M1/R132 - Dublin Airport Access

marno21

Fingal County Council are proposing improvements to access of Dublin Airport. What these will be is not yet clear.

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/eib-loan-to-help-tackle-airport-traffic-snarls-36393801.html

Idbatterim

I read about this. I am out at the airport frequently enough, I never have to wait more than one rotation of the lights to get in or out of the airport. Compared to the likes of the traffic situation in the city centre, the need for the bridge over the dodder and the farce of traffic when you come over the east link bridge northbound, this is mad stuff in my opinion!

L1011

Idbatterim wrote: »

I read about this. I am out at the airport frequently enough, I never have to wait more than one rotation of the lights to get in or out of the airport. Compared to the likes of the traffic situation in the city centre, the need for the bridge over the dodder and the farce of traffic when you come over the east link bridge northbound, this is mad stuff in my opinion!

FCC and SDCC, more than DLRCC/Corpo, seem to ensure they actually have funding for road projects - if FCC didn't do this it would be on something else on their long list like dualling the R132 further

plodder

Getting in and out of the airport (to/from the M1) is not the typical problem in my experience. There can be long queues approaching the roundabout from the Santry side. I think the traffic lights on the roundabout are a big part of the problem though.

sdanseo

Six weeks after Leo un-shelves Metro North, the Independent report it to be shelved - implying indefinitely.

They really are a bastion of fantastic journalism.

Kermit.de.frog

Was out there today and the roundabout really backing up the airport campus on the main exit road.

Any word on if/when flyovers will be provided here? Can't see this situation lasting much longer without serious tailbacks.

With the increasing traffic numbers and "Airport Central" complex to open too....

JupiterKid

I thought a flyover was planned at this roundabout years ago?

Donegal Storm

Already a thread on it here though I haven't heard anything since that article.

There were new traffic lights installed and some small changes made over the past year though still seems to be frequent tailbacks.

This (presumably outdated) masterplan for Airport Central shows a double-deckered road with a flyover across the roundabout

marno21

Donegal Storm wrote: »

Already a thread on it here though I haven't heard anything since that article.

There were new traffic lights installed and some small changes made over the past year though still seems to be frequent tailbacks.

This (presumably outdated) masterplan for Airport Central shows a double-deckered road with a flyover across the roundabout

This is mindbogglingly stupid. This just moves the congestion to the M1 interchange

The M1 interchange as a signalised roundabout is ridiculously outdated and obsolete. It should be converted into a freeflow interchange if possible

Kermit.de.frog

A 5 or 6 level stack would be perfect here.




We need two of these. One to replace airport roundabout and the other the M1 interchange.

Something like this for the M1 interchange would be a start (with 6 lanes each way to Drumcondra)

Pete_Cavan

For the M1 J2, surely all that has to be done is build a bridge from the south bound off ramp over to the road approaching the airport roundabout? Traffic coming from the airport to get on the M1 south bound can use the existing set up but no longer has conflicts with traffic coming off the M1. That new bridge ties in with the grade separation of the roundabout, you just need to build a ramp for traffic coming off the north bound carriageway of the M1 to get up to it.

If the airport roundabout is being grade separated, sorting out the M1 interchange shouldn't be too difficult given there is no easterly traffic movements to be accommodated.

SeanW

I'd imagine the M1 interchange could be made a trumpet junction without too much difficulty.

Carawaystick

A New traffic Light has been installed on the R132N approaching the Airport roundabout, where there was only a yield sign.

The cycle lane on the R132 has had the vegetation that covered most of it cleared, so there is no longer the 6" wide bidirectional cycle track opposite the Coachman's pub.

The M1/M1 roundabout junction was the most stupid design, a freeflow Trumpet could have been built with only one bridge over the mainline, but the decision to allow bewildered drivers do a u-turn (only if coming from the north) trumped sanity...

JupiterKid

Yes, building the M1 airport interchange as a roundabout was incredibly short-sighted and whoever made that decision should be horsewhipped. It should have been a free flow trumpet layout.

The roundabout at the R132/airport itself needs to be grade separated at this stage.

SeanW

Carawaystick wrote: »

The M1/M1 roundabout junction was the most stupid design, a freeflow Trumpet could have been built with only one bridge over the mainline, but the decision to allow bewildered drivers do a u-turn (only if coming from the north) trumped sanity...

You mean, there was an actual reason for that? It looked like some dumb attempt at saving money by not having free-flow. That would have been idiotic as well, but at least understandably so.

:mad:

Idbatterim

will we arrive at the usual Irish situation? another fortune spent for some mickey mouse "improvements"!

Kermit.de.frog

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

A 5 or 6 level stack would be perfect here.




