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Good news for centrefire pistol owners.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sparks


    That's the Times getting facts wrong. Which once upon a time would have been surprising :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 991 ✭✭✭ Gorgeousgeorge


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Ahem...I hate to tell you this ...But it is the biggest load of an idea.It has been proven to be an utter waste of time in resources in both Germany and the USA.Maryland tried it and dumped it after a decade, when it was proven NOT ONE gun crime was solved by having a database like this.The German BKA dumped theirs in the mid-1980s,as being too expensive to maintain, and solving zero gun crime as well.Change the barrel, firing pin, ejector, extractor, bolt face, and sometimes the mag, and you have destroyed the ballistic evidence of the gun used.Yes, it came from, say a Glock, but which one of the millions out there.

    Eyesight, away to Specsavers with you my friend.:)The targets don't get any easier to hit with CF if your eyesight is bad.:D

    Ahem. As i said i dont know if it would work but i read a good article on it. As for the rest of your post i didnt bother to flick through.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭ meathstevie


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Ahem...I hate to tell you this ...But it is the biggest load of an idea.It has been proven to be an utter waste of time in resources in both Germany and the USA.Maryland tried it and dumped it after a decade, when it was proven NOT ONE gun crime was solved by having a database like this.The German BKA dumped theirs in the mid-1980s,as being too expensive to maintain, and solving zero gun crime as well.Change the barrel, firing pin, ejector, extractor, bolt face, and sometimes the mag, and you have destroyed the ballistic evidence of the gun used.Yes, it came from, say a Glock, but which one of the millions out there.

    Eyesight, away to Specsavers with you my friend.:)The targets don't get any easier to hit with CF if your eyesight is bad.:D


    It could still have merit considering it would only ever be a relatively small number of firearms in Ireland. Physical evidence from different scenes and incidents could be linked and all of a sudden you'd be left with fairly well defined and realistic forensic strategy.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,628 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    I read an article or two a few years back about ballistic testing. While i cannot remember the exact numbers they broke it down like this.
    • With a given number of known firearms (they had the pistols/rifles and ammo they tested there) and ammo they could only match the bullet to the firearm 61% of the time. The bullet was pristine each time and the gun and round/bullet were recorded so they knew which gun fired which bullet.
    • When they changed to blind checks (they didn't know which gun fired what bullet) the matches fell dramatically.
    • When they changed ammo and tried it against misformed bullets (they way they would be when fired at an object/person) that number dropped significantly to almost single digits.
    They had better success matching firing pin strike marks than actual bullets. The program was so unreliable that i believe 5 different police forces stopped using it as the program had cost over $50 million to run and the returns were not helping improve the solve rate. Its the CSI effect.

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭ gunny123


    I thought ballistic testing was done here when the poo-storm kicked off in the north in the early 70's ? The father said all firearms were taken in, his .22 rifle included, a round fired through it and kept along with the details of the gun.

    Also, imho, if you have a gun, then you should have a safe, the fact it is a single shotgun should not matter, it is still a lethal weapon in the wrong hands.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,431 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    It could still have merit considering it would only ever be a relatively small number of firearms in Ireland. Physical evidence from different scenes and incidents could be linked and all of a sudden you'd be left with fairly well defined and realistic forensic strategy.

    So even in that group of lets say what we have now600+/- CF pistols in Ireland.[Less what some larger US gustores would have in inventory today].
    How will you control the import of;

    Fireing pins, or the making thereof at home? Ditto, extractors and ejectors? The simple fact of sending an emery cloth covered cleaning patch jig down the barrel to change the lands and grooves pattern? Tweaking the mag to change its forensic pattern. Making a smoothbore handgun barrel by a machinist to remove even that ballistic fingerprint?

    Even with few guns like we have here it would cost and be a phenomenal undertaking of storage of physical shells and imprints.Also, as a gun ages so does its mechanical and ballistic profile.So it would mean getting retested ever X number of years..

    Also, WHY the Hell should we?? There is still a presumption of innocence until proven guilty under Irish law...Just because my neighbour is shot and I have a handgun doesn't automatically mean I or anyone else with a legally held firearm did it. Are all AGS and military side arms ballistically tested and recorded too.....Just in case??No ,they are tested if and when an incident occurs to prove guilt or innocence of the party concerned..

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,628 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    gunny123 wrote: »
    I thought ballistic testing was done here when the poo-storm kicked off in the north in the early 70's ? The father said all firearms were taken in, his .22 rifle included, a round fired through it and kept along with the details of the gun.
    You mean the Temporary Custody Order of 1972? Not a chance that was done for ballistic testing. Most people never got their firearms back so no need to test a gun they [the government] had no intention of letting you license.

    They took in all the guns under whatever premise, but then refused to give them back without a license, which they would not issue. It wasn't until the early 90s that i seen anything over a 22 hornet.
    Also, imho, if you have a gun, then you should have a safe, the fact it is a single shotgun should not matter, it is still a lethal weapon in the wrong hands.
    Agree with this. Not for finger print, retinal scanner, time lock safes, but a simple safe regardless of the gun type and its peace of mind. The good thing is i think people, especially younger lads, are starting to think this way and getting them from the start,

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,431 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    gunny123 wrote: »
    I thought ballistic testing was done here when the poo-storm kicked off in the north in the early 70's ? The father said all firearms were taken in, his .22 rifle included, a round fired through it and kept along with the details of the gun.

