OK, here's the sitch.
I'm not a farmer but I own a plot of land that's separate from the house, about 1.3ha. A friendly local farmer is pretending he thinks it's his, even though I'm 100% sure he knows he doesn't own it. He has tried a few heavy-handed tactics to encourage me to give up on it. This chap has not a pleasant character, he's a notorious chancer with a history of fraudulent dealings.

When somebody in the legal discussion forum mentioned farm payments I had an epiphany. If I can show that he hasn't been making claims for farm payments including that land then that would confirm that he knows it doesn't belong to him. If I can point this out to him with confidence then he'll have to back off.

The next time he stops me on the road to shout at me for trespassing in MY OWN field I'd love to be able to say calmly "Look, if you're so convinced you own it, then why haven't you been including it in your application for single farm payments?" If I said that would it sound like I knew what I was talking about? Should I add something more specific? Help...?

It is certainly used as a criteria in adverse possession if the person claiming the land can show they have been claiming the Single Farm payment on this land without interruption.

I'd imagine you could also make the opposite case in that if this guy thought the land was his how come he didn't claim for it.

beveragelady

Adverse possession is indeed my concern, long term, although it would go against the grain for him to do things the legal way.

I have all the deeds, (well, the bank has them) it's all there in the land registry, it's all cut and dried. As I said before, he's pretending to think he owns it in the hope I'll be too intimidated to do anything. He knows he doesn't own it, he knows he has no proof, he knows I own it, he knows I have the deeds. He just wants me to leave it.

If the consensus is that it's safe to assume that every farmer uses every acre of land in applications for relevant payments then I have the information I need. I'm wary of continuing this thread because I have another thread running on the same topic elsewhere.

Mods, unless somebody has something to add that suggests I'm wrong, this thread can close.

Reggie.

beveragelady wrote: »

Adverse possession is indeed my concern, long term, although it would go against the grain for him to do things the legal way.

I have all the deeds, (well, the bank has them) it's all there in the land registry, it's all cut and dried. As I said before, he's pretending to think he owns it in the hope I'll be too intimidated to do anything. He knows he doesn't own it, he knows he has no proof, he knows I own it, he knows I have the deeds. He just wants me to leave it.

If the consensus is that it's safe to assume that every farmer uses every acre of land in applications for relevant payments then I have the information I need. I'm wary of continuing this thread because I have another thread running on the same topic elsewhere.

Mods, unless somebody has something to add that suggests I'm wrong, this thread can close.

I know the FIL here doesn't claim all his land here as there are some small areas maybe 1 or 2 acres in size that was rough ground and couldn't be classed as grazing ground so no SFP could be claimed of it

Siamsa Sessions

beveragelady wrote: »

OK, here's the sitch.
I'm not a farmer but I own a plot of land that's separate from the house, about 1.3ha. A friendly local farmer is pretending he thinks it's his, even though I'm 100% sure he knows he doesn't own it. He has tried a few heavy-handed tactics to encourage me to give up on it. This chap has not a pleasant character, he's a notorious chancer with a history of fraudulent dealings.

When somebody in the legal discussion forum mentioned farm payments I had an epiphany. If I can show that he hasn't been making claims for farm payments including that land then that would confirm that he knows it doesn't belong to him. If I can point this out to him with confidence then he'll have to back off.

The next time he stops me on the road to shout at me for trespassing in MY OWN field I'd love to be able to say calmly "Look, if you're so convinced you own it, then why haven't you been including it in your application for single farm payments?" If I said that would it sound like I knew what I was talking about? Should I add something more specific? Help...?

Sorry to hear you're in this situation. It's not pleasant when I'm sure you've plenty other things to be getting on with.

Here's my understanding if it helps: for the single farm payment, you need to own 'entitlements'. Farmers received these when various schemes were amalgamated in a previous CAP. 'Entitlements' are then 'activated' on the land; e.g. you need three acres to activate three entitlements, and all going well, you'll then be paid for your three entitlements.

Not much trading of entitlements goes on now, but there was some sale of them between farmers a few years back. Suffice to say there's no direct connection between the amount of land you have and the number of entitlements you own. Therefore, that neighbour might be using your field but not including it on his 'area aid' form if he has no entitlements to activate on it. Alternatively, if he has a high stocking rate, he may be including it anyway to help avoid issues with the amount of nitrates he's producing.

Tis complicated and probably warrants legal advice. But it might soften his cough if you mention 'area aid' and 'single farm payments' the next time you see him.

patsy_mccabe

Has this guy been farming this land all along?
Remember that the boundries with the land registry are notoriously inaccurate. For example, 1/3 of a field we have is showing up as part of two neighboring house sites, even though there is a mature ditch defining teh boundry. We have also claimed for the entire field under the single payment.

I also bought a small bit of land recently and the land as sold to me by the auctioneer included another small piece of neighbouring land that was never farmed by the seller in living memory. When I went to the current occupier of this small piece of land, I thought he'd shoot me when I asked him was it his.:)

beveragelady

Thanks again for all the input. I'm not going to rehash the sorry details of the whole thing here, but but I inherited a bit of a feud situation when I bought this land. This chap is bearing grudges against people who are dead and gone and who have nothing to do with me anyway, but he sees me as the problem because I live in this house.

_Brian

Seems to me this guy may have been claiming BPS on this parcel and perhaps is getting a bit anxious he might get caught out and so have to repay what has been claimed..