We need two of these. One to replace airport roundabout and the other the M1 interchange.

Something like this for the M1 interchange would be a start (with 6 lanes each way to Drumcondra)

2 pictures which perfectly show how not to do infrastructure, also nobody is going to fund this to the tune of 90 cents on the euro in the same way the US govt did with road layouts such as these.

Kermit.de.frog

Deleted User wrote: »

2 pictures which perfectly show how not to do infrastructure

Load of nonsense. That's what motorway junctions should look like. Not the carry on in this country.

Cookiemunster

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Load of nonsense. That's what motorway junctions should look like. Not the carry on in this country.

That's what they should look like in disfunctional countries where public transport doesn't exist. Ireland should be following the example of European countries not the USA.

Kermit.de.frog

Eh, no, that is what proper motorway junctions look like. That is doing it right.

Public transport is irrelevant so I don't know why you're bringing that up.

Cookiemunster

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Eh, no, that is what proper motorway junctions look like. That is doing it right.

Public transport is irrelevant so I don't know why you're bringing that up.

On the contrary, proper public transport reduces the need for roads. Most European capital airports have rail links. Hopefully the metro finally gets built and takes thousands of cars away from the airport.

Kermit.de.frog

This is not about the need for roads though.

It's about building them right in the first place, thereby not having to come back and upgrade them later at huge expense, which we have been rubbish at.

The junction in question on this thread is an epic example. What halfwit thought sticking a roundabout on the M1 here was a good idea?

These things should not happen. Just build correctly in the first place.

Cookiemunster

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

This is not about the need for roads though.

It's about building them right in the first place, thereby not having to come back and upgrade them later at huge expense, which we have been rubbish at.

The junction in question on this thread is an epic example. What halfwit thought sticking a roundabout on the M1 here was a good idea?

These things should not happen. Just build correctly in the first place.

No junction in Ireland has ever needed to be built like the examples you've provided. We simply don't have the traffic levels to justify anything like it and will never need something like it at the airport.

Charles Babbage

Cookiemunster wrote: »

No junction in Ireland has ever needed to be built like the examples you've provided. We simply don't have the traffic levels to justify anything like it and will never need something like it at the airport.

The examples provided were a bit over the top. However, the point is well made about the M1 junction, who decided to build a roundabout when traffic is only going towards the airport and something like a trumpet design was needed?


We are an island of 6.5 million, which may become 7 or 8. There is a limit to the road infrastructure that will ever been needed, but decisions should not be made which do not reflect a reasonable future.

Rulmeq

Cookiemunster wrote: »

That's what they should look like in disfunctional countries where public transport doesn't exist. Ireland should be following the example of European countries not the USA.

Like Frankfurt?


https://www.google.com/maps/@50.0543018,8.6026399,1157m/data=!3m1!1e3

They have an S-bahn, and an ICE station in their airport.

Cookiemunster

Charles Babbage wrote: »

The examples provided were a bit over the top. However, the point is well made about the M1 junction, who decided to build a roundabout when traffic is only going towards the airport and something like a trumpet design was needed?


We are an island of 6.5 million, which may become 7 or 8. There is a limit to the road infrastructure that will ever been needed, but decisions should not be made which do not reflect a reasonable future.

I agree completely that we should build infrastructure correctly first time, but that doesn't mean we should be going down the US route that kermit.de.frog wants. He seems to have a fetish for US road infrastructure and has claimed in previous threads that Ireland and Europe need to learn from the US and build wider roads.

Rulmeq wrote: »

Like Frankfurt?
https://www.google.com/maps/@50.0543018,8.6026399,1157m/data=!3m1!1e3

They have an S-bahn, and an ICE station in their airport.

That's a standard cloverleaf junction. Nothing wrong with that. And it's magnitudes of order smaller than the examples given above. Probably because it has S-Bahn and ICE stations negate the need for such monstrous junctions.

Rulmeq

Cookiemunster wrote: »

That's a standard cloverleaf junction. Nothing wrong with that. And it's magnitudes of order smaller than the examples given above. Probably because it has S-Bahn and ICE stations negate the need for such monstrous junctions.

Yep, and it doesn't even take up much more land space than the one at Dublin airport, despite handling multiple motorways.


https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4282762,-6.2205182,1287m/data=!3m1!1e3


I used to commute from Kelsterbach for a while, and the speed at which they built that ICE station, and the new runway were amazing (considering how long it has taken them to build the new airport in Berlin). I barely recongised the place when I went back there.

Chris_5339762

Its also the busiest junction in Europe, with about 320,000 AADT.

