Heating System in Council House

ShaShaBear

Just asking for a friend - what is the minimum standard of "heating" that must be provided to a council house? House in question is a relatively new build with only a back boiler to serve as heating. No oil or gas. Tenants asked for another option and were refused. They are having trouble getting access to coal and have young children.
Is heat by fire adequate according to the Council?

Cuddlesworth

ShaShaBear wrote: »

Just asking for a friend - what is the minimum standard of "heating" that must be provided to a council house? House in question is a relatively new build with only a back boiler to serve as heating. No oil or gas. Tenants asked for another option and were refused. They are having trouble getting access to coal and have young children.
Is heat by fire adequate according to the Council?

In theory, she rents from the council with a subsidy. So her standards should be the same as those required by renters. So find the council she rents from, get their minimum standards from their site and quote and link them when responding. Then ask for a inspection.

Eg, fingal county council.

A fixed heating appliance in each room, which is capable of providing effective heating and which the tenant can control

Dun Laoghaire

http://www.dlrcoco.ie/sites/default/files/atoms/files/article_7_0.pdf

All habitable rooms must contain a fixed appliance (or appliances) capable of
providing effective heating.

seamus

If it's a relatively new build then it may have been built to standards that do indeed allow for a stove back boiler to provide adequate heating along with maximum air tightness and solar panels for hot water.

You'd need to know the full details of the house's construction to be able to say whether it's sufficient.

When you say she has trouble getting access to coal, has she looked at alternatives like wood pellets?

Askthe EA

A modern house with back boiler only??? Surely not.

ShaShaBear

Askthe EA wrote: »

A modern house with back boiler only??? Surely not.

I would have thought the same, but apparently all the houses in this small cul-de-sac are all back boiler only for heating both water and the radiators.

ShaShaBear

seamus wrote: »

If it's a relatively new build then it may have been built to standards that do indeed allow for a stove back boiler to provide adequate heating along with maximum air tightness and solar panels for hot water.

You'd need to know the full details of the house's construction to be able to say whether it's sufficient.

When you say she has trouble getting access to coal, has she looked at alternatives like wood pellets?

The issue is that no-one in the house drives, so they rely on delivery. The only person delivering to her area has retired, and the only other person she has found so far requires a hefty order for delivery, and she has nowhere to store half of it!

thereality

ShaShaBear wrote: »

The issue is that no-one in the house drives, so they rely on delivery. The only person delivering to her area has retired, and the only other person she has found so far requires a hefty order for delivery, and she has nowhere to store half of it!

There was a thread on bargain alerts about being able to order coal from the North using a courier

Mrs OBumble

ShaShaBear wrote: »

The issue is that no-one in the house drives, so they rely on delivery. The only person delivering to her area has retired, and the only other person she has found so far requires a hefty order for delivery, and she has nowhere to store half of it!

Can she do a deal with a neighbour?

How does she get regular groceries home?

Doltanian

thereality wrote: »

There was a thread on bargain alerts about being able to order coal from the North using a courier

Apparently they are shipping low quality bad coal, I considered it too but the recent negative reviews put me off.

ShaShaBear

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Can she do a deal with a neighbour?

How does she get regular groceries home?

Tesco :pac:

seamus

Tesco sells coal and briquettes

May not be the cheapest though.

They could also get a trolley like this specifically for bringing the coal back-and-forth.

Though if she's on a road where all the houses are the same, it seems like having a deal going with a few neighbours is a good idea, where they all pitch in to split a bulk delivery between them. Everyone wins.

jimmycrackcorm

Cuddlesworth wrote:

A fixed heating appliance in each room, which is capable of providing effective heating and which the tenant can control

Which can be a radiator with a valve.

Cuddlesworth

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Which can be a radiator with a valve.

Can be. In this case, the person seems picky or unwilling to look at their options. In a really modern house, you can heat them with a oil filled rad.

ShaShaBear

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Can be. In this case, the person seems picky or unwilling to look at their options. In a really modern house, you can heat them with a oil filled rad.

I wouldn't say living in a rural area with no means to travel is what you'd call picky :pac:

As for Tesco, I had no idea they sold coal, neither did she. In fact, can't find it when I go to do my own online shopping.

ted1

ShaShaBear wrote: »

Askthe EA wrote: »

A modern house with back boiler only??? Surely not.