    Also, imho, if you have a gun, then you should have a safe, the fact it is a single shotgun should not matter, it is still a lethal weapon in the wrong hands.

    Absolutely correct.I remember that one well in 1972, and I still might have the original order for my ol mans .22 rifle to be tested... Although I wonder did it ever solve ONE crime in NI or IRA related??:rolleyes:

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,628 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    . Making a smoothbore handgun barrel by a machinist to remove even that ballistic fingerprint?
    Not needed.

    The same article i referenced above says after so many hundreds or thousands of rounds most firearms did not resemble the original test shots kept on record.

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭ gunny123


    In every gangland hit now, the handgun is burnt along with the getaway car, makes ballistics a pointless exercise. The gun is brand new in the box before the crime, and is found cremated in the car afterwards.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 991 ✭✭✭ Gorgeousgeorge


    gunny123 wrote: »
    I thought ballistic testing was done here when the poo-storm kicked off in the north in the early 70's ? The father said all firearms were taken in, his .22 rifle included, a round fired through it and kept along with the details of the gun.

    Also, imho, if you have a gun, then you should have a safe, the fact it is a single shotgun should not matter, it is still a lethal weapon in the wrong hands.

    Amen. A trigger lock and safe should be mandatory.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,511 ✭✭✭✭ BattleCorp


    Chiparus wrote: »

    "The new measures included a requirement for owners of multiple guns to store them in different safes while individual shotguns must also be disassembled and the parts stored separately in a home."

    I have this condition for two of my guns. Two safes and guns disassembled and a bit in each. I know others with the same conditions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sparks


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    I have this condition for two of my guns. Two safes and guns disassembled and a bit in each. I know others with the same conditions.

    Individual licences can have those conditions imposed by your local licencing official; but they are not what the act requires and may not be imposed as blind preconditions, on the foot of the Supreme Court verdict in Dunne.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,628 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    A post from another thread reminded me of this thread and got me curious.

    Anyone try this yet?

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭ gunny123


    Cass wrote: »
    A post from another thread reminded me of this thread and got me curious.

    Anyone try this yet?

    You go first, i'll hold your coat and watch !


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,431 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    The famous line of when "wigs in the green" is imminent in Ireland " Go on!! ...We are all right BEHIND you!":pac::D
    Getting too old,for this "Here hold my beer and watch this!" malarkey.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,628 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    gunny123 wrote: »
    You go first, i'll hold your coat and watch !
    tenor.gif?itemid=9684526

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭ gunny123


    If things settle down on the fcp front, could the situation with the centrefire pistols not be brought up ? Even .32 target pistols for ISSF competitions first ? A gradual return rather than what happened previously, a court case and two months later, everyone and his missus had a glock or sig.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,628 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    It was a Beretta 92FS actually but i get your point.
    gunny123 wrote: »
    If things settle down on the fcp front, could the situation with the centrefire pistols not be brought up ?
    It could but it would require those claiming to represent pistol shooting to actually DO SOMETHING and not leave others to finance it or have to clean up the mess from whatever bastardised idea they come up with.
    Even .32 target pistols for ISSF competitions first ? A gradual return rather than what happened previously, a court case and two months later, everyone and his missus had a glock or sig.
    I won't say it's simple, but there is no need to start with a certain type and have to redo the legislation when/if they allow something else.

    At present the amending or repeal of SI21/2008 and its amending SI of 2009 would see C/F pistols back in all forms.

    The introduction of this SI was a knee jerk response, coupled with the inability to curb gangland shooting, to the killing of Shane Geoghegan. It done nothing to stem the importation of illegal guns, nothing to stop the use of them in murders, and not one legally held pistol was ever linked to any killing yet we got shafted.

    So if common sense can be applied, and some headway made on this SI we'd be a huge step back to "normality".

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭ gunny123


    Stop will ya, i will be window shopping online for another single stack 1911 :o


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,628 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    TBH it baffles me why no one has attempted to tackle this. It's been ten years and still not one crime can be linked to legally licensed/held pistol. I think it was Chief Super Healy in one of his rants said that because they cannot find the gun when a shooting occurs there is no way to prove it was not stolen. Well d'uh. However the lack of evidence is not proof of something else.

    Time and again we are the whipping boys for the political elite. When something even tentatively linked to legal sports shooting happens we are raked over the coals (and sometimes even when it has nothing to do with us) When we argue back we are called gun nuts and tasteless (this was when the suicide rate for firearms was discussed and the point of the last 5 or 6 suicides not being civilians) but like in America at the moment not one person can give a factual and "legitimate" reason for banning legally held firearms because of the actions of those that already live outside the law.

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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 315 ✭✭ Walter Mittys Brother


    Dream on ! There is no Minister going to put his/her name to a revision of that SI unless it's to take more stuff.