AugustusMinimus

Cookiemunster wrote: »

No junction in Ireland has ever needed to be built like the examples you've provided. We simply don't have the traffic levels to justify anything like it and will never need something like it at the airport.

Completely disagree. We constantly build under capacity junction, which take the same land space and at times cost more than the higher capacity junction.

The M6/M17/M18 junction is a disgrace. Most countries in Europe wouldn’t think twice about building a stack where 2 motorways cross. Yet we are still stuck in Roundabout cloud cuckoo land.

It is an absolute disgrace that the M1 junction was not built as a trumpet. What on Earth were they thinking?

Idbatterim

I can’t wait to see what expensive inadequate crap design they come up with next ...

Cookiemunster

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Completely disagree. We constantly build under capacity junction, which take the same land space and at times cost more than the higher capacity junction.

The M6/M17/M18 junction is a disgrace. Most countries in Europe wouldn’t think twice about building a stack where 2 motorways cross. Yet we are still stuck in Roundabout cloud cuckoo land.

It is an absolute disgrace that the M1 junction was not built as a trumpet. What on Earth were they thinking?

Try reading all my posts on the subject. I advocate building correctly first time, but following European examples rather than those American monstrosities.

marno21

It's a weird one in Ireland.

We are consistently building mainline alignments of roads that are well above the required capacity, resulting in overspecced and wonderful to drive roads (M3, M9, M17 to name a few).

Then we come along and ruin it all by these ridiculously under-powered junctions that are either crammed with traffic or turn into massive capital projects to upgrade them. In many cases, the junctions are in stupid locations that limit upgrading of them.

There is no need for the type of highway interchanges you'd see in Atlanta or Houston, but the correct junctions for the correct road capacity would be handy.

Motorways and dual carriageways ending at terminal roundabouts, at grade junctions on busy routes, all problematic. This is more of a legacy issue than an issue going forward however, many of the new roads being designed at present don't suffer this flaw.

AugustusMinimus

marno21 wrote: »

It's a weird one in Ireland.

We are consistently building mainline alignments of roads that are well above the required capacity, resulting in overspecced and wonderful to drive roads (M3, M9, M17 to name a few).

Then we come along and ruin it all by these ridiculously under-powered junctions that are either crammed with traffic or turn into massive capital projects to upgrade them. In many cases, the junctions are in stupid locations that limit upgrading of them.

There is no need for the type of highway interchanges you'd see in Atlanta or Houston, but the correct junctions for the correct road capacity would be handy.

Motorways and dual carriageways ending at terminal roundabouts, at grade junctions on busy routes, all problematic. This is more of a legacy issue than an issue going forward however, many of the new roads being designed at present don't suffer this flaw.

Poor junction design is by far the biggest issue with urban road systems in Ireland. By far.

marno21

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Poor junction design is by far the biggest issue with urban road systems in Ireland. By far.

Even if you take a look at some of the interurbans

M6 - ends at a roundabout; frequently congested
M7 - ends at a freeflow junction with 2 other motorways, one of which leads to Galway, the other carries a large volume of M7 traffic southwards and ends 3km before a village
M8 - ends at the most congested at grade junction in Ireland
M9 - ends at a roundabout with the N24, connecting to a grade seperated roundabout with the N25
M17 - ends at a roundabout with the old N17 before continuing as dual carraigeway

AugustusMinimus

marno21 wrote: »

Even if you take a look at some of the interurbans

M6 - ends at a roundabout; frequently congested
M7 - ends at a freeflow junction with 2 other motorways, one of which leads to Galway, the other carries a large volume of M7 traffic southwards and ends 3km before a village
M8 - ends at the most congested at grade junction in Ireland
M9 - ends at a roundabout with the N24, connecting to a grade seperated roundabout with the N25
M17 - ends at a roundabout with the old N17 before continuing as dual carraigeway

At least the M8 is finally being solved.

The M6 ending is a joke. Why on earth didn’t they build a trumpet here as well. Mind boggling. Galway must have about 50% of all urban at grade roundabouts in the country. Never seen anything like it. The road planning in east Galway City is the worst I’ve ever seen.

Chris_5339762

The Galway one I can understand, either side of the trumpet would just head into two other signalised junctions anyway so it would make precisely no difference overall. Also, its only there as it stands for so long because the original GCOB plans got shelved otherwise it would be meaningless.

The M8 one at Dunkettle is a disgrace but at least thats getting sorted. The M7 flows straight into the N18 at a nice junction, its the N21 that is the problem. The M9 I agree is utterly ridiculous and the M17 one probably should have had a proper junction at Tuam and a roundabout with the old N17 north of Tuam to slow traffic.