However, I'm not aware of any way OP can find out 100% that this is the case.

I think OP will need a solicitor to take the ownership issue up with the "gentleman" in question.

patsy_mccabe

Just to clarify, just because you have deeds to a piece of land, it doesnt mean that the land is yours. Be careful with this individual. He may well believe that the land is genuinely his, especially if he has been farming the land all along.

yellow50HX

Might be worth getting the FRS out and fencing off your land.

I know of a similar case close to where I live where a chancer used to move the fence between his and his neighbours. Because the house was rented for years he would move it before to new people moved in. When the owners son went to build on the site there was a bit of a stand off until he was challenged to show the deeds.

Base price

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Just to clarify, just because you have deeds to a piece of land, it doesnt mean that the land is yours. Be careful with this individual. He may well believe that the land is genuinely his, especially if he has been farming the land all along.

Patsy, what type of situation could you give as an example where the deeds are in your name but you don't own the land. Other than a mortgage/bank involvement I'm trying to think of one but can't.

Limestone Cowboy

Base price wrote: »

Patsy, what type of situation could you give as an example where the deeds are in your name but you don't own the land. Other than a mortgage/bank involvement I'm trying to think of one but can't.

There's a lot of small plots of land around that were never transferred properly. I know my grandfather swapped a small piece of ground with a neighbour 70-80 years ago and that both pieces are still in our folio maps.

Base price

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

There's a lot of small plots of land around that were never transferred properly. I know my grandfather swapped a small piece of ground with a neighbour 70-80 years ago and that both pieces are still in our folio maps.

Its ok until you go to sell the land and then it becomes complicated.
I assume the OP's solicitor conducted a land search (I think its called) before buying.

patsy_mccabe

Base price wrote: »

Patsy, what type of situation could you give as an example where the deeds are in your name but you don't own the land. Other than a mortgage/bank involvement I'm trying to think of one but can't.

Well in my case with the piece of land I bought, I think the following happened. Originally the land was tringular in shape. The tip of the triangle, about 1/3 of an acre was cut off by a drainage trence dug by the bord of works (now OPW) about 100 years ago. Looking at maps down throught the years, this seems to be the case. Officially the land never changed ownership and all maps since had the cut off part still on the same portfolia. The neighbouring farmer grazed the 1/3 acre for generations.
So who owns the land? The person grazing it for years or the person registered as owner with the land registry.

beveragelady

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Well in my case with the piece of land I bought, I think the following happened. Originally the land was tringular in shape. The tip of the triangle, about 1/3 of an acre was cut off by a drainage trence dug by the bord of works (now OPW) about 100 years ago. Looking at maps down throught the years, this seems to be the case. Officially the land never changed ownership and all maps since had the cut off part still on the same portfolia. The neighbouring farmer grazed the 1/3 acre for generations.
So who owns the land? The person grazing it for years or the person registered as owner with the land registry.

From my current besieged perspective I'd definitely say the person who bought and paid for it!

patsy_mccabe

beveragelady wrote: »

From my current besieged perspective I'd definitely say the person who bought and paid for it!

No sorry, you are wrong. I don't own it. I did not transfer it over to my name. My solicitor advised me not to do so. The person grazing it could claim squatter rights anyway.

Hard Knocks

OP, if I was you I would go to an Agricultural Advisor & get them to look up your plot & see if anyone has claimed payment on it over the last few years

There could be a cost of €50+ but would give you an understanding

beveragelady

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

No sorry, you are wrong. I don't own it. I did not transfer it over to my name. My solicitor advised me not to do so. The person grazing it could claim squatter rights anyway.

Then you decided to renounce your claim to it, but that was after you had bought it. Probably the right thing to do under those circumstances, and no doubt the current land registry maps reflect your decision.
A very different situation to mine.

Water John

I presume, squatters rights is formalised by activating adverse possession, in legal terms.. So, if whoever has been using a piece of land, unchallenged, for a certain period of time they can apply for, adverse possession, a la Pat Kenny. I presume, claiming any Dept of Ag payments, attached to that land, would be part of the evidence.

Bass Reeves

OP checking SFP or if he included it for such etc still prooves nothing. For to claim adverse possession (squatters rights) one has to fullfil some basic requirements. You have to have full uses of the lands( for 12 continious years I think), you have to knowingly decided to make that claim, to have made improvments to the land and to have decides not to recognize the person who owns the land right to it.

If you have the deeds to it I would as follows fence it in, start getting it cleaned up and wait for him to make a move. If he trys in any way to interfere with your possession you send him a solicitor's letter. However if he has had unfettered access to it for longer than the time limit(12 years I think) he can claim adverse possession. However he has to have fullfilled the other obligations. Remember that possession is 9/10 of the law.

Him having claimed SFP or not will not be a deciding factor IMO. The time limit is the big challenge and having made improvments to the land ( this could be as simple as topping the land or cleaning scrub. Without knowing the full details I be inclined to take possession and force the issue.

patsy_mccabe

So OP, you bought a house and the land in question?
Was this individual farming the land all along, and if so for how long?

Sorry, but I still don't have a clear picture of what's going on here.

beveragelady

Mods, I have the information I needed about farm payments, and some very helpful advice too. I'm not going to give further details of the situation so I think the thread can be closed.
Thanks again to everybody who answered my questions.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Mod note: As per OPs request, I'll close the thread. Thanks to all for your contributions here.

Buford T. Justice