Bookmaker Online Account Closure

Division

Two people open an online account with a bookmaker.

Both deposit €1,000.

(A) places €500 per bet and over 3 months makes a total profit of €5,000.

(B) bets €500 per bet, loses his first €1,000 deposit and a further €2,000 over the same 3 month period.

The bookmaker decides to stop accepting bets from (A) and closes their account.

The bookmaker increases the betting limits per bet of (B).

Why are they allowed to do this in Ireland?

There are 10,000+ people in Ireland who fit the (A) profile so it's a common enough issue.

lifeandtimes

Division wrote: »

Two people open an online account with a bookmaker.

Both deposit €1,000.

(A) places €500 per bet and over 3 months makes a total profit of €5,000.

(B) bets €500 per bet, loses his first €1,000 deposit and a further €2,000 over the same 3 month period.

The bookmaker decides to stop accepting bets from (A) and closes their account.

The bookmaker increases the betting limits per bet of (B).

Why are they allowed to do this in Ireland?

There are 10,000+ people in Ireland who fit the (A) profile so it's a common enough issue.

Because it says so in their terms and conditions that they can close an account if they wish. These terms are agreed upon when opening the account.

If A or B don't agree that it may happen to them then they shouldn't open an account

SteelyDanJalapeno

Because they're not in the business to lose money.

Division

From a basic viewpoint it seems like a clear case of discrimination.

Publicans can't pick and choose who they serve so long there are no other circumstances that justify them in refusing to serve someone as it's discrimination and people have successfully sued even in the case of pointless signs such as management reserve the right to refuse service.

Why can the bookmaker do it if the publican can't?

Division

TiltedBrain wrote: »

Because they're not in the business to lose money.

That should be irrelevant in this example from a legal standpoint.

nuac

Mod
Why should this be in Legal Discussion?

helimachoptor

this happened to me a while back.

I started of with a large amount and bet on "sure things" i.e. united up 3-0 with then mins left, put on 1K and get €25 back type bets

Did this for a while until i got a phone call. But as said above, it's in their T&C's.

runawaybishop

Division wrote: »

From a basic viewpoint it seems like a clear case of discrimination.

Publicans can't pick and choose who they serve so long there are no other circumstances that justify them in refusing to serve someone as it's discrimination and people have successfully sued even in the case of pointless signs such as management reserve the right to refuse service.

Why can the bookmaker do it if the publican can't?

Discrimination isn't illegal, except on the 9 grounds. Publicans can indeed refuse to serve anyone as long as it isn't under one of the 9 grounds.

jimmycrackcorm

Division wrote:

Why can the bookmaker do it if the publican can't?

Can you explain it by replacing bookie with house insurer and compare trading premiums where no claims are made vs a customer who lives in a flood plain and states to make claims?

Would it be reasonable for the insurer to continually have to insure such a risk to the detriment of their business?

lifeandtimes

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Can you explain it by replacing bookie with house insurer and compare trading premiums where no claims are made vs a customer who lives in a flood plain and states to make claims?

Would it be reasonable for the insurer to continually have to insure such a risk to the detriment of their business?

This isn't insurance where people pay a premium or subscription each month

This a recreational thing for people who Wollongong deposit their money knowing they may win or lose .

But as said above, it's in their terms and conditions. Like all companies and agreements taken out with them you must abide by them and if it says they can stop any account as they wish then they can.

The pub reference is good, they're no discrimination here against someone who's making a lot of money

Simple as that really.

Division

I get the points that are being. They can restrict their customers to losing bettors without recourse. I was curious about the legislation that allows this and the rule about exception to the 9 points answers this unfortunately from the customers perspective.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Open accounts on exchanges. Bet what you want there as they can a % of every win

Peregrinus

Division wrote: »

Two people open an online account with a bookmaker.

Both deposit €1,000.

(A) places €500 per bet and over 3 months makes a total profit of €5,000.

(B) bets €500 per bet, loses his first €1,000 deposit and a further €2,000 over the same 3 month period.

The bookmaker decides to stop accepting bets from (A) and closes their account.

The bookmaker increases the betting limits per bet of (B).

Why are they allowed to do this in Ireland?

There are 10,000+ people in Ireland who fit the (A) profile so it's a common enough issue.

As others have pointed out, unless A's account has been selected for closure on the basis of sex, sexual orientation, ethnicity, disablity, etc, there is nothing illegal here.

Nor should there be. If you're not obliged to make bets with the bookmaker, why should he be obliged to make bets with you? A bet is only made where both parties want to make it.

joeguevara

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

This is not true. Firstly there is no such thing as a winner when playing the house as the odds are in the houses favour. Casinos actually go out of their way to attract the biggest gamblers because they know they eventually lose. There is no point having losers as eventually they run out of money.

But to the OP, it does seem that the online bookmakers close accounts where there is a run of wins. It is not illegal, as it is not a public premises. Discrimination law doesn’t apply as others have said it is not on the nine grounds but secondly it is virtual. Equality law is only for discrimination i bricks and mortar establishments. It is similar to boards blocking you. What can you do?

Thirdly, even if you could argue that it does apply, Irish Law doesn’t apply. Have a look at the terms and conditions that you signed up to when opening the account. Yes the ones you didn’t read and clicked through. Firstly it says that they can close account for no reason. Secondly the law of some esoteric tax haven applies. No point arguing Irish law because you entered and agreed to that contract.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

ArmaniJeanss

joeguevara wrote: »

Thirdly, even if you could argue that it does apply, Irish Law doesn’t apply. Have a look at the terms and conditions that you signed up to when opening the account. Yes the ones you didn’t read and clicked through. Firstly it says that they can close account for no reason. Secondly the law of some esoteric tax haven applies. No point arguing Irish law because you entered and agreed to that contract.

For them to be licensed to take bets from Irish-based customers wouldn't they have had to agree that Irish law supercedes their t&cs?
Also I'd be surprised if merely agreeing to a t&c makes it binding, like surely they couldn't sneak in a 'take your kidney' clause that you click without reading fully and be held to this.

As for closing winning accounts, seems fine to me and a valid business decision.

Fred Swanson

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ArmaniJeanss

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

But they must hold an Irish remote bookmakers license in order to trade with Irish based customers.
http://www.ifsc.ie/feature.aspx?idfeature=167684

So therefore (a logical leap here which may be wrong) any laws associated with having this license will automatically override the IOM/Alderney laws, just for Irish customers. If companies don't wish to accept this then they don't apply for the Irish RBL but can't take bets from Irish customers.

Peregrinus

For what it's worth, if they are carrying on business in Ireland - i.e. making contracts with Irish residents - the fact that the countracts of governed by Irish law wouldn't exempt them from having to comply, in the conduct of their business, with applicable Irish laws. You can't evade the Equal Status Act by including a choice-of-law clause in your contracts that picks the law of a jurisdiction with no similar legislation.