Being forced to carry over holidays

WoolyJumper

Hi all, just a quick question. Im not long in this company but I have a few holidays owed to me. I asked if I could take them before the year end and was told that there was nothing available I could take and that my days would be carried over. I'm just wondering what the legality is of this. Am I legally entitled to take my holidays before the end of the working year (31st of Dec) or can they force me to carry forward my days without my consent/not let me take them this year given that there is only a limited amount of time I can take them

TheQuietFella

To be honest I wouldn't know the legal side of it but in my opinion you tried to pull a fast one!

SuperSean11

I’d say your contract will say that the busy holiday period is exempt from holidays as everyone would want it off.

WoolyJumper

Honestly not trying to pull a fast one. To be fair I asked them for those days off as soon as I started and told it wasn't possible and my days will be carried forward. From checking it out it seems to me that they can only do that with my consent. If anyone is trying to pull a fast one it is my employer. The reason this is becoming a last minute situation is because I was led to believe there was no other option.

TheQuietFella

WoolyJumper wrote: »

Honestly not trying to pull a fast one. To be fair I asked them for those days off as soon as I started and told it wasn't possible and my days will be carried forward. From checking it out it seems to me that they can only do that with my consent. If anyone is trying to pull a fast one it is my employer. The reason this is becoming a last minute situation is because I was led to believe there was no other option.

What days did you request when you started?

minidazzler

What industry are you in ?

How long is 'not long' ?

Holidays are usually granted with both parties consent, not just one .

jimmycrackcorm

WoolyJumper wrote:

Honestly not trying to pull a fast one. To be fair I asked them for those days off as soon as I started and told it wasn't possible and my days will be carried forward. From checking it out it seems to me that they can only do that with my consent. If anyone is trying to pull a fast one it is my employer. The reason this is becoming a last minute situation is because I was led to believe there was no other option.

It's a pretty much standard contract clause that the employer can direct when holidays can be taken. Normally it shouldn't be an issue to accommodate the employees wishes, but no business could operate if all the employees decided that they could dictate taking the same time off for example.

drunkmonkey

Book your holidays well in advance. If you don't want to carry them maybe they'll pay you for them.

TheQuietFella

This person obviously in my opinion let it drag with the Christmas season clearly in mind and now they have been told 'no' you can't take your holidays overhe festive season. I would assume they work in retail or the hostelry industry!

drunkmonkey

TheQuietFella wrote: »

This person obviously in my opinion let it drag with the Christmas season clearly in mind and now they have been told 'no' you can't take your holidays overhe festive season. I would assume they work in retail or the hostelry industry!

Parents probably got them a laptop when they were 10

Dakota Dan

It could be worse, you could have feck all holidays like me.

They must have no availability
When they asked you did you have any holidays planned in the interview, what did you say?

Time off over Christmas is normally organized well in advance

Just look forward to the extra days next year

Would not be fair to the other people working there to see a newbie start and get their time off over Christmas (unless stated in the interview)

mrslancaster

op AFAIK if you work as an employee then you are entitled to 4 working weeks holidays in a leave year that you work 1365 hours,
or one third of a working week for each month in the leave year that you work 117 hours,
or 8% of hours worked to a max of 4 working weeks.

holidays are determined by the employer as long as they consider your family responsibilities & opportunities for rest & recreation.

the leave year used to run from 1st April but that might have changed.

when you have worked 8 months in a leave year you are entitled to 2 weeks unbroken holidays.

you can agree to carry over holidays to the next leave year but should take them within the next 6 months.

does your contract say what the company leave year is? a lot of companies holiday year runs from Jan to DEC but others go from the date employment starts so it depends. can you check your contract?

davo10

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Book your holidays well in advance. If you don't want to carry them maybe they'll pay you for them.

This is actually illegal, employers cannot "buy" your holiday leave from you, the only time an employer can pay you for untaken leave is when you are leaving your job.

Op, the dates on which you take holiday leave are at the discretion of your employer and can be based on business needs. Employers must have enough staff at all times so if other employees have already booked holidays on the dates you want, or, the period during which you want holidays is particularly busy e.g. Christmas period, then yes, your employer can refuse your request, leave can be carried over and taken in the new year. You knew from the the time you started that you would not be allowed leave at this time so they were upfront with you.

Tzardine

davo10 wrote: »

This is actually illegal, employers cannot "buy" your holiday leave from you, the only time an employer can pay you for untaken leave is when you are leaving your job.

I am open to correction, but I believe that this only applies to the statutory 20 days. I.e. if you had 25 days holidays a year they can pay you for the unused 5 days

mrslancaster

I thought it was 4 working weeks and not 20 days - eg if someone works a 6 day week then they would be due 24 days annual leave

davo10

mrslancaster wrote: »

I thought it was 4 working weeks and not 20 days - eg if someone works a 6 day week then they would be due 24 days annual leave

No, you are entitled to 20 days holidays per year if you are in full time employment, any additional days are dependent on contract of employment. In other words, no matter how much leave you accrue on the hours you work, the employer only has to give you 20 days holidays unless you agreed more in your contract of employment.

mrslancaster

surely if someone works a 6 day week they are entitled to 4 of their working weeks as annual leave. I can't find where it states 20 days..

edit: my curiosity got the better of me so I looked at the OWT Act..

Part 3 - Holidays; Section 19 (6) References in this section to a working week shall be construed as references to the number of days that the employee concerned usually works in a week.

_Brian

Nothing wrong with refusing annual leave requests particularly in this busy season. It’s better they offer to carry them over rather than those idiot employers who insist I taken leave is dead and lost at the end of the year.

Also I wouldn’t make much fuss because they may insist you use them before end Feb when really they are of little use to people.