I would have thought the same, but apparently all the houses in this small cul-de-sac are all back boiler only for heating both water and the radiators.

Part L of the building regulations would not allow this. Are you sure that there is not solar heating or similar

ShaShaBear

ted1 wrote: »

Part L of the building regulations would not allow this. Are you sure that there is not solar heating or similar

100% sure, I've been to and inside the house several times now. It's a back boiler that heats her radiators and water.

ted1

What type of boiler is it? Wood chipings?
Look up the planning permission, I find it very hard to believe that it meets the building requirements

ShaShaBear

ted1 wrote: »

What type of boiler is it? Wood chipings?
Look up the planning permission, I find it very hard to believe that it meets the building requirements

Back boiler built in behind a regular fireplace for coal.
Neither of us know any more than that. She rang the council and asked would it be possible to get OFCH in and they said what she had was sufficient. I'm more curious in fairness, wasn't sure what qualified as basic heating!

ted1

ShaShaBear wrote: »

ted1 wrote: »

What type of boiler is it? Wood chipings?
Look up the planning permission, I find it very hard to believe that it meets the building requirements

Back boiler built in behind a regular fireplace for coal.
Neither of us know any more than that. She rang the council and asked would it be possible to get OFCH in and they said what she had was sufficient. I'm more curious in fairness, wasn't sure what qualified as basic heating!

It doesn’t meet the planning requirements, ring the local planning office. Tell them that you are building a house and you want to check if the set up matches the requirements when they say no, then tell them about it. And lodge a complaint

Gatling

ShaShaBear wrote: »

Back boiler built in behind a regular fireplace for coal.
Neither of us know any more than that. She rang the council and asked would it be possible to get OFCH in and they said what she had was sufficient. I'm more curious in fairness, wasn't sure what qualified as basic heating!

It's odd being a lot of local authorities put gas and upgraded Better heating into properties over the last 10 years ,in various programs

ted1

The guys here are more knowledgeable, they’ll confirm

https://www.boards.ie/b/forum/1626

jimmycrackcorm

ShaShaBear wrote:

Back boiler built in behind a regular fireplace for coal. Neither of us know any more than that. She rang the council and asked would it be possible to get OFCH in and they said what she had was sufficient. I'm more curious in fairness, wasn't sure what qualified as basic heating!

The regulations simply state that the open fire and boiler must have a minimum efficiency of 50 percent.
There are also minimum insulation standards.

But you're wrong thinking that there should be an alternative source of heating provided. A single form of heating isn't unusual. I like many in Dublin have a house that only has heating and hot water from a Gas boiler.

Just because natural gas is more convenient than solid fuel doesn't make it the councils responsibility. Though I can certainly emphasize when my boiler broke down and I had neither heat nor hot water for a few days.

BarryD2

Setup sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Live in house heated by solid fuel that runs rads and heats hot water and it's fine. It is true that solid fuel is a bit more work than oil or gas but sure a little bit of work never hurt anybody in reasonable health.

Like many I grew up in a house that had just one room heated in the winter and the rest were freezing and it never did us a bit of harm, so having rads etc. is luxury

People are getting fierce soft in recent times!

ShaShaBear

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

The regulations simply state that the open fire and boiler must have a minimum efficiency of 50 percent.
There are also minimum insulation standards.

But you're wrong thinking that there should be an alternative source of heating provided. A single form of heating isn't unusual. I like many in Dublin have a house that only has heating and hot water from a Gas boiler.

Just because natural gas is more convenient than solid fuel doesn't make it the councils responsibility. Though I can certainly emphasize when my boiler broke down and I had neither heat nor hot water for a few days.

Oh no, I don't believe that there should be an "alternative" provided. A singular source is fine. I just thought that relying on coal might be a little iffy as opposed to gas. In her previous property, she had only gas heating. In my own current property, I only have OFCH.
They live in a smaller county and in a rural village within it. Nearest big down is a half hour's drive. She's obviously trying to find a solution to make sure the kids don't freeze if she can't get access to coal. I asked her to speak to neighbours (she's only new in the area herself) and she said she would. The thread was more about my obvious ignorance on the subject as I thought relying purely on coal to heat a council house was a bit baffling in this day and age. I remember my grandmother in a council house with no oil or gas and a pipe froze over while she was in hospital for a few days and her whole ceiling came in! At least with oil or gas, you can have it on timer to keep everything ticking over!

ShaShaBear

BarryD2 wrote: »

Setup sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Live in house heated by solid fuel that runs rads and heats hot water and it's fine. It is true that solid fuel is a bit more work than oil or gas but sure a little bit of work never hurt anybody in reasonable health.

Like many I grew up in a house that had just one room heated in the winter and the rest were freezing and it never did us a bit of harm, so having rads etc. is luxury

People are getting fierce soft in recent times!

I have two asthmatic daughters and one with an underlying condition and I can assure you, I don't consider having all the rooms in my house warm a "luxury". A freezing cold house can lead to structural issues, as well as affecting the health of those living in it.

BarryD2

ShaShaBear wrote: »

I have two asthmatic daughters and one with an underlying condition and I can assure you, I don't consider having all the rooms in my house warm a "luxury". A freezing cold house can lead to structural issues, as well as affecting the health of those living in it.

A freezing cold house does not lead to structural issues as long as it's watertight. I'm in my 50s and know lots of people who grew up in non centrally heated houses. In fact, some say that modern central heating is linked to the growth of illnesses connected with modern life inc respiratory complaints.

Not that I'd do without it now, it's good to be able to put a bit of heat into all rooms. But neither do we go around the house in tee shirts all day long in mid winter.

Anyway on topic, solid fuel is a bit more work than oil or gas but that's all. What may have more impact on your friend, are government plans to bring in more carbon taxes and ban cheaper types of coal. This will have more impact on rural dwellers than urbanites.

I'd suggest that she gets to know a few neighbours and either pool delivery of coal etc., or arranges with them to help if they have cars. Other than that, it's just a wee bit more work.

ShaShaBear

BarryD2 wrote: »

I'd suggest that she gets to know a few neighbours and either pool delivery of coal etc., or arranges with them to help if they have cars. Other than that, it's just a wee bit more work.

I've suggested that and she's going to approach her next door neigbour as its the only one she knows halfway well at this stage. As for the work, she has no issue lighting a fire daily and keeping it lit. But if she cannot get coal delivered reliably, then she simply cannot light the fire. It's not a wee bit more work, it's absolutely no heat or hot water. We've driven up to her with two bags in the meantime but unfortunately it looks like she's either going to have to come up with a deal with the neighbours or find somewhere in her house to store a ridiculous amount of coal :pac:

Mrs OBumble

ShaShaBear wrote: »

Back boiler built in behind a regular fireplace for coal.
Neither of us know any more than that. She rang the council and asked would it be possible to get OFCH in and they said what she had was sufficient. I'm more curious in fairness, wasn't sure what qualified as basic heating!

OFCh is a disaster for social housing situations: People get a load of oil delivered, a few days later it gets nicked, and they can't afford to replace it. So they end up buying small amounts (which have to be carried home) and topping up the tank with them, and sooner or later sludge gets stirred up and goes into the boiler and it eventually breaks down. The council accuses them of tipping the tank. A fight ensues.

If she really wants a backup, buy two portable oil-filled electric heaters with thermostats and timers. Use one to heat the living area. Shortly before bed-time, use the other to heat the bedroom for a short time. After the kids have gone to bed, move it to the adults bedroom, and repeat. Use the timer to heat the bedroom for a few minutes before getting up in the morning.

And keep looking for other coal merchants, or local options for delivery. Worst case, ask the local VdP if they know someone with a car who would do the occasional delivery trip (they will - this is not a new problem).

BarryD2

What is a 'ridiculous' amount of coal? Round here, local merchants are happy to deliver 10 bags and less. If there's a garden out back, then a coal bunker would be best solution, the council might ever provide one if she asks? This type of thing. https://www.coopsuperstores.ie/Fuel--Heating/Fuel-Storage/Coal-Bunkers?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIuPDFvY2_2AIVSbftCh1SQQpVEAAYASAAEgKf7PD_BwE

Safer too than keeping oil in a tank. Fair bit of shoveling needed to rob a coal bunker and the type of people robbing fuel these days wouldn't be into that. Definitely safer loose in a bunker than storing bags that can be lifted up and thrown in the back of a van..

ShaShaBear

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

OFCh is a disaster for social housing situations: People get a load of oil delivered, a few days later it gets nicked, and they can't afford to replace it. So they end up buying small amounts (which have to be carried home) and topping up the tank with them, and sooner or later sludge gets stirred up and goes into the boiler and it eventually breaks down. The council accuses them of tipping the tank. A fight ensues.