AugustusMinimus

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

The Galway one I can understand, either side of the trumpet would just head into two other signalised junctions anyway so it would make precisely no difference overall. Also, its only there as it stands for so long because the original GCOB plans got shelved otherwise it would be meaningless.

The M8 one at Dunkettle is a disgrace but at least thats getting sorted. The M7 flows straight into the N18 at a nice junction, its the N21 that is the problem. The M9 I agree is utterly ridiculous and the M17 one probably should have had a proper junction at Tuam and a roundabout with the old N17 north of Tuam to slow traffic.

N67 to M6 is not freeflow while it would be as a trumpet. Same land take any a tiny bit more expense.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

What the actual f**k have they done to the Dublin Airport roundabout? Did a child design the light sequence? :mad: :mad:

Any time those lights are out, there is never any traffic. Yet what they have done now is increase journey times by about 10-15 mins just on that round about alone. What was the point of all of that work?

Bummer1234

Dream Raspy Barbiturate wrote: »

What the actual f**k have they done to the Dublin Airport roundabout? Did a child design the light sequence? :mad: :mad:

Any time those lights are out, there is never any traffic. Yet what they have done now is increase journey times by about 10-15 mins just on that round about alone. What was the point of all of that work?

They where an absolute joke this morning at 9am, Back as far as the M1 and usually its free flowing at that time as far as the roundabout(before the works). I don't know what its like at 5/6/7am when the airport is coming up to its busiest but its worse than it was before the works.

Donegal Storm

The airport is adding approx 2 million extra passengers every year so that's hardly helping matters. Was just talking to someone this morning involved in the new airport local area plan and apparently it's to be made public late next month or early October so hopefully we'll see some plans then

Carawaystick

marno21 wrote: »

Even if you take a look at some of the interurbans

M6 - ends at a roundabout; frequently congested

Only 25% of the M6 ends, end at a roundabout, 75% of it ends at freeflow junctions

Kermit.de.frog

This junction will probably cost €100m to upgrade to freeflow.


That is the cost to taxpayers of stupidity and not doing things properly the first time.

Aontachtoir

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

This junction will probably cost €100m to upgrade to freeflow.


That is the cost to taxpayers of stupidity and not doing things properly the first time.

Or €100m spent on other road projects which had a higher cost-benefit ratio at the time.

Kermit.de.frog

Another example - J4 on the M1




Why is there a roundabout there?


What is wrong with these people?


The next exit on that road is also a roundabout so it makes zero sense.

Aontachtoir

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Another example - J4 on the M1

Why is there a roundabout there?


What is wrong with these people?


The next exit on that road is also a roundabout so it makes zero sense.

It makes sense to me. The roundabout prior to entering the road under motorway restrictions allows non-motorway traffic to use the full R125 all the way to the onramp. With the roundabout, non-motorway traffic can then turn around and avoid the motorway.

Am I missing something?

Kermit.de.frog

Aontachtoir wrote: »

It makes sense to me. The roundabout prior to entering the road under motorway restrictions allows non-motorway traffic to use the full R125 all the way to the onramp. With the roundabout, non-motorway traffic can then turn around and avoid the motorway.

Am I missing something?

Yes.

There is a roundabout a few hundred meters up the road with no other access in between.

Ergo that roundabout should not be there.

AugustusMinimus

Aontachtoir wrote: »

Or €100m spent on other road projects which had a higher cost-benefit ratio at the time.

Building it properly first time might not have cost anything more. In the case of M6 / M17 / M18 it would probably hAve been cheaper.

Junction designs in this country are nothing short of crazy.

nordydan

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Yes.

There is a roundabout a few hundred meters up the road with no other access in between.

Ergo that roundabout should not be there.

Do this allow U turns for tourists in hire cars leaving Dublin Airport??

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

Agree with you on this, seems pointless having a roundabout at that point.

Edit: Although, if you take a wrong turn at the Tesco roundabout and head for the motorway, you would have some journey to get back to where you were if there was no roundabout. Just a thought.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Another example - J4 on the M1
[image removed]
Why is there a roundabout there?
What is wrong with these people?
The next exit on that road is also a roundabout so it makes zero sense.

marno21

The roundabout at J3 on the M1 is there to end motorway restrictions at that point. There is a pedestrian crossing between the two roundabouts mentioned, which would not be allowed if that was a motorway (which it would be without the roundabout closest the M1).

Carawaystick

marno21 wrote: »

The roundabout at J3 on the M1 is there to end motorway restrictions at that point. There is a pedestrian crossing between the two roundabouts mentioned, which would not be allowed if that was a motorway (which it would be without the roundabout closest the M1).

And Bus stops, a bus could serve the bus stops and go back towards Airside.