Plan your time better next year.

drunkmonkey

davo10 wrote: »

This is actually illegal, employers cannot "buy" your holiday leave from you, the only time an employer can pay you for untaken leave is when you are leaving your job.

Can you point me to where it's illegal. It's not illegal to pay up for some unused holidays.

KellyXX

Ive worked for a company who would not let you take your annual leave at the end of the year and would actually take them off you if you hadnt used them before the year rolled over.
The same company you to mess around with the holidays of the people they wanted to get rid of too. Like not give them the days they wanted when applying for them.

mrslancaster

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Can you point me to where it's illegal. It's not illegal to pay up for some unused holidays.

Maybe this?

OWT Act, Section 11, Article 7 (2) 2. The minimum period of paid annual leave may not be replaced by an allowance in lieu, except where the employment relationship is terminated.

As posted previously, it is probably ok to be paid for anything over the statutory minimum of 4 working weeks. Maybe it's to do with Health & Safety regulations in the workplace.

KellyXX

mrslancaster wrote: »

Maybe this?

OWT Act, Section 11, Article 7 (2) 2. The minimum period of paid annual leave may not be replaced by an allowance in lieu, except where the employment relationship is terminated.

As posted previously, it is probably ok to be paid for anything over the statutory minimum of 4 working weeks. Maybe it's to do with Health & Safety regulations in the workplace.

So how come companies can have a "use it or lose it" attitude to leave then?

mrslancaster

KellyXX wrote: »

So how come companies can have a "use it or lose it" attitude to leave then?

I've worked for companies in the past with that policy - they are probably ok to say that as it seems to be very common.

daheff

KellyXX wrote: »

So how come companies can have a "use it or lose it" attitude to leave then?

because people have not stood their ground (or they have and the company caved in on the quiet). If you have a statutory entitlement the company cannot take that away.


That said, i do think there are some paragraphs about carrying leave over, but that they must be used within a short period of time.

KellyXX

daheff wrote: »

because people have not stood their ground (or they have and the company caved in on the quiet). If you have a statutory entitlement the company cannot take that away.


That said, i do think there are some paragraphs about carrying leave over, but that they must be used within a short period of time.

People did stand their ground and still lost their hols.

davo10

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Can you point me to where it's illegal. It's not illegal to pay up for some unused holidays.

Annual Leave and Termination of Employment.

It is illegal under the Organisation of Working Time Act, 1997 for an employer to pay an allowance in lieu of the minimum statutory holiday entitlement of an employee unless the employment relationship is terminated. In general, your annual leave is calculated on the basis of hours worked.

If you are leaving a job you are entitled to receive payment for any outstanding annual leave and public holidays due to you.


http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/annual_leave_public_holidays.html

davo10

mrslancaster wrote: »

I thought it was 4 working weeks and not 20 days - eg if someone works a 6 day week then they would be due 24 days annual leave

Statutory entitlement is 20 days, anything beyond that is negotiable.

Rubberchikken

You requested days off after just starting. Youve been told you cant have the ones you want now due to them being unavailable so you should just accept that. Its similar in our workplace. Use them in the New year

_Brian

KellyXX wrote: »

People did stand their ground and still lost their hols.

It’s illegal to remove an employees holiday entitlement as they are a statutory allowance, not something at the give and take of employers.

The responsibility is on the employer to ensure the employee uses their holidays within the required timeframe or allow carry them over.

Employees allowing this happen are being bullied and as such should stand their ground. Now, one has to ask why employees are ending the year with holidays in the first place, considering most contracts likely insist they are used.

If you wish carry over holidays this discussion needs to be had well in advance, I’d suggest 2 months. This allows fair time to use said leave of the request to carry them is refused, this is fair to both sides. If with two months remaining annual leave is being denied by the employer and days maynje lost I would be making a written request and asking for written denial, I would follow that up with a formal complaint at being denied your statutory entitlement. Having this paperwork in your hand and going to a solicitor would make things very easy.

WoolyJumper

Thanks for replies. I decided to leave it go, if for no other reason than I'd be doing someone a favour.

I don't want to get into the ins and outs of the situation but just say that its not a great company to work for and I have been shafted a few times already. To clear a few things up, its not retail or hospitality and generally my department wind down for Christmas before a busy January and they are generally easy going with people from my department taking holidays around Christmas. Of course I wouldn't be requesting time off if all the senior staff were working. It was them that told I should try to get it off

I was temporarily asked to help out in another department and this is probably why they won't let me take my days. I was doing them a favour by doing this but got very little thanks for it in the end and basically how the whole situation was handled made me not want to do them any more favours.

In my contract the year ends the 31st and states you should take your holidays within the year but can be carried forward with prior agreement. They are happy to use the contract against me when it suits them but in situations like this it goes ignored and you can never really get a straight answer from anyone. But like I said I'll work the days just because it will help out someone who really deserves a break.

KellyXX

_Brian wrote: »

It’s illegal to remove an employees holiday entitlement as they are a statutory allowance, not something at the give and take of employers.

The responsibility is on the employer to ensure the employee uses their holidays within the required timeframe or allow carry them over.

Employees allowing this happen are being bullied and as such should stand their ground. Now, one has to ask why employees are ending the year with holidays in the first place, considering most contracts likely insist they are used.

If you wish carry over holidays this discussion needs to be had well in advance, I’d suggest 2 months. This allows fair time to use said leave of the request to carry them is refused, this is fair to both sides. If with two months remaining annual leave is being denied by the employer and days maynje lost I would be making a written request and asking for written denial, I would follow that up with a formal complaint at being denied your statutory entitlement. Having this paperwork in your hand and going to a solicitor would make things very easy.

Easier said thann done. I doubt they were the only company in IReland to implement a use it or lose it policy for holidays.