If she really wants a backup, buy two portable oil-filled electric heaters with thermostats and timers. Use one to heat the living area. Shortly before bed-time, use the other to heat the bedroom for a short time. After the kids have gone to bed, move it to the adults bedroom, and repeat. Use the timer to heat the bedroom for a few minutes before getting up in the morning.

And keep looking for other coal merchants, or local options for delivery. Worst case, ask the local VdP if they know someone with a car who would do the occasional delivery trip (they will - this is not a new problem).

Not a bad idea RE the portable rads, we actually have one here so I'll offer her that! And also excellent idea regarding VdP, I never would have thought of that!
And I get it regarding the oil being stolen. This happened to us in one of our first rented houses about 5 years back and we were devastated. Once lived in a house with gas and honestly thought it was the bees knees!

ShaShaBear

BarryD2 wrote: »

What is a 'ridiculous' amount of coal? Round here, local merchants are happy to deliver 10 bags and less. If there's a garden out back, then a coal bunker would be best solution, the council might ever provide one if she asks? This type of thing. https://www.coopsuperstores.ie/Fuel--Heating/Fuel-Storage/Coal-Bunkers?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIuPDFvY2_2AIVSbftCh1SQQpVEAAYASAAEgKf7PD_BwE

Safer too than keeping oil in a tank. Fair bit of shoveling needed to rob a coal bunker and the type of people robbing fuel these days wouldn't be into that. Definitely safer loose in a bunker than storing bags that can be lifted up and thrown in the back of a van..

The only person delivering will do minimum 10 bags, and she hasn't even got enough space in her yard for 5. She's been looking at tall coal bunkers because she'd not fit a wide one and doesnt really want to leave a few bags out in the wet (she can get two bags into her chute and buckets and keeps them in her utility)

LirW

Recently moved into a rural village myself. Definitely ask the neighbors about fuel merchants, there are some around that you wouldn't find online or in the Golden pages. Also local Buy and Sell groups, sometimes there are people on there that sell solid fuel quite cheap and do delivery. If not, you can at least ask there.
The local people are key, they have the knowledge and probably her neighbors will face similar issues I assume.

ShaShaBear

LirW wrote: »

Recently moved into a rural village myself. Definitely ask the neighbors about fuel merchants, there are some around that you wouldn't find online or in the Golden pages. Also local Buy and Sell groups, sometimes there are people on there that sell solid fuel quite cheap and do delivery. If not, you can at least ask there.
The local people are key, they have the knowledge and probably her neighbors will face similar issues I assume.

FB buy and sell, that's an excellent idea!

Thanks guys, some good alternatives and options for her!

ted1

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

ShaShaBear wrote:

Back boiler built in behind a regular fireplace for coal. Neither of us know any more than that. She rang the council and asked would it be possible to get OFCH in and they said what she had was sufficient. I'm more curious in fairness, wasn't sure what qualified as basic heating!

The regulations simply state that the open fire and boiler must have a minimum efficiency of 50 percent.
There are also minimum insulation standards.

But you're wrong thinking that there should be an alternative source of heating provided. A single form of heating isn't unusual. I like many in Dublin have a house that only has heating and hot water from a Gas boiler.

Just because natural gas is more convenient than solid fuel doesn't make it the councils responsibility. Though I can certainly emphasize when my boiler broke down and I had neither heat nor hot water for a few days.

Are you sure? I can’t see anything in the regs that backs up your claim , have you a reference?
http://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,27316,en.pdf

Part l3b states there has to be a renewable source.
“providing that, for new dwellings, a reasonable proportion of the energy consumption to meet the energy performance of a dwelling is provided by renewable energy sources;”


L3e states “providing that all oil and gas fired boilers shall meet a minimum seasonal efficiency of 90%;”


And 1.2.3 states”In the case of systems based on biofuels or biomass, appliances must be designed to run on these fuels only, i.e. incapable of providing thermal energy from fossil fuels, to be accepted as renewable technology for the purposes of this Regulation. For example, a boiler which could operate on either oil or a biofuel mixture would not be considered to be a renewable technology. Similarly a boiler capable of utilizing coal or peat, in addition to a biomass fuel would not be considered a renewable technology.“