    The original pistol case that opened the flood gates was for an Olympic grade .22lr apparently.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,628 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    Dream on ! There is no Minister going to put his/her name to a revision of that SI unless it's to take more stuff.
    Don't i know it
    The original pistol case that opened the flood gates was for an Olympic grade .22lr apparently.
    The Brophy case wasn't it?

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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 315 ✭✭ Walter Mittys Brother


    Cass wrote: »
    The Brophy case wasn't it?

    Yep, that's the one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,431 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Put a solid enough case there and keeping it softly, softly just might get it repealed.However, it requires diplomacy and political unity of purpose.Something the shooting community and its organisational leadership is very much lacking.As well as a historical irrational fear by the PTB of handguns that is certainly ingrained in the AGS top brass.Who don't like to be proven wrong, and will do anything to stall out or obfuscate things they don't like as we all well know,and have seen happen.
    A gamble would be is if someone was rich[or daft] enough to go to the court on a refusal to issue on a possible discrimination point,or however it is termed legally to consider a CF pistol application under the 08 act.What makes a trustworthy citizen less acceptable to own a pistol post 08, when there are others out there that can?Are they more trustworthy because they are licensed before a certain date?There is surely case law on something like this here?

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sparks


    Cass wrote: »
    TBH it baffles me why no one has attempted to tackle this.
    Because when you're going around taking hundreds of high court cases, storming out of the FCP and paralysing everyone else from engaging with it, writing letters to Ministers and TDs that are at best ill-drafted and at worse belligerent, and generally running about screaming at the top of your lungs about how the entire system's corrupt and everyone has to be fired and making yourself not merely unpopular but un-workable-with, well, getting a Minister to draft an SI and sign it for you is going to be sortof difficult.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,004 ✭✭✭ Melodeon


    gunny123 wrote: »
    Even .32 target pistols for ISSF competitions first ?
    I remember back in the glory days when centrefire pistols were being licenced, being told that .25 and .32 stuff was viewed with a very leery eye as they were considered to be derringer/pocket-pistol calibres, and thus ranked up there with EBR's on the Fierce Dangerous Scale.
    I strongly suspect that this was based on 'advice' from a certain quarter in Garda HQ at the time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭ gunny123


    Sparks wrote: »
    Because when you're going around taking hundreds of high court cases, storming out of the FCP and paralysing everyone else from engaging with it, writing letters to Ministers and TDs that are at best ill-drafted and at worse belligerent, and generally running about screaming at the top of your lungs about how the entire system's corrupt and everyone has to be fired and making yourself not merely unpopular but un-workable-with, well, getting a Minister to draft an SI and sign it for you is going to be sortof difficult.

    Hopefully then we can get rid of the me feiners, chancers, gangsters and sundry undesirables off the fcp, then peace may break out, and fingers crossed, positive things may start to happen.

    Lot of "if's" there though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27 1349


    Cass wrote: »
    Yes it does, kinda.
    I was refused permission to change the slide on my 9mm, and after some arguing the conditions imposed were so ridiculous as to make it unworkable.

    Hi Cass,
    I'm not recommending that anyone do this, this is just a genuine question. If you had, prior to mentioning it to the Guards, purchased a slide and handed the 9mm into a restricted dealer to destroy the old slide and engrave the old s/n on the new slide would laws have been broken? If so which one(s)?

    Again don't do anything illegal, and don't do anything if you are not sure whether it is legal.


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,628 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    I didn't involve or notify the Gardaí ]local] because it didn't concern them. The dealings were with, and the issue i had, the DoJ, again. Anyway, from experience i know the local Gardaí would have been notified when the import was done.

    I wanted a new slide because my pistol has a weighted compensator on the muzzle. This makes the gun muzzle heavy with only 6 rounds in it. As the front sight is intergrated into the compensator removing it would leave me no way to aim. The only option was to get another slide, the length of the barrel and with the front sight attached.

    As such parts are not available here and have to be ordered i needed an import license (before anyone says my license is my permission, the manufacturer also demanded one). I applied for the license and this is when the fun started.

    They wanted me to remove my current slide, send it back to the manufacturer, have the manufacturer declare the slide faulty and in need of replacement, then when i got this letter submit it with my import application, and then and only then could i send off for the new slide.

    This created two problems for me. My current slide is not faulty and the manufacturer would have stated as much. Even if they did and i got the new slide, then i'm stuck with the pistol in its new configuration and the compensator and other parts for the pistol in its original format would be paperweights.

    It can be dressed up as whatever people like to call it but the simple fact is this. As a firearm owner for over 25 years my government, although giving me license for multiple firearms, did not trust me to order the slide for fear it would lead to me ordering in new "spare" parts and end up with the dreaded "Ghost Gun". God save me :rolleyes:

    I tried to find a replacement slide in country, but with the number of centrefire pistols currently in dealers in the low double digits, and with them being complete guns and not for parting that was a no go.

    I could go for a replacement slide and have the original and compensator declared damaged/faulty, but i'm not sure i want that yet so for the moment i shoot the gun as is